@blakespot

Quote:

I have a number of Amigas at home and a SAM 440ep-Flex here at the office that I use here and there for fun. My biggest wish is for more stability. I have to reset the unit every 4th app I run, it seems. I know there is no memory protection in AmigaOS, but figuring something out along those lines seems far more of a benefit than multicore support. Are the rest of you not having these app crash issues?

i agree on the stability front. however i don't have that level of instability on my AOS4 or my MOS installations. it took a while, but i basically found what software would cause crashes, and get rid of them. had to do it with both environments. one of these days i should share notes on what works and what works well on these systems based on my experience.

Quote:

My real desire and the thing that seems to clearly make most sense is getting AmigaOS running on x86/x64. Apple transitioned OS X from PPC to Intel basically seamlessly, relying notably on an emulation layer to do so. But it worked. Obviously Apple has many orders of magnitude more resources than the small AmigaOS group, but it seems some plan for getting such a transition mapped and worked through should be put together. My $.02.

yup, i think we'd all like to see AOS4 available natively on x64 kit. i just don't think it's realistic given the resources available. there's always AROS, although it's not quite the same thing.

-- eliyahu

_________________
"Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. When the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this is unreal."

...OK...

I'm not even going to direct this toward one person, since more than one of you questioned it, here goes...

YES, I believe a 1200 MHz 32 bit processor will be adequate to provide sufficient utility.
Why? I use devices like my cell phone and my tablet with increasing frequency over my desktop.
Those devices run at comparable speeds, "only" have 32 it cpus, and are more than enough to meet most of my needs.

And software? Most of what was mentioned, I don't use. But Chrome WAS brought up, AND if the source code was available to port it, it would run FINE on Tabor, just like on my phone or my tablet.

Other software with high utility like word processor and other office software?
Really doesn't need a lot of power.

And 1200 MHz is twice as fast as the Duron cpu I was running the first NT kerneled versions of Windows I used.

Also, my laptop, while an i7, is only 1000 Mhz faster than Tabor.

So, its not up to parity with current desktop offerings?
Its as fast as a low end laptop, and its running software that is NO WHERE NEAR as demanding as Windows.
Or have you all forgotten that OS4 is little more than a PPC port of OS3.X (and that you can run OS3.1 on a cpu that runs at less than 100th the speed of a Tabor board)?

So, no, I'm NOT kidding, and yes I AM serious.

Better yet, does anyone remember the concept that "the customer is always right"?
Let me explain it to you, IF there are 1000 buyers for this (and that is the low hanging fruit goal), then those buyers, who picked this as something they wanted were RIGHT.

Get it?

If you don't like it, just don't buy it.
But I think there will be enough customers for this to consider it a success.

Certainly more than there were for Barry Altman's so called "Amigas" (which would have satisfied the requirements some of you keep bringing up)

@iggy

i7 is much faster/MHz than e500...

Quote:

Certainly more than there were for Barry Altman's so called "Amigas"

Even X1000 was far more successful.

@eliyahu

Quote:

it took a while, but i basically found what software would cause crashes

errm, thats the obvious thing to do on a system without memory protection. but sounds as if he experiences crashes at random, or at least some that appear to be random, be it hadware or software issue. must say, thats was not a kind of experience i had with the genuine os, as long as i was seriously using it for some productivity last years. it would have driven me in rage.

Quote:

yup, i think we'd all like to see AOS4 available natively on x64 kit.

there is aros (multicore) for those who care.. sorry for stating the obvious once again.

@iggy

Quote:

And software? Most of what was mentioned, I don't use.

thats a cheap excuse. there is no software _everybody_ uses _for_certain_. photoshop is just an example. i still use the ancient ps7, wonder if this would work on some mac emu on os4, bet not.

however lets turn this around, and rather ask what people need and lack on os4 or amiga-ng in general in comparison to mainstream. the list is long and threads full of complaints numerous on forums. so no use to pretend os4 was on pair with win functionality wise, while not as bloated.

i really doubt there is demand for even those 500 units of that tabor board. few people are expressing interest, but most of whom were hoped to be target audience are now walking the walls and buying the available models of vampire like crazy;)..

Last edited by wawa on 30-Mar-2017 at 08:47 PM.

@wawa

Quote:

for those who care..

Who cares...

@pavlor

Quote:

Who cares...

obviously people care, more than me actually, as indicated by the relevant threads. except they are flashed by the "name", in which case the discussion goes in circles..

