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      /  Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 21-May-2017 23:38:33
#121 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@ne_one

Well there seems to be people that join development team and then you do not hear anything in long time, that makes me wonder if picked the right people.

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olsen 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 8:19:27
#122 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 691
From: Germany

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
@wawa

I have never used 3.9 on a real Amiga, but pretty much all sources I have read say that it's too slow to be enjoyable on anything less than a 040. About AROS 68k I have heard that may be even worse in comparison. Perhaps depending on you definition of "usable speed".

Anyway, I think it's interesting that Olaf "Olsen" Barthel is urging the IP owners (Cloanto) to open sourcing the OS. This could potentially open up a lot of possibilities for the Amiga, Apollo/Vampire/Whatever and maybe AROS 68k as well. A lot of potential cross-pollination.



Careful, please. "Urging" is different, I would have used the term if this is what I wanted to draw attention to, but I did not. Hence, I did not say that.

My point is that the operating system will need to be maintained, and it becomes harder and harder to find the people who can do this job by hiring them or through consulting gigs. This would become easier if the operating system source became more accessible in the long term.

The key word is "long term". I mentioned years, if not decades before there might be any development in this direction. I don't see any of the parties involved right now relinquishing access and control over the IPs which they acquired at great cost and effort.

My advice to you was to spend the effort on making it easier for the IP owners to part with the property by providing a good home for it. When the time comes, you should be ready.

More to the point, do not make the mistake of assuming that everything will fall into place, or that the goodwill of "the Amiga community" will be sufficient to pull this off. It is tempting to make assumptions that there will be some sort of community to rise to the challenge. We cannot predict how that community will look like after the years have gone by. Could be that all that's left will be a set of Amiga web forums in which the same people keep talking on and on about how to make something out of the Amiga again, while those who could have done just that have long retired.

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iggy 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 10:20:09
#123 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@ne_one

Well...3.1 and 4.1 seem to be generating some revenue.

I'm not sure where you think the money for development of more advanced software is going to come from.
From our huge base of users?
From the "wealthy" investors that own the rights to the IP?

Maybe from venture capitalists that want to throw their money away?

Or maybe the IP owners should just give their assets away, so that a really small group of people can discuss getting something done on a open basis (while getting little actually done).

HEY, its a hobby, get over it, it advances at a slow pace because there's no real money in it and its just being done to satisfy the interests of our small community and the truly committed (or those that OUGHT to be anyway ).

Last edited by iggy on 22-May-2017 at 10:24 AM.
Last edited by iggy on 22-May-2017 at 10:21 AM.

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wawa 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 10:46:31
#124 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5726
From: Unknown

@olsen

Quote:
My advice to you was to spend the effort on making it easier for the IP owners to part with the property by providing a good home for it. When the time comes, you should be ready.


no.. sorry, but this time you must be joking. doesnt it even sound rediculously biblical to you? waiting for years and dacades. praying, keeping our sould and the place ready and oil for the lamps at hand, for some uncertain messiah or other who might, just might decide to drop by for a night. probably first when we are all gone, though. real life godot.

im not sure these foras will even still exist in twenty years. the concepts of the whole internet may differ by then, let alone the concept of computers and operating systems. woever then may offically release the worthless sources of an obscure software form 50 years before, may do that, going on a pension, for preservation rather than maintenance.

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olsen 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 12:16:31
#125 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 691
From: Germany

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@olsen

Quote:
My advice to you was to spend the effort on making it easier for the IP owners to part with the property by providing a good home for it. When the time comes, you should be ready.


no.. sorry, but this time you must be joking.


No, not joking now, wasn't joking when I responded to Tripos' posting either.

I have seen how the sausage is made, and observed how the players operate. The Amiga operating system and the technology associated with it are long-term investments.

Consider this: we are about 15+ years into the AmigaOS4 development project, and Amiga Forever goes back even further (1999? I don't remember exactly).

These investments are only just now beginning to pay dividends (and trouble, too, come to think of it).

The long-term strategy will persist, even if one of the players should drop out of the race or get bought-out by an outside investor.

Quote:
doesnt it even sound rediculously biblical to you?

In this Amiga business nothing is ever ridiculous The terms "stranger than fiction" or "hard to believe" come to mind.

Quote:
waiting for years and dacades. praying, keeping our sould and the place ready and oil for the lamps at hand, for some uncertain messiah or other who might, just might decide to drop by for a night. probably first when we are all gone, though. real life godot.

im not sure these foras will even still exist in twenty years. the concepts of the whole internet may differ by then, let alone the concept of computers and operating systems. woever then may offically release the worthless sources of an obscure software form 50 years before, may do that, going on a pension, for preservation rather than maintenance.

