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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 11:07:45
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@tonyw

Quote:
I find myself agreeing with you more often these days. One of us is slipping


Don't worry, its you.

And 68K hardware is somehow going to subsume PPC hardware and regain its former glory?

If that thought is even under consideration in your mind, you need to see someone for counseling and possibly medication (which TRIPOS obviously refuses to take), because its a definite sign of OCD and possible mania.

To clarify, I'm possibly a bigger fan of the 68000 series than most of you, as it has to be my favorite processor of all time, and I'm not that fixated on the Amiga per say.
When introduced, it was SO much better than what Intel was offering, it made other vendors products look pathetic.
And it took about 3 generations before Intel caught up.
BUT, that is OLD history.
In comparison to a modern cpu, PPC or X64, its far too dated.

So, you can have your fantasies (or delusions), however I'll still be able to point to benches that show either of those two platforms dancing all over the 68K.

@kolla

Quote:
The problem is that despite of having gained the rights to copy and distribute the OS, Cloanto do not hold legal rights to the source code, and hence are in no position to officially open source it on their own.


Complicated situation, isn't it?
Thanks to the Amiga Inc./Hyperion settlement, it would appear that Hyperion has the sole legal claim to the right to develop from Amiga OS.
And Cloanto certainly has obtained the right to distribute the OS, but does that really equate to ownership when you don't have the right to develop future versions from it?

At this point, Cloanto is pushing their luck releasing modified versions of Amiga OS, as that could be seen as violating Hyperions right to develop future OS' from that code base.

So Tripos' fantasies about Cloanto further developing Amiga OS may just be that, unless they can get Hyperion on board.

Last edited by iggy on 20-Jul-2017 at 04:59 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 20-Jul-2017 at 12:24 PM.
Last edited by iggy on 20-Jul-2017 at 11:15 AM.

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 13:08:46
#62 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
@kolla

They claim (and I believe them, copyright detective work has been their core business for 20 years) to have the copyrights of "everything Commodore".


Yeah, and Commodore did not own it all either. Many parts of Amiga OS was copyrighted by others and just licensed by Commodore for use with the OS.

Anyways, I have yet to see/hear Cloanto claim ownership to source code, unlike Hyperion.

Last edited by kolla on 20-Jul-2017 at 01:19 PM.

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 13:18:36
#63 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
You do realize that what you are talking about here, is nothing but piracy?


Are you shocked?

You are aware that BoingBag 3+4 contains binaries built from the leaked sources, bits and pieces that was never released as binaries before?

As for the kickstart in the Vampire, I never said it was unauthorised - it was endorsed and licensed by Cloanto at least, if not also Hyperion... I cannot recall. It's not like they are the only ones. Jens also has a deal about shipping ACA500+ (IIRC) with kickstart roms. You should perhaps pay more attention to what goes on, or something.

Last edited by kolla on 20-Jul-2017 at 01:19 PM.

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 13:29:02
#64 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

@iggy

Quote:


Thanks to the Amiga Inc./Hyperion settlement, it would appear that Hyperion has the sole legal claim to the right to develop from Amiga OS.
And Cloanto certainly has obtained the right to distribute the OS, but does that really equate to ownership when you don't have the right to develop future versions from it?

At this point, Cloanto is pushing their luck releasing modified versions of Amiga OS, as that could be seen as violating Hyperions right to develop future OS' from that code base.

So Tripos' fantasies about Cloanto further developing Amiga OS may just be that, unless they can get Hyperion on board.


I agree with all this :)

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 14:38:37
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@kolla

Yes, and the scary thing is I'm not a big fan of Ben Hermans, BUT if you are going to stand up for what is legally correct (and I was a business major, so that's a default), then Hyperion does have the exclusive right to develop AmigaOS.

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pavlor 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 14:51:53
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8429
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:
You are aware that BoingBag 3+4 contains binaries built from the leaked sources, bits and pieces that was never released as binaries before?


Bit per bit these are removed again as the new code is not compatible with current applications... amusing.

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Hypex 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 15:05:07
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8692
From: Greensborough, Australia

@iggy

Quote:
Well said.


Thank you. And also for not pointing out my correctly spelt spelling mistakes. Even after I checked them.

