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Boot_WB 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 15-May-2017 8:20:14
#101 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:

However, people like TMHGM are scourge of all boards.


@Pavlor

I almost posted something similar on one of your many pointless threads last year, but frankly it wasn't worth the candle. I'm very tempted not to bother posting this either, but...

In my opinion, based on observation over many years, as well as engagement:

Your and TripOS' postings specifically, with the occasional assist from one of the other forum dwellers, are toxic.

Your two attitudes and postings specifically poison this board more than any other.
Your two 'contributions' - always visible on the front page - have put me (and no doubt many others) off loggin in here again and again, for years.

You and TripOS (tmhg) are pretty much equal and opposite - you are two sides of the same coin.

I've seen babies born during this continuing arguement that demonstrate more wisdom and maturity than either of you two do.

@Olsen

Thanks for the insights, always intersting (and grounding) to hear the dreary reality as well as the publicly inferred 'dramatis personae' version.

@Number6

Thanks for keeping the info flowing, after your own hiatus from posting a while back.
I've just about crawled out of the hole I fell into a couple of years ago, hoping to contribute a bit more frequently than my recent biennial pattern.

@All

Hope you are all well.

EDIT: sp.

Last edited by Boot_WB on 15-May-2017 at 08:53 AM.

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

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olsen 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 15-May-2017 9:58:33
#102 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 686
From: Germany

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
@olsen

Quote:

olsen wrote:
@eliyahu

Well, one more thing: what hurts me most, personally, is the talk about an Amiga community which could accomplish so much if only it had access to the real Amiga operating system source code. It hurts me personally, because by now I am painfully aware of how few people are left who are technically able or willing to learn how to make Amiga software. I know a thing or two about that subject. There used to be so many more around who were much more knowledgeable than I may be today. Where are they now? Who is going to assume the same responsibilities?

Talking about the operating system without also considering how to care for it, and who could be doing it, neglects answering the more painful questions.


Well, reading that, and also your post on amiga.org ("What did the availability of the source code make possible?"), would it be correct to describe you as an advocate of Open Sourcing the 3.1 source code?

It's complicated (of course it is!).

I can perfectly understand the need to open source the operating system as the means to maintain it, adapting it, fixing bugs, upgrading missing/insufficient functionality (e.g. large disk support in the mass storage drivers and the "HDToolBox" program).

Do not put your hopes on this happening any time soon, though. In the long run my gut feeling is that it is inevitable. None of the guys who worked on the operating system are getting any younger, and right now one of the important tasks that need attention is to keep the operating system around in as decent shape as possible for the next generation of hackers to discover and make something out of it. This is the arc of Amiga operating system development and maintenance I picture right now and which I can support.

Because this is likely going to be a long term project which has to span several years, maybe even a decade or longer, it pays to be prepared for it to become reality. If you want it to happen, you need to build alliances and try to keep in touch with the people who now (for better or worse) are the keepers of the operating system.

Be smart about it. Criticism or flattery will get you somewhere, of course. Bring something to the table: those who currently take care of the operating system need to be sure that when open sourcing becomes an option, there is somebody around who will take good care of it. Building a community and an infrastructure for the open sourced Amiga operating system to grow around could serve as a starting point.

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broadblues 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 15-May-2017 10:56:16
#103 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4125
From: Portsmouth England

@Boot_WB

Absolutely if TMHG / TRIPOS is the ultimate troll round here, Pavlor is the ultimate troll feeder, if Pavlor would just shut up ( or post more reasonably) TMHG would less of a problem, because such threads would be shorter and any actual facts in them easier to find.

_________________
BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

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Chris_Y 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 15-May-2017 10:56:35
#104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3102
From: Beds, UK

@OlafS25

Quote:

Chris is trolling too if he insists that only the "only true successor" can be intrated in a chart with 3.1 and MorphOS/AROS (including my favorite 68k branch) has to left out. Trolling or not trolling depends on how you look at it.


I only said they should be left out because the chart in question is supposed to be showing development from the original source code.

They don't necessarily need to be excluded, dotted lines or whatever would work too to show API compatibility.

The chart is complete and utter garbage anyway so what does or doesn't appear on it is irrelevant.

_________________
"Miracles we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer" - AJS on Hyperion
Avatar is Tabitha by Eric W Schwartz

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TRIPOS 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 15-May-2017 18:25:36
#105 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 830
From: Unknown

@Chris_Y

Quote:

Chris_Y wrote:

the chart in question is supposed to be showing development from the original source code.


Eh... NO!!!

The black lines marks a chronological order of appearance along a timeline, which lead to the current situation today!

Try again:

(Click for big picture)


Do you see the four columns (or five, counting the parallel "Boing Ball Branch" 3.1)? The leftmost (the Checkmark column) is naturally the longest, since that is the OS introduced by Commodore which is still available today.

Then we have AROS. Trace the black line backwards from "AROS" in the horizontal "TODAY" field, and you will see that it appeared in 1995-1996 (depending on source of information, and how you define a "release"). This means that the early AROS got publicly introduced after 3.1 but before Haage&Partner's 3.5 (the 3.5/3.9 is merely a parenthesis BTW, they were only published for a relatively short time before being revoked, and they are not published today, which is where there is no black line leading down from them to a column in the TODAY field)

From the MorphOS column you can trace the black line back to August 2000, in other words a few months before the 3.9.