See? You too are uncomfortable with how hard this is going to get, and how long it is going to take.

I am not trying to sound like the "grumpy old man" character which the future may have in mind for me. The Amiga business just is that unpredictable and screwy, to put it mildly.

If anything, this long perspective for change to take place only serves to stress that a) no change will happen unless somebody makes it happen, b) there has to be another way.

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OlafS25 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 12:25:34
#126 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@olsen

long-term strategy? Investments?

You are now kidding. What are you talking about?

The only reason why there is some interest again is a third-party project driven by enthusiasts (Apollo/Vampire). None of them gave any support whatever. Even that "classic OS 4.1" runs on UAE now was not a idea of anyone but a challenge Toni Wilen took, they gave him (as far as I know) no support and no money even though Hyperion sold certainly a number of additional licenses because of it.

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olsen 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 12:44:49
#127 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 691
From: Germany

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@olsen

long-term strategy? Investments?

You are now kidding. What are you talking about?


Amiga, Inc., Hyperion and Cloanto: All of these enterprises used to either control access to the Amiga operating system, in binary or source code form, or are earning money through its use. It has been like this for (give or take) almost two decades now.

While these companies had varying success in making money out of the Amiga operating system, money was invested in securing rights to the use of it. These investments go back for a long time.

Quote:
The only reason why there is some interest again is a third-party project driven by enthusiasts (Apollo/Vampire). None of them gave any support whatever. Even that "classic OS 4.1" runs on UAE now was not a idea of anyone but a challenge Toni Wilen took, they gave him (as far as I know) no support and no money even though Hyperion sold certainly a number of additional licenses because of it.


But how does this relate to the time frame and likelihood of seeing the Amiga operating system source code opened? Neither the Apollo/Vampire projects, nor UAE are in a position to control when or how it may happen.

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Hypex 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 12:56:17
#128 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8724
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OlafS25

Quote:
Even that "classic OS 4.1" runs on UAE now was not a idea of anyone but a challenge Toni Wilen took, they gave him (as far as I know) no support and no money even though Hyperion sold certainly a number of additional licenses because of it.


I'm not surprised. Toni said in an interview he had no interest in PowerPC or support for it in UAE; it was just put in as a side effect, to support the running of a PPC boot ROM. So he didn't give any encouragement that way.

In any case, the fact that UAE/PPC can run OS4 is really just a side effect of it emulating an Amiga PowerPC CPU card. OS4 Classic targets real hardware, not an emulator.

Sure, people have purchased OS4 Classic with the intention of using it under emulation. But in all honesty, this is not a set up you could seriously use OS4 with. Even the speed of it on fast machines, boot and main performance, aside from other limitations; leaves it to little more than a novelty.

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OlafS25 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:05:27
#129 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@Hypex

on eab I think I read that he moaned about Hyperion not giving him the least support and they have certainly not donated either. On fast PCs it is certainly not running like hell but at least usable. Even I am OS 4.1 owner (not installed though)

I do not think that Hyperion really has a strategy

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OlafS25 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:08:43
#130 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@olsen

it is not related to the question if 3.1 sources might be open sourced but if there is any kind of strategy. What would that be? If they would hypthetical open source 3.1 in 10 years who would be interested in it, I would even say how many skilled devs would be left that could do something with it?

I do not see a real strategy or if they have one they have hidden it successfully

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wawa 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:13:16
#131 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5726
From: Unknown

@olsen

in short you simply pledge for the audience to keep being passive and submissive (for decases to come) upon some unfounded hopes in order to satisfy some involved parties odd business practices and reward their attitude towards customership.

well, i think everybody simply deserves what they are stuck with. luckily there are alternatives well worth support and engagement.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:16:39
#132 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@OlafS25

The problem I have is distribution, when everyone cook up their own code, upload it somewhere, there be nothing but a bunch of patches and hacks laying around the internet, now you have official disk that contains what everyone has, this what make it possible to make software that work for people.

I see parallel between politics and source code, what level of control should an authority have over the public. I think most people agree that anarchy is not good, and we can agree that dictatorship is not good.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-May-2017 at 01:25 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-May-2017 at 01:18 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-May-2017 at 01:17 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:22:56
#133 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5726
From: Unknown

@olsen

Quote:
But how does this relate to the time frame and likelihood of seeing the Amiga operating system source code opened? Neither the Apollo/Vampire projects, nor UAE are in a position to control when or how it may happen.


it isnt necessary. this source code should remain closed alright. i dont know why people go around begging for it again and again, being held that carrot in front of their noses repeatedly. i simply think, you shouldnt encourage them in their desperate dreams to wait for something they wont live to witness, because it is cruel.