Quote:
Frankly, it wasn't THAT great of an operating system to begin with, and the primary reason for preserving the API is compatibility and continued development from a familiar base.


I think the user interface always needed cleaning up. The Workbench was always too messy. It should have placed icons. Even when it cleans up it still can look like a mess. It gave the user too much control whilist making it hard to center a drawer window with icons on screen so it stuck. WB2 should have have brought in structured 2d icons. Bitmaps just don't scale well. All the icons we've had over the generations just look out of place and messy. Bitmaps are too rigid and haven't they been obsolete for decades?

With the API it's fine for a base and supporting old apps but with new hardware and a reboot the API ideas should be reimplemented with a forward approach, not copied. Inspiration sure, but cloning it? Too far. 68K runs in emulation regardless. So it the old API should be left in there as well. It can hook into the new API internally.

Quote:
So, again, they are REALLY unlikely to open this software up (as that would eliminate the chance to profit from it).


I think what would benefit would be the open sourcing of drivers. So all "camps" can sit around the campfire and share ideas. And one base of code.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 15:30:38
#68 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10707
From: Norway

@Hypex

Well I found this page:

http://dopus.free.fr/about.php

the interesting part about is that Directory Opus 4 it is open source, yet no one has worked on it, for many years, just open sourcing thing does not guaranty, any continued development.

Open Source suffers from the same problems as communism. No one/or everyone owns it, no one wont's to take ownership and do anything.

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number6 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 16:04:42
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9860
From: In the village

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
the interesting part about is that Directory Opus 4 it is open source, yet no one has worked on it, for many years


Granted it is described as a minor update, but still not MANY years...August 2015:

http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=utility/filetool/dopus4.lha

#6

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gregthecanuck 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 22:07:18
#70 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 776
From: Vancouver, Canada

@iggy

Quote:

To clarify, I'm possibly a bigger fan of the 68000 series than most of you, as it has to be my favorite processor of all time, and I'm not that fixated on the Amiga per say.
When introduced, it was SO much better than what Intel was offering, it made other vendors products look pathetic.
And it took about 3 generations before Intel caught up.
BUT, that is OLD history.
In comparison to a modern cpu, PPC or X64, its far too dated.


When you say 'dated' are you referring the 68080 Apollo core design, or the classic 68K series? If 68080 you may not be aware of some recent developments?

Thanks

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 22:17:34
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@gregthecanuck

Obviously real 68000 series processors.
Kudos to the Apollo team for creating their stuff, but my God man, its 38 years after the 68000 was introduced.
Programmable logic can actually be used to create MORE powerful processors than the '68080'.

Then again, maybe if they left Gunnar's fantasies run freely...
After all, I'm beginning to like his idea of a non-standard fpu.

Then again, once its no longer compatible, is it really a 68000 series processor?

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 23:14:47
#72 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@kolla

Quote:
You are aware that BoingBag 3+4 contains binaries built from the leaked sources, bits and pieces that was never released as binaries before?


Bit per bit these are removed again as the new code is not compatible with current applications... amusing.


I have not seen that yet, from a quick glance, those binaries are still there.

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gregthecanuck 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 23:25:05
#73 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 776
From: Vancouver, Canada

@iggy

The 16bit Intel 8086 which started the x86 line came out in the late 1970s. I was playing with these chips in high school (CP/M, yeah). The follow-on 32-bit 80386 came out in the mid 1980's. My god man Intel is just as old. Must be no good. :)

I am not sure what you mean by 'programmable logic' but if you mean FPGA (field-programmable gate array) then yes that is currently the basis for the 68080 design.

Gunnar is a large part of the team working on the core. Did you know he is involved in the design of IBM's POWER cores? And more recently on ARM64 cores? He has the engineering background to modernize the 68K architecture... and this is exactly what is happening.

The FPU design is not a non-standard design. It is a standard design as has been emphasized here: http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5e=6603 . The issue with the FPU is one of manpower to test it as it is almost as complex as a CPU core. Also it may not actually fit on the current Cyclone III cores by the time all the AGA+ logic is done, but that hasn't been completely confirmed so take that as 'rumour' at the moment. In addition the plan is to evolve the FPU to a pipelined, super-scalar design as was done for the main core.