And OS4 is from 2004.

Etc.


Quote:
The chart is complete and utter garbage anyway so what does or doesn't appear on it is irrelevant.


I wonder how you manage to live through a day without being able to interpret simple charts, tables and illustrations. Are you able to read and understand a bus time table for example? Just because you can't grasp something, doesn't make it "utter garbage", "irrelevant", "alternate reality" or anything similarly disrespectful and degrading.


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TRIPOS 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 15-May-2017 18:27:39
#106 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 830
From: Unknown

@olsen

Quote:

olsen wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:

would it be correct to describe you as an advocate of Open Sourcing the 3.1 source code?

It's complicated (of course it is!).

I can perfectly understand the need to open source the operating system as the means to maintain it, adapting it, fixing bugs, upgrading missing/insufficient functionality


I agree, at least if you look at 3.1 as something else than a museum object mainly of interest to Amiga preservationists and retro purists (who would not appreciate upgrades and further development as much as 68k evolutionists), and if you disregard from efforts that are already there (like open source 68k AROS being developed as we speak) in which the 68k evolutionists are currently putting their hope in.



Quote:
Do not put your hopes on this happening any time soon, though.


Or indeed at all!

The IP has been tied up for very long, in a hopeless situation. Cloanto trying to collect everything under one roof may become an enabler (not saying they want to do this, but a single stake holder at least has the possibility to make such a decision), depending on how much noise Hyperion may raise about their "exclusive right to develop" clause they had in their so called "agreement" with Amiga Inc. In my books ownership beats licensing though, especially when the license agreement in question is between two entities completely unrelated to Cloanto (the IP owner). Let's see how the legal crap settles. Because I'm pretty sure there are things going on at the legal front. Maybe you have some insight in that.


Quote:
In the long run my gut feeling is that it is inevitable. None of the guys who worked on the operating system are getting any younger, and right now one of the important tasks that need attention is to keep the operating system around in as decent shape as possible for the next generation of hackers to discover and make something out of it. This is the arc of Amiga operating system development and maintenance I picture right now and which I can support.


True. If that is what the IP owner wants, of course. They could always opt to let it stay in the safe, throw away the key, and let it fade away. But I agree with you, any further sustainable development of these particular sources requires open source. There is no other way.

And it would indeed be a beautiful solution; the 1.3, 2.1 and 3.1 continued to be packaged pretty much untouched as it is now, for the purists and preservationists, while a new version of 68k 3.X (which has always been a moving and evolving target anyways) could be open sourced as a way to move the 68k things forward, for the 68k evolutionists.

A community could easily be formed around this, and it would be the perfect "Amiga Forever" in its truest sense; both connecting the past for preservationists, and enabling a future for a 3.X path that can go on forever in an open source form.

I have no idea what Cloanto wants by collecting the Amiga IP, but maybe they are thinking about something like this?

Open community based development of 3.X would bring longevity to an Amiga Forever product (meaning Amiga 68k in whatever shape and form) that may otherwise be kind of saturated and fading, so there might be some commercial interest in this, other than just Cloanto doing it because them being the good guys (which they definitely are ).




Quote:
Because this is likely going to be a long term project which has to span several years, maybe even a decade or longer, it pays to be prepared for it to become reality. If you want it to happen, you need to build alliances and try to keep in touch with the people who now (for better or worse) are the keepers of the operating system.

Be smart about it. Criticism or flattery will get you somewhere, of course. Bring something to the table: those who currently take care of the operating system need to be sure that when open sourcing becomes an option, there is somebody around who will take good care of it. Building a community and an infrastructure for the open sourced Amiga operating system to grow around could serve as a starting point.


If a very generous license would be used, like the BSD license, and there would be no risk for anyone to become "polluted" by having watched "protected IP", then there are still some really talanted developers in the MorphOS crew (both existing and former members), as well as the AROS crew, that may want to chip in some effort here and there, who knows. Browsing through the sources (and apply or suggest changes/improvements on occasion) could be a self-fulfilling experience for people having such die-hard interest in the platform that they created a new "Amiga" operating system of their own from scratch. Several of them has contributed many times with various support and fixes for community stuff before, and they do have the quite rare (nowadays) low-level knowledge needed for OS development. Who knows what open sourcing could mean? From nothing to everything. Not doing it will mean that it fades away though.

But as long as even having a peek at the source code could endanger the whole MorphOS (or AROS) projects because of possible IP pollution allegations, then the chance is absolutely zero. It must be completely open, completely free.

As you say, there aren't many left who has the skills and ability, but they do exist. The Amiga community and its aggregated competence is a lot wider than "the trademark". It is several columns wide!

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pavlor 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 15-May-2017 18:34:19
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@Boot_WB

Quote:
I've seen babies born during this continuing arguement that demonstrate more wisdom and maturity than either of you two do.


Being younger than most other AW members shows side effects.

However, stronger moderation would ged rid of offending users - including myself if necessary.