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wawa 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:29:10
#134 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5726
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
The problem I have is distribution, when everyone cook up their own code, upload it somewhere, there be nothing but a bunch of patches and hacks laying around the internet, now you have official disk that contains what everyone has, this what make it possible to make software that work for people.


another repeatedly told misconception to justify a closed software.

why were there any contradicting patches to the genuine amigaos? because it was open?
why were there concurring basic functionality subsystems, like huge drives support, rtg, usb, etc? because they were open?
why has the split between aros, morphos and os4 ever came to being? because sources were open?
why are there numerous forks and reimplementations of mui? because it is open?
there even is an attempt on openly reimplementing reaction, by one of few own os4 coders..

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olsen 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:39:23
#135 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 691
From: Germany

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@olsen

in short you simply pledge for the audience to keep being passive and submissive (for decases to come) upon some unfounded hopes in order to satisfy some involved parties odd business practices and reward their attitude towards customership.

No, you misunderstand me pretty completely

I am arguing that this will be a really, really tough task to take on. Unless one deals with these long term strategies and accounts for them, an open sourced Amiga operating system will not happen any time soon. Waiting for it to drop like an overripe fruit is not an option because of the time span involved.

Being ready to and getting ready to care for an open sourced Amiga operating system is the exact opposite of waiting passively. There has to be another way to make this happen, and both trying to find that way and actively lobbying for it to become reality is not passive either.

After all that has been written about this matter in this very forum, the wish to see the Amiga operating system open sourced already appears to be so much more alluring than breaking down the problem of getting there into manageable pieces, making a plan and following it through

No change will come forth unless somebody actively pursues making that change happen. As they say, no change, even for the better, is made without inconvenience.

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OlafS25 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:43:07
#136 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

I read that claim in the past already... if sources would be open there would be chaos with lots of different forks that are incompatible. Who would do that forks? You must be skilled dev to fork it, there are not that many skilled devs left and I doubt that there are many left who are interested to really work on it. In reality it would be a small group of developers really contributing something. Sometimes people see a danger where (in my view) no real danger is.

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OlafS25 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:47:26
#137 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5098
From: Unknown

@olsen

The bigger task will be to find someone skilled who is still interested to really do something in it. Devs are humans and also getting older and priorities shifting. If they would open source it in 10 years there would not many be left who are experienced and interested.

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wawa 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 13:54:52
#138 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5726
From: Unknown

@olsen

again you say that open sourceing you propose us to be lobbying for (as if it was anywhere within our, the community, resposnibility and expertise) is not going to happen within years.

it doesnt make sense to hope on something this vague and remote.
whoever wants to have an improved amiga operating system in comparison to what 3.x delivers may have it within their lifetime, well maybe even within few months. people simply need to put some work and testing into it instead to keep lazy dreaming. but likely the most are too old and too desilusioned for it.

Last edited by wawa on 22-May-2017 at 01:55 PM.

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Tomppeli 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 14:03:25
#139 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1602
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

I think what olsen is trying to say that as long as Amiga inc is around AmigaOS can't be open sourced. But if Amiga inc disappears completely in for example 5 or 10 years and AmigaOS would be open sourced will the community be ready to take the challenge to do anything with it. Or is all capable coders left the community by then. Of course anybody can think that 5 or 10 years is far away. But then again AmigaOS 4+ have been in development 15 years already so 15 years passed by now. What is another 5-10 years in Amiga community. Of course, we can't know what happens to Amiga inc but if they can't even renew their trademarks maybe the end is closer than we think.

Also AmigaOS is so ancient and outdated design and OS. It would be better if somebody started to design and make a completely new OS instead of wondering to improve the ancient OS in any way. (The old software wouldn't run on the new OS without using the old OS in emulation or a sand box, obviously.) So why not move on and use Windows instead.

Last edited by Tomppeli on 22-May-2017 at 02:07 PM.

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Tomppeli 
Re: Interview: Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Posted on 22-May-2017 14:12:54
#140 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1602
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

@wawa

Quote:
there even is an attempt on openly reimplementing reaction, by one of few own os4 coders..

Really, who and where ?

_________________
Rock lobster bit me, so excuse me. If you'll plan to deal with me, be serious !
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