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      /  A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
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Hypex 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 14:18:12
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8691
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
If you say port over 4.0 features then that, might be more doable, then 4.1 features,


You also bring up another subject on top of software; hardware. And here there are more limitations on graphic card. Even if there was a Mediator PCIe TNG that supported HD Radeons would the old buss be able to handle it?

But this doesn't solve the software issues. Simple things like PDF reading is too slow even for my 800Mhz A1. In fact it stutters when playing an mp3 in MultiView if I drag windows around. Even browsing internet on my 1.5Ghz iBook is too slow and eats tons of RAM before finding a site doesn't work.

So I don't see any point in making OS4 Classic any more than it is. It's almost a novelty and you couldn't use it for daily tasks anymore. Plus reports put OS3.9 better at supporting common hardware.

Quote:
We noticed more and more is how old and dated DOpus is, thing like category tiles in list is fixed, so if long filenames you can't read the full name, no way to filter or sort by date, things like that. I think run into issues as well with long names, copying stuff from usb-sick.


Yes I've got stuck on that as well. The 32 char limit is a bit old hat. Every Amiga program should at least support 108.

Last edited by Hypex on 25-Jul-2017 at 02:12 PM.

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 15:58:04
#102 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hans

Quote:


So the machine is cluttered with software that I likely don't use... I pretty much only use Linux for web-servers, and the software I'm interested in is fully functional and actively maintained.


Nice illusion, eh?

The software you use depend on libraries, maintenance of library packages tend to go in incredibly slow cycles and application developers (and I would say web-application developers especially) are slow at adapting their code to newer versions of libraries (and build tools), and on top of that, binary package distributions also move in large circles, slowing things down even more.

Quote:

Quote:
kolla wrote:
Sadly, in Amiga land, open sourcing is something that most often is done by authors just as they abandon their projects, rather when they start projects.

And if AmigaOS' source were opened tomorrow, it would likely mean that it too is being abandoned.


Yes, but what difference would it make? Well, at least it could give the people involved some peace in mind to pursue more healthy activities, and leave it to the community to take care of themselves.

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 16:08:54
#103 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

@paolone

Quote:

First. To survive, a platform needs basically two things: money and popularity.


Linux started with neither.

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 16:17:00
#104 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@kolla

Quote:
Linux started with neither.


And outside of Android, it hold about a 1% market share.
Not MY definition of popularity.
Further, outside of the server market, its not really generating money either.

Last edited by iggy on 24-Jul-2017 at 04:17 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 16:27:19
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
So I don't see any point in making OS4 Classic any more than it is.


WinUAE.

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 17:53:29
#106 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@pavlor

Quote:
WinUAE.


So people can run a performance limited version under emulation?
Well, at least it won't compete with AmigaOne sales that way.
But if it just emulated a generic PowerPC cpu, and not an Amiga PowerPC card, AND if it could directly access modern video cards, hey...

It would probably kick the AmigaOne's ass.
OR at least make Tabor SO pointless.

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saimon69 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 18:06:55
#107 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2007
Posts: 269
From: Los Angeles, CA

@iggy

Quote:

And outside of Android, it hold about a 1% market share.


Considered what number of users is 1% in raw digits, comapred to current situation i would dig that, there would be enough to cover also some small commercial homebrew developers

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pavlor 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 18:11:33
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@iggy

PowerPC emulation in WinUAE has still plenty of room for improvement. Eg network and GFX are sloooow in comparison to 68k emulation on the same hardware.

I don´t think "generic PowerPC cpu" emulation is needed - WinUAE uses QEMU CPU core and raw CPU speed is the same as emulated G3 in plain QEMU.

Quote:
OR at least make Tabor SO pointless.


Well, QEMU PowerPC emulation is no speed monster either (softfloats for FPU...).

For me, WinUAE is an introduction to OS4 world (until I buy Tabor) and allows me to run OS4 on my notebook.

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 19:14:11
#109 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@pavlor

Quote:
For me, WinUAE is an introduction to OS4 world (until I buy Tabor)....


