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wawa
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 26-Mar-2017 23:18:10
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Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @ne_one
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If Hyperion can't find a way to make enough money with the OS to continue with its development then they should transfer the rights to someone who can. |
you are none in charge to tell them what they should or not do with whats icensed to them, right or wrong, as much as i am. its for the public to consider, if they are supporting this or not, thats all. |
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wawa
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 26-Mar-2017 23:23:16
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Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @ferrels
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2000 people who are fanatical about their hobby |
2000? so far i see some fifty votes in favour, of a crowd which is usally over-supportive. not that its impossible that someone takes their time and simply spams the poll with their votes via proxy over night. ;>)Last edited by wawa on 26-Mar-2017 at 11:24 PM.
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Hans
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 0:05:10
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Joined: 27-Dec-2003 Posts: 5067
From: New Zealand | | |
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| @BSzili
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BSzili wrote: @Hans
Hmm, I think we are talking in circles. I hope that the above is not the "official" stance of A-Eon, i.e. paying for the Warp3D Nova drivers and GLES2, but expecting the community to provide an OpenGL implementation for it |
TBH, your insistence that GLES2+ isn't OpenGL is a bit irksome. It is OpenGL, just with the old legacy crud removed. Incidentally, it's probably the most widely use OpenGL variant on the planet right now (all recent mobile devices have it). If you know GLES2+, then you can target pretty much all desktop & mobile devices.
To answer your question directly: I speak for myself, not A-EON. Of course A-EON have asked me about MiniGL => Warp3D Nova and other stuff. I'm just being realistic with how much I can personally do. We need to leapfrog a few steps to catch up to modern standards; there's no way I can deliver both legacy support and move things forward. Hence GLES2 support but no MiniGL upgrade.
Bear in mind that GLSL shaders were introduced ~13 years ago, so this old fixed pipline stuff is ancient by computer standards. I can't justify holding back progress with modern GL. You guys have no idea how much work emulating the old fixed pipeline is with all its little switches.**
So, I'm telling you what I told A-EON: you need to find new talent who is/are able and willing to make it happen.
Hans
** IMHO, the biggest pain in the backside is the fixed pipeline's rather complex multi-texturing scheme.
_________________ http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project. https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work. |
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Hans
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 0:10:09
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Joined: 27-Dec-2003 Posts: 5067
From: New Zealand | | |
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| @Mr_Capehill
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Mr_Capehill wrote: @Hans
From what I have seen, MiniGL is married with Warp3D. Adding support for Nova might be a massive patch to MiniGL - although I am not familiar with Nova at all. |
If I were doing the work, then I'd create a completely separate MiniGL context structure (taking care that the pointer that MiniGL's GLUT naughtily reads directly remains at the correct offset). So much of the internal data structures are for handling TCL in software, and so would be a waste for the Warp3D Nova backend.
So MiniGL would basically have two almost completely separate code bases with a common context creation function that chooses between the two.
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What about wrapper from W3D to Nova? That would keep things cleaner, maybe not as performant though.
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A Warp3D => Warp3D Nova wrapper would offer zero performance benefits because the biggest bottleneck would still be there (TCL done by CPU & all vertices streamed to VRAM).Last edited by Hans on 27-Mar-2017 at 12:12 AM.
_________________ http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project. https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work. |
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iggy
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 1:19:04
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Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @ferrels
Don't mind Steven, everyone. He likes to think of himself as one of those "IT pros" because of his education. I was working in his field BEFORE there were formalized programs of education. He IS right, its just a hobby, but even if only the former user base is considered, it has the potential to grow.
And THAT is coming from someone with a Business Degree, not a smarmy tech geek.
Remember, we aren't TRYING to sell to the commodity market, this IS aimed at hobbyist.
Some "Professionals" are just too self absorbed to get that.
Last edited by iggy on 27-Mar-2017 at 03:07 AM.