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pavlor 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 15-May-2017 18:36:56
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
I do not talk about 3.X regarding Hyperion or Cloanto


Is there another party with OS3.x branch?

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TRIPOS 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 15-May-2017 20:28:36
#109 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 830
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:

68k past

Is it?

I do not think so

I do not talk about 3.X regarding Hyperion or Cloanto


Is there another party with OS3.x branch?


http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=41815&forum=27

68k evolutionists having fun with "68080" (or what it's called), SuperAGA and AROS.

Effectively doing what Olsen above is hoping could happen with "his" sources...

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Hypex 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 16-May-2017 15:04:05
#110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8691
From: Greensborough, Australia

@number6

Thanks for the link. They forgot to ask. "When you go to Amiga shows do you now introduce yourself by saying: 'I am Groote.'"

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pavlor 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 16-May-2017 16:23:01
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
Effectively doing what Olsen above is hoping could happen with "his" sources...


AROS? Unusable on Classics right now, but could be viable alternative to 3.x in few years.

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wawa 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 16-May-2017 17:38:26
#112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
AROS? Unusable on Classics right now, but could be viable alternative to 3.x in few years.


have you tried? i have amigas running it. at least one user on a1k had me baffled claiming its actually usable on his machine, inclusive web browsing and usb, which i thought to be broken as of late.

here a few bad fotos ive made. google basically loads just in few seconds with aros owb (a4k/060/50) even though some images take a bit longer after the page is there:
https://ibb.co/cXQAo5
http://ibb.co/ijTrvk
http://ibb.co/dFART5

Last edited by wawa on 16-May-2017 at 05:43 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 16-May-2017 at 05:42 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 16-May-2017 at 05:42 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 16-May-2017 at 05:38 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 16-May-2017 19:16:09
#113 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@wawa

My A1200 has only 68030 and 8 MB Fast RAM... sure, it is much better on 68060, but it doesn´t make sense as main OS until its performance is comparable to 3.x. AROS has great potential for 68k (free, open source, under constant development), but there is still much to be done.

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wawa 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 16-May-2017 19:27:28
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@pavlor

right. on 030 it probably still will crawl. need to check that out here. but if you were dedicated to test and took workbook instead of wanderer it might actuall amount to something.;)

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pavlor 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 16-May-2017 19:43:45
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@wawa

Testing on my A1200 is not possible right now as I moved into new appartement and it is still in some bundle.

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wawa 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 16-May-2017 20:00:58
#116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@pavlor

just looking where ive put my 030 and 040 4000er cpu cards;) ha!

edit: found some. the 030 gives me yellow screen so far, but 040 finally found the fastata after i removed the network card. and it booted to aros after i removed p4 as well.
so, on aga it isnt particularly fast but except wanderer lags a bit (i think its really that heavy png icon theme) it isnt really that unusable. ran few apps dopus4, snoopdos, editor, fireworks demo which isnt really meant for planar, but works (fulscreen).
all pretty stable.. multitasking, no need to reboot..

Last edited by wawa on 16-May-2017 at 08:42 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 16-May-2017 at 08:42 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 16-May-2017 at 08:41 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 19-May-2017 22:35:29
#117 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 830
From: Unknown

@wawa

I have never used 3.9 on a real Amiga, but pretty much all sources I have read say that it's too slow to be enjoyable on anything less than a 040. About AROS 68k I have heard that may be even worse in comparison. Perhaps depending on you definition of "usable speed".

Anyway, I think it's interesting that Olaf "Olsen" Barthel is urging the IP owners (Cloanto) to open sourcing the OS. This could potentially open up a lot of possibilities for the Amiga, Apollo/Vampire/Whatever and maybe AROS 68k as well. A lot of potential cross-pollination.

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wawa 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 19-May-2017 23:00:50
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

os3.x cannot be improved i its current state. this silly games will go forever. aros can. just before yesterday toni improved some kernel operation for speed. i ran aibb benchmarks before and aros scored 3/4 of 3.9 speed on average. remember: this is aros compiled for a plain 68000 with only optimisation for size on kickstart modules.

the work is constantly going on, now with more focus on 68k than ever. in parallel to x64 smp ;)

Last edited by wawa on 19-May-2017 at 11:02 PM.

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Rob 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 20-May-2017 3:02:49
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5575
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

I didn't notice any decrease in speed when I got 3.5 or 3.9. I think I already had a 33Mhz 040 by that time but if was too slow to be enjoyable on anything less then surely I'd have noticed and it would be something that would stick in memory.

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ne_one 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 21-May-2017 18:37:33
#120 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 735
From: Unknown

Quite a bit of acrimony and despair in this discussion.

In the end however, why does it always come down to the need to leverage 3.x/4.x in order for the OS to evolve and remain relevant?

There's always so much doom and gloom about the challenge to find knowledgeable developers, reluctance to open source the code, Hyperion's foibles etc.

Does anyone really think that even under ideal circumstances that using any of the existing IP is going to be productive?

There's nothing wrong with maintaining 3.1/4.1 for backwards compatibility but it's really time to move on -- and forward.

Things have changed a little since the 80's.

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