So far I've resisted the urge to get an introduction that might turn me off to the entire enterprise.
And I'm not that interested in Tabor, although I'd buy a SAM460 if I could find one (and to think of the number of times I didn't pull that trigger when it was available).
Anyway, you know what system I want to run OS4 on.

The question, is can I hold out for the four core model, or just relent and buy that damned two core version.

BTW - You're right about QEMU, relying on that does leave some room for improvement.

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Rob 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 24-Jul-2017 23:02:43
#110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5575
From: S.Wales

@Hypex

Quote:
The closest to this is the OS4 programs compiled as 68K in order for OS4 to boot off an actual Amiga.


I think that could do with a little rephrasing because I cant really see the point you're a trying to make.

Quote:
But on the whole a OS4.x 68K is unlikely because the point of OS4 PPC was to move over to a new faster CPU.


Many of the new features in OS4 don't require more powerful hardware but do bring extra functionality to the OS and make for a better user experience. With the Advent of AmigaONE hardware people didn't using and upgrading their 68k hardware. The Vampire cards are incredibly popular too which advances the 68k hardware for the first time since the 90's. I think a new official version of Amiga OS 68k would be popular with many users and has the potential to dwarf the current circulation of OS4.x.

Quote:
If OS4 is slow on a real Amiga then it will be even slower on a real 68K. Even on a faster virtual 68K it would still be too slow for real world use.


Anything that would be too demanding like solid dragging of windows could be excluded or switched on or off depending on the hardware available. The installer could even determine the best settings for the hardware it finds attached to the Amiga. I don't really see a problem.

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 1:13:04
#111 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@Rob

Hey, talk to Hyperion.
They have the right to do this if they want.
But they have their hands full just trying to keep up with the pace of development in the PPC market.

As I've stated in the past, Cloanto does not have the right to develop new versions of Amiga OS, as Hyperion's court settlement with Amiga Inc. grants them an exclusive license to develop new versions of Amiga OS from legacy code.

You can use AROS, you can use legally obtained copies of legacy versions of Amiga OS.
What you can't do, is demand that a corporation relinquish an IP they have a legal right to, and have invested money in developing, just because you'd like them to.

You can't dictate terms to them, so try waving some money at them. Profit motivation works with US corporations, so I don't see why it wouldn't work with European companies.

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Hypex 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 14:53:11
#112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8691
From: Greensborough, Australia

@pavlor

Quote:
WinUAE.


I think that's worse! At least for PPC. Sure it would be fast in 68K emulation but does it emulate all cards you can plug into an Amiga and map from Amiga to host? For example USB ports.

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Hypex 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 15:15:49
#113 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8691
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Rob

Quote:
I think that could do with a little rephrasing because I cant really see the point you're a trying to make.


My point was the closest we would see of an OS4 port for 68K is the newly compiled 68K support programs for booting OS4 from a cold start.

I don't see any possibility of an OS4 68K backport.

Quote:
The Vampire cards are incredibly popular too which advances the 68k hardware for the first time since the 90's. I think a new official version of Amiga OS 68k would be popular with many users and has the potential to dwarf the current circulation of OS4.x.


Maybe. But offically the 68K is dead. The Vampire emulates a custom 68K in hardware. And AFAIK is no faster than the proposed ColdFire 68K replacement. You could probably emulate a 486 or Pentium in a FPGA now but since people wanted to throw money at x86 there is no need since it is still around.

In any case even if OS4 ran on a Vampire what would you do with it? Most people I know, including ones excited by a Vampire, have no interest on OS4. I mean, if you wanted to run Imagine, Alien Breed 3d TKG or Payback you'd want to do it on OS3.x. Not some OS4.

Quote:
Anything that would be too demanding like solid dragging of windows could be excluded or switched on or off depending on the hardware available.