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ferrels
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 2:51:09
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Cult Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2005 Posts: 922
From: Arizona | | |
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| @wawa
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2000? so far i see some fifty votes in favour, of a crowd which is usally over-supportive. not that its impossible that someone takes their time and simply spams the poll with their votes via proxy over night. ;>) |
I was being extremely generous in light of Hyperion not giving out any real numbers. I would realistically put the number of OS4 users at less than 1000. Of course there will be a die-hard OS4 fan will want to dispute this and flame me for stating such a "low" number, but until A-Eon or Hyperion offer up some real numbers, I'll continue to state that there is no real market for OS4 or the A1222 except for the fanatics with deep pockets and very low expectations. |
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ferrels
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 3:08:44
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Joined: 20-Oct-2005 Posts: 922
From: Arizona | | |
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| @iggy
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Don't mind Steven, everyone. He likes to think of himself as one of those "IT pros" because of his education. I was working in his field BEFORE there were formalized programs of education. He IS right, its just a hobby, but even if only the former user base is considered, it has the potential to grow. And THAT is coming from someone with a Business Degree, not a smarmy tech geek. Remember, we aren't TRYING to see to the commodity market, this IS aimed at hobbyist. Some "Professionals" are just too self absorbed to get that. |
You must be intellectually challenged because all you do is turn to personal attacks when you think someone disagrees with you. Barring that, you use 2 or 3 different profiles on the same forum to attack people or to make yourself look like you have a strong argument. Yes, you are that transparent and self-absorbed. Self-absorbed? Yes, because you post the same rants on almost every Amiga forum on the net. And at no point did I imply that OS4 or the Tabor is aimed at anyone other than the hobbyist. But Amigang implied it with his survery and posting. So thank you for re-stating my position without even realizing it.
So since you missed it, I'll re-state it.....OS4 and the Tabor have no real market outside of the OS4 hobbyist community where the fanbase is fanatical, has deep pockets and very low expectations. OS4 has rough feature parity with Windows 98 and the Tabor will perform on par with systems from roughly the same time period as Windows 98.
I doubt that A-Eon will sell more than 200 Tabors which for such a small and shrinking community might be considered a success but isn't sustainable as a business model, hobbyland or otherwise. End of the road......Last edited by ferrels on 27-Mar-2017 at 03:30 AM. Last edited by ferrels on 27-Mar-2017 at 03:28 AM.
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Rob
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 7:02:33
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Joined: 20-Mar-2003 Posts: 6351
From: S.Wales | | |
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| @ferrels
As of October 2017 Amistore had 900 registered users who'd made around 3000 purchases between them, with each customer making at least one purchase.
A-EON have made 500 dual core Cyrus boards and 1000 Tabor boards. I don't know how many Cyrus boards AOTL had in their initial shipment but they all sold quickly and they are at least their second shipment. They reported that quite a number of their customers are either new to OS4 or completely new to Amiga. Amigakit aren't even selling boards or systems to customers yet, it seems they are too busy supplying stock to dealers.
I don't know if they'll be able to sell them all in a reasonable time frame of less than 2 years but I'm cautiously optimistic.
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ferrels
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 7:07:13
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Joined: 20-Oct-2005 Posts: 922
From: Arizona | | |
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| @Rob
I honestly hope I'm wrong. I'm just not seeing enough interest in the Tabor to make for a sustainable business. If OS4 got multi-core support and a decent browser and some modern productivity software I'd be much more optimistic. Heck, I'd buy a Tabor if those things materialized.
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klx300r
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 7:15:43
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Joined: 4-Mar-2008 Posts: 3837
From: Toronto, Canada | | |
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Rob wrote: @ferrels
As of October 2017 Amistore had 900 registered users who'd made around 3000 purchases between them, with each customer making at least one purchase.
A-EON have made 500 dual core Cyrus boards and 1000 Tabor boards. I don't know how many Cyrus boards AOTL had in their initial shipment but they all sold quickly and they are at least their second shipment. They reported that quite a number of their customers are either new to OS4 or completely new to Amiga. Amigakit aren't even selling boards or systems to customers yet, it seems they are too busy supplying stock to dealers.
I don't know if they'll be able to sell them all in a reasonable time frame of less than 2 years but I'm cautiously optimistic.
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well when I bought my X1000 I recall asking Trevor via email if there was going to be another successor to the X1000 as the X1000 sales were limited to the available PA-6T CPU's and his response was something to the effect that if all the X1000's in stock sell out and there's demand for a new model then yes else no. SO it's pretty basic business practice that IF there was no demand for the X5000 or Tabor then A-Eon would not be producing them _________________ ____________________________ c64-2sids, A1000, A1200T-060@50(finally working!),A4000-CSMKIII ! My Master Miggies- Amiga 1000 & AmigaOne X1000 ! mancave-ramblings X1000 I BELIEVE |
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BSzili
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 7:54:11
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Regular Member |
Joined: 16-Nov-2013 Posts: 447
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Hans
Your insistence that GLES2 is equals any desktop OpenGL implementation is also irksome. You also pretend that REGAL doesn't exist depending on what day it is, and add this weird footnotes about how hard it would be do everything from scratch. Very strange.