@wawa

Quote:

i really doubt there is demand for even those 500 units of that tabor board.

It's 1000 units actually.

Quote:

few people are expressing interest,

Not a lot of people said "Hey you know what, I'm gonna get an X1000" but they still sold a minimum of 300 units and that was 4-5 the projected price of TABOR. Not everyone is on English language forums either and how many Amiga users never register with a forum. What happens or is said on the forums is not the whole picture.

Quote:

but most of whom were hoped to be target audience are now walking the walls and buying the available models of vampire like crazy;)..

Because it always has to be either one or the other doesn't it. It's not as if anyone ever ends up with a small collection of Amigas or has a mix 68k and NG systems.

@Rob

Quote:

they still sold a minimum of 300 units

maybe. but i have never seen any actual reference or proof, if that is a real number. there always been riddles and smoke screens around that, as if it was somthing embarassing simply to name sales. so 300 units in case os x1k isnt that much different to what i have considered as maximum, namely around 250, which might be about whats the case.

Quote:

Because it always has to be either one or the other doesn't it. It's not as if anyone ever ends up with a small collection of Amigas or has a mix 68k and NG systems.

yes. collectors, who keep it all well originally packaged in a closet are probably the main target audience. seems so by the represented active user base.

@blakespot

I'm always somewhat courious when I see comments about instabliliy on NG Amigas. I've only had experience with an AmigaOne XEg3 which was generally pretty stable under OS4.1, and an AmigaOne X1000 which for me has been very stable. There is one 68k game that I like that does eventually crash (ArmyMiner v1.4), & programs like Odyssey 1.23 that crashe due to memory leaks. With these 2 examples I don't think that either the hardware or OS4 is the culpret. The X1000 hardware is high quality & very stable. If the Tabor is as well made as the X1000 is I don't think you will have stability problems with the Tabor once OS4.1 for it is out of bata. The Sam boards by all accounts seem to have more stability problems than the AEON boards have had.

_________________
- BCP
AmigaOne X1000 & Amiga 4000

Amiga Response Crew Users Group
Indianapolis, IN USA

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote: ...OK... Also, my laptop, while an i7, is only 1000 Mhz faster than Tabor.

Clock is not comparable as you know very well (remember e.g. the ugly P4 design..?). i7 totally wipes the floor with Tabor.
PPC (except ibm's POWER processors) is way behind x64.
I know you actually do know this fact.
And while you may favor ppc for your reasons, please stay with the facts.

And for real world experience: The i5 laptop I use form time to time is dimensons faster than the 7447B@1667MHz I use right now, albeit izts clock is only about 1000MHz faster.

Of coure you don't need maximum cpu power for everything, but for a general purpose computer there is one pretty valid rule of thunb: the more the merrier.

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@wawa

Quote:

maybe. but i have never seen any actual reference or proof, if that is a real number. there always been riddles and smoke screens around that, as if it was somthing embarassing simply to name sales. so 300 units in case os x1k isnt that much different to what i have considered as maximum, namely around 250, which might be about whats the case.

When Trevor was asked how many X1000 were made he said more than 200 and less then 2000. From various interviews, presentations and so on, I understand there were 3 production runs consisting of at least 100 boards. All of the boards they produced were sold. The lower figure would more closer to 300 and the higher figure closer to 500. There's obviously a good reason they went for an initial run of 500 X5000 boards. It shows they're confident they can sell at least that many.

Quote:

yes. collectors, who keep it all well originally packaged in a closet are probably the main target audience. seems so by the represented active user base.

Is that what you think is happening with most Vampire boards?

@wawa

I considered the idea, but crazy about sums it up, since once you start replacing the cpu, video, etc with an FPGA you might as well scrap the whole thing and replace it with a stand alone fpga board.

As to the boards Aeon is committed to building, sounds like a lot, but its not that many.

And you keep comparing the Vampire project with an NG system when there is no real comparison.
Even a slow NG system will spank anything built on an affordable fpga.
If you really wanted something faster, the only really economical solution would be an ASIC.
And there's not enough demand to make that practical (plus if you lock the Vampire design into fixed silicon, the bugs that will pop up won't be fixable).

So what's the practical solution?
Is it just an X64 system?
If it is, then I'm already using the right NG OS (or maybe I should switch to AROS, I'm not sure).

But the 68K? Motorola wrote that off almost two decades ago.
Do you really think a small band of hobbyist is going to somehow resurrect it?

Now who kidding themselves?