That almost sounds like lowering the screen palette so JPEGs load faster. But I'm not talking about hardware limitations. You still couldn't use it to browse the internet normally. It would also not work but not work at a much slower speed. You might be able to word process. Or run DPaint. But again it would be too slow I think to use as a practical sysyem in the modern world. The AmigaOne series is limited even at greater speeds. So I just don't think it would be worth it.

Last edited by Hypex on 25-Jul-2017 at 03:16 PM.

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Rob 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 25-Jul-2017 19:25:22
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5575
From: S.Wales

@Hypex

Quote:
In any case even if OS4 ran on a Vampire what would you do with it? Most people I know, including ones excited by a Vampire, have no interest on OS4.


They have no interest in OS4 because it is a PPC product. That doesn't mean they'd not be interested in new official release of Amiga OS for 68k.

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pavlor 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 26-Jul-2017 15:24:15
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
I think that's worse! At least for PPC. Sure it would be fast in 68K emulation but does it emulate all cards you can plug into an Amiga and map from Amiga to host? For example USB ports.


WinUAE/OS4 supports:
Z3 (GFX, Audio, LAN)
PCI (Audio, LAN)

USB is not supported yet.


As there is no portable OS4 computer, WinUAE remains only choice in this regard.

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pavlor 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 26-Jul-2017 15:26:14
#116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8425
From: Unknown

@Rob

OS4 has limited compatibility for chipset depending games/applications. Lack of WHDLoad would be no go for Vampire users.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 26-Jul-2017 15:43:21
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10705
From: Norway

@pavlor

Quote:
OS4 has limited compatibility for chipset depending games/applications


AmigaOS4.x can run chipset depended program and games just fin, as long as JIT compiler is not stopped.

Chipsets is something on the motherboard not some thing in the OS. its there for not OS limitation, if the game or program depends on some particulate hardware, then you can't expect the game or program to work. if it's not there anymore, but lets say you run AmigaOS4.1 on BlizzardPPC or CyberStorm PCC, that should not be problem.

But in any case, you can force this games or programs into E-UAE.
If you port AmigaOS to 680x0 you do not need the JIT compiler, so you wont have the problem.

AmigaOS4.1 has some memory protection, there is chance poorly coded program will bring up the grim reaper. this requires fully working MMU.

Quote:
Lack of WHDLoad would be no go for Vampire users.


WHDLoad games are forced into E-UAE, see my app on OS4Depot.net

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jul-2017 at 03:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jul-2017 at 03:47 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jul-2017 at 03:45 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 26-Jul-2017 15:53:13
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10705
From: Norway

@pavlor

Quote:
As there is no portable OS4 computer, WinUAE remains only choice in this regard.


then I guess you should have look here:

http://www.powerprogress.org/en/

https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/campaigns/electrical-schematics-notebook-powerpc-motherboard-donation-campaign/

Who knows if they are able to deliver on this, maybe there will be PowerPC Linux computer, and maybe if we are lucky a AmigaOS4.x port to it.

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Hypex 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 26-Jul-2017 16:30:12
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8691
From: Greensborough, Australia

@pavlor

Quote:
As there is no portable OS4 computer, WinUAE remains only choice in this regard.


If someone were to take the Tabor and design a portable case around it we'd have something. I think this is do able and should be in our day and age. The problem is that people would want or expect it to be like a laptop as well. So then it needs rechargable batteries, sleep mode and other logic to accommodate that. Which makes the PowerPC laptop running OS4 more likely.

Last edited by Hypex on 26-Jul-2017 at 04:31 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 26-Jul-2017 16:34:56
#120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8691
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Chipsets is something on the motherboard not some thing in the OS. its there for not OS limitation, if the game or program depends on some particulate hardware, then you can't expect the game or program to work. if it's not there anymore, but lets say you run AmigaOS4.1 on BlizzardPPC or CyberStorm PCC, that should not be problem.


It's funny. Everytime I accidently stumble across an article on the X5000 (as if it was the newest Amiga thing in 20 years) I always see comments asking if it will run A500 games. It's funny how old Amiga people still llive in the past.

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