_________________ This is just like television, only you can see much further. |
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OlafS25
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 9:19:02
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Elite Member |
Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6339
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Rob
I bought Personal Paint 68k and am registered customer too and will certainly not buy Tabor. It says nothing about how many might buy Tabor in future. The same is true about the MorphOS counter often mentioned in discussions. If they sell all like planned gratulation from me. But I do not think that new expensive PPC hardware will add substantial numbers of new users. If I am wrong you should see lots of new users here or on amigans and of course the hyperion forum. Last edited by OlafS25 on 27-Mar-2017 at 09:21 AM.
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OlafS25
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 9:28:22
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Joined: 12-May-2010 Posts: 6339
From: Unknown | | |
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| @Zylesea
general you are right. Both MorphOS and AmigaOS with 68k integration like Petunia are more optimised for PPC than Aros PPC would be, on the other side Aros PPC 64bit, SMP and Gallium would be way ahead of the others so there might be interest again. |
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iggy
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 10:27:29
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Super Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @ferrels
You always fall back on that one, Steve. But, since I'm fairly sure I have more education than you, I can't be that stupid. And you tend to be rather repetitive and self absorbed yourself.
Further, IF you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed that I'm not a big advocate of either Tabor or OS4. But your prediction of sales numbers? Way off.
There shouldn't be any problem selling the initial 500.
The purchase does not require "deep pockets", its far cheap than other OS4 systems (other than running a crippled emulation under UAE).
And comparisons to Microsoft's older OS'? AmigaOS was more advanced than Windows98 IN '98. If it has only advanced this far since then, well not having over 300 programmers working on it IS a slight disadvantage.
ALTHOUGH the development pace at Microsoft is pretty underwhelming. Considering the resources devoted to it. And the competition? It all seems based on a OS developed when I was a child (UNIX).
As to business model, the economic sense of doing all that the community is doing, etc., you don't seem to be paying attention to your own argument. Its hobby oriented, man. We're doing what we WANT to do, and building what we WANT to have.
If YOU don't like it, you're free to leave.
Funny, I stopped in to edit out my last comment, as I didn't feel like interacting with you, yet again. But, overall, I feel pretty comfortable with my position. And you've help remind me of why I went back for the MBA, so I wasn't directly involved in a field primarily composed of intelligent eccentrics.
Last edited by iggy on 27-Mar-2017 at 10:34 AM.
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iggy
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 12:20:38
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Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @OlafS25
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...Aros PPC 64bit, SMP and Gallium would be way ahead of the others so there might be interest again |
Yes, the idea has grabbed my attention, and adding 68K integration might be possible.
In any case, I expect to see some continuing development of MorphOS, even with the announced fork to X64.
AROS PPC would have the advantage of being open. |
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wawa
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 13:32:42
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Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @iggy
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AmigaOS was more advanced than Windows98 IN '98. |
omg.. thats kind of opinion that made and still makes the whole amiga audience the laughing stock in the whole wide computer world.
amiga as a whole, not just the opereting system, might still have advantages in some particular areas over a pc with windows, may be even after '95, but insisting, that it was altogether more advanced, none will take you seriouly any more. im sure, you would have hard time to convince anyone, any amigalike ng system today is more advanced than windows 95 was, while they will still likely agree it is better than windows3.11, if not for the lack of software. |
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iggy
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 13:49:06
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Super Member |
Joined: 20-Oct-2010 Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA | | |
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| @wawa
Lack of software was a problem for all alternate OS', once PCs and Macs became entrenched. I think I've mentioned this before, but I was selling 68K based systems in the '80s and '90s.
My first real clue that we were doomed came when we were visited by a group of IBM engineers. They were impressed with what we were selling, comparing it to a mini IBM360 (our basic system supported four users). BUT, they also handed my a pre-release copy of Window3.0.
The first thing that worried me was the it was easy to figure out without previous instruction. The second was that the immense market of IBM compatible software would now be augmented by such an easy interface.
I gained no points by explaining to the head of the company that it seemed like the market might soon be reduced to primarily two companies.
As to the primary difference I see between older variant of Windows and AmigaOS? Windows was a GUI layered over DOS, and frankly DOS was a pretty horrifying rip off of CPM. And PCs relied on a crude bootstrapping system inherited from CPM, the bios. AmigaOS starts out in rom (rather like RISC OS), it has a fully incorporated GUI, and it can be augmented by further modules loaded from disk.