@Zylesea

Quote:

...but for a general purpose computer there is one pretty valid rule of thunb: the more the merrier

Agreed, but there IS a point where something less is still adequate.

And as to more, I have said (over & over &...) that I want a four core X5000.
Weird coincidence, 1000 MHz faster, twice the cores, hey "the more the merrier".

Could be worse, I could be advocating trying to resurrect the 68000.

Besides, WE both know we'll have X64 in our future.
Its everyone else here (except maybe the AROS guys), who aren't quite with it yet.

The primary reason I'm advocating (AND buying) PPCs right now? It will work with our current OS'.

And Tabor? Yeah, its got its faults, but its a relatively cheap PPC.

Oh and the i7 (i5, whatever, basically anything Core 2 and up), yeah per MHz faster.
Blindingly? Hell....nothing is fast enough really.

Last edited by iggy on 31-Mar-2017 at 12:00 AM.
Last edited by iggy on 30-Mar-2017 at 11:54 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 30-Mar-2017 at 11:49 PM.

Quote:

eliyahu wrote: i agree on the stability front. however i don't have that level of instability on my AOS4 or my MOS installations. it took a while, but i basically found what software would cause crashes, and get rid of them. had to do it with both environments. one of these days i should share notes on what works and what works well on these systems based on my experience.

I should clarify for you and @BCP. The crashing is indeed this or that app crashing, freezing the system. The system does not crash on its own or with apps that I know are stable. I am always downloading new things from OS4Depot and just trying them out, and some of these crash.

Indeed, given lack of memory protection, it's on me to find and not use apps that are unstable, if I intend to use such an OS, before I complain.


bp

_________________
:::: Amigas: 1000, 2000 '020, SAM440ep-Flex 733

Quote:

blakespot wrote: I have a number of Amigas at home and a SAM 440ep-Flex here at the office that I use here and there for fun. My biggest wish is for more stability. I have to reset the unit every 4th app I run, it seems. I know there is no memory protection in AmigaOS, but figuring something out along those lines seems far more of a benefit than multicore support. Are the rest of you not having these app crash issues? ... bp

that was the case for me back when I had my Samflex800 running OS4.1 Update 1 but nowadays with my X1000 and OS4.1-FE-Update 1 the overall stability is moons better

Last edited by klx300r on 31-Mar-2017 at 04:02 AM.

_________________
____________________________
c64-2sids, A1000, A1200T-060@50(finally working!),A4000-CSMKIII
! My Master Miggies- Amiga 1000 & AmigaOne X1000 !
mancave-ramblings
X1000 I BELIEVE

@Rob

[quote]There's obviously a good reason they went for an initial run of 500 X5000 boards. It shows they're confident they can sell at least that many.[/quot


Well we are still awaiting the chance to buy one of these boards here in the UK

_________________
Amigaone X5000/20 4GB Radeon RX 550 Polaris 12 AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition Update 1
Amiga 1200 Workbench 3.1.4
Amiga CD32

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: @iggy [quote] i really doubt there is demand for even those 500 units of that tabor board.

Yeah, and most people said that Trevor would never sell even the first production run of X1000's, while in truth, there were still some users trying to buy the X1000 after the stock from the 3rd production run had been sold out (or was it the 4th production run?).

I'm not interested in buying a Tabor myself, but I have little doubt that they will sell more than 500, if A-Eon/AmigaKit is able to keep the price below 500 Euros. I also think that Trevor and Matthew will probably lower the price of the Tabor, if/when sales numbers fail to meet their expectations. I don't think that they will just sit on their stock of boards, when they need users to purchase the many software titles they are funding. I think that both of them realize that software development and sales is just as important, if not MORE important than hardware sales, at this point in time.

@BoingBear

Quote:

I think that both of them realize that software development and sales is just as important, if not MORE important than hardware sales, at this point in time.

Trevor was talking about selling at cost and making the money on software sales but I think there has to be some profit in the hardware or their dealers might not be so keen.

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote: Trevor was talking about selling at cost and making the money on software sales but I think there has to be some profit in the hardware or their dealers might not be so keen.

A big part of the problem with the market is the fact that so many players are providing products at cost. Not only does that encourage a willingness to compromise but it also makes it extremely difficult to commit funds to new development.

The Amiga community seems to have no problem contributing to crowdfunded efforts for an endless number of books and videos so shelling out a few extra dollars to ensure some level of profitability shouldn't be a huge request.