BTW - Why IBM went for Intel cpus and DOS, instead of Motorola cpus and Xenix is still a mystery to me.
But I think its further proof that the "experts" are actually pretty clueless. In short, the entire success of the PC is due more to market forces than any real superiority. And this "it will be better in the next generation" evolution has been painful, prolonged, and has cost far too much money.
We could have done SO much better if the standards hadn't congealed around the hot mess PCs once were.
Yeah, we kind of have it sorted out now. But look at what we've been through, just to get to where everything tends to resemble an Amiga. Last edited by iggy on 27-Mar-2017 at 01:50 PM.
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wawa
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 14:15:55
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Joined: 21-Jan-2008 Posts: 6259
From: Unknown | | |
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| @iggy
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They were impressed with what we were selling, comparing it to a mini IBM360 (our basic system supported four users). |
i dont get it.. you compare amiga (again, as a whole system, not only the sole os) with some mainframe from 60-70ties?
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BUT, they also handed my a pre-release copy of Window3.0. |
must be earlier than 95/98 though?
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The first thing that worried me was the it was easy to figure out without previous instruction. |
win3.x was though still crap in comparison with workbench, thats given.
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Windows was a GUI layered over DOS |
same as workbench is a gui over amigados, which you can boot to without the s-s same as you could to underlaying dos in win95. win95, be it gui over cruddy dos, gave you practicably usable multitasking though, which caught up with the major advantage of amiga.
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We could have done SO much better if the standards hadn't congealed around the hot mess PCs once were. |
you have stated, that amiga-os was better than windows 98. that seems to me that it was meant as a comment about reality, not "alternative facts", personal wishes or general alternative reality.
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But look at what we've been through, just to get to where everything tends to resemble an Amiga. |
i dont identify myself personally with a computer. besides even though amiga was leading edge in certain areas for a moment, almost none of its features is an original or absolutely exclusive invention.Last edited by wawa on 27-Mar-2017 at 03:49 PM.
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ferrels
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 18:00:55
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Joined: 20-Oct-2005 Posts: 922
From: Arizona | | |
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| @iggy
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Funny, I stopped in to edit out my last comment, as I didn't feel like interacting with you, yet again. But, overall, I feel pretty comfortable with my position. And you've help remind me of why I went back for the MBA, so I wasn't directly involved in a field primarily composed of intelligent eccentrics. |
You're so petty, and again, you have to resort to personal attacks and make claims about how you're so intelligent and educated compared to everyone else. At least you didn't resort to making several more personal attacks from your 3 other profiles on here, but I expect you will sooner or later.
I don't need to throw my education credentials around to prove I'm intelligent but since you brought it up, I'll stand my education up against yours any day. I have a B.S. in Computer Science from the Univ. of Tampa and a M.S in Computer Science from the Univ of Maryland and I also run a software development company that's doing quite well: http://lidarwidgets.com
So I'm well versed in what it takes to run a sustainable business as well as being quite capable in IT matters. I suspect you got an MBA from an online diploma mill.
You obviously have a problem with anger management and reading comprehension because in every post I've made on this thread, I asserted that the Tabor and OS4 will never step outside the realm of the hobbyist, but you're intent on picking a fight just for the sake of fighting. With that kind of anger and your inferiority complex you really should seek some professional help and spend your time doing something other than trolling every OS4/Amiga/AROS/MorphOS forum on the net to pick fights and throw your "education" around.
Last edited by ferrels on 27-Mar-2017 at 06:25 PM. Last edited by ferrels on 27-Mar-2017 at 06:13 PM. Last edited by ferrels on 27-Mar-2017 at 06:02 PM.
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Rob
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Re: Is the AmigaONE A1222 last best chance for OS4 market? Posted on 27-Mar-2017 19:26:44
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Joined: 20-Mar-2003 Posts: 6351
From: S.Wales | | |
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| @OlafS25
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general you are right. Both MorphOS and AmigaOS with 68k integration like Petunia are more optimised for PPC than Aros PPC would be, on the other side Aros PPC 64bit, SMP and Gallium would be way ahead of the others so there might be interest again. |
Is there proper support for Radeon video hardware in AROS. It's been a long time since I download an ISO but last time I checked even VESA modes didn't display correctly on my my 4670.
If that hasn't been addressed AROS PPC would be way behind OS4 and MorphOS in graphical capabilities. |
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