So yes, this is a 68000 series processor in the sense that is supports the same instructions and runs Amiga code and works in Amiga hardware.

But the design is very forward-looking since it already has a 64 bit internal design with modern core features (pipelining, super-scalar, multi-threading).

If that wasn't enough these crazy people are also implementing an entire upgraded Amiga chipset as well. For example the sound support ("PAMELA") is vastly improved: http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1e=7088 .

Remember that the overall goal of this project is to:
- evolve the 68K architecture into a modern design
- evolve the chipset architecture past what AGA did, and even past C='s 'Hombre' next-generation graphics design

The next core release (GOLD3) is going to be huge... whenever it comes out... two more weeks... ;)

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 20-Jul-2017 23:43:54
#74 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hypex

Well I found this page:

http://dopus.free.fr/about.php

the interesting part about is that Directory Opus 4 it is open source, yet no one has worked on it, for many years, just open sourcing thing does not guaranty, any continued development.


Who ever claimed it was? The point is that if there is interest to do development, it is possible. It is quite normal for software that development becomes dorment once the program reaches a certain level of "finishness", and is mostly only updated infrequently to fix compilation and compatibility issues.

Anyways, last commit to that repo was less than two years ago - "many years"? In addition, there is DOpus4 in AROS which may be maintained differently.

How do you want to develop DOpus4 further? And why don't you do it?
Some months ago, I started to look at changing the config editor, since I don't like how it pops up on its own screen, I did not finish it, but that is beside the point, the point is that I can make changes whenever I want and find time. You know, freedom.

Quote:
Open Source suffers from the same problems as communism. No one/or everyone owns it, no one wont's to take ownership and do anything.


Meh, what a lame stereotype you are. If you really think so, I suggest you get rid of your needs for open source products, including being a user of this very website.

Last edited by kolla on 20-Jul-2017 at 11:44 PM.

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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 21-Jul-2017 1:13:13
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@gregthecanuck

I had a slightly different experience as microprocessors were just becoming available when I was in High School (our computer labs had Wang 2200 systems which relied on processors made from multiple IC).
My first computer system used a Motorola 6800, so moving to 6809s and the 68000 was a natural progression.
I kind of avoided the Intel lineup (and the knock offs like the Z80) until the '386 came out.
After that, hey they's started producing stuff that was worth using.

Although, I didn't really completely switch over to X86 until Socket 7 cpus became common (and even then I favored AMD, I still have a few K6-III+ processors sitting around).
I've stuck with AMD since. When they were kicking Intel's ass during the Pentium 4 period, through this relative low point they've had in recent years, and out into this current battle we are seeing (which will benefit us all).

In fact, since I rather despised Apple, I never owned a PowerPC based system until I decide to start use NG OS'.

SO, even though I once consider X86 the dark side...if I can't have PowerPC (or Power8 or 9), hey...I'm hoping we all have the sense to migrate to X64.
That's where MorphOS is supposed to be headed (but only time will tel if that's a change in direction or just a fork in the road).

BTW - Speaking of Power9...has everybody seen the new announcements from Raptor Engineering about their planned successor for Talos, TalosII?

https://raptorcs.com/TALOSII/prerelease.php?target=2

And to throw fuel on the fire, Raptor has promoted Talos (and now TalosII) as a open platform.

Last edited by iggy on 21-Jul-2017 at 01:16 AM.
Last edited by iggy on 21-Jul-2017 at 01:14 AM.

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Hans 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 21-Jul-2017 1:46:35
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4790
From: New Zealand

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hypex

Well I found this page:

http://dopus.free.fr/about.php

the interesting part about is that Directory Opus 4 it is open source, yet no one has worked on it, for many years, just open sourcing thing does not guaranty, any continued development.


Who ever claimed it was? The point is that if there is interest to do development, it is possible. It is quite normal for software that development becomes dorment once the program reaches a certain level of "finishness", and is mostly only updated infrequently to fix compilation and compatibility issues.

I think he makes a fair point. I often see posts that make it sound like open-sourcing software is some kind of silver bullet, like you just need to open-source something and a bunch of code monkeys will swoop in and make it grow into something awesome. Yeah right!

In reality, Sourceforge, Github, and others are littered with projects that were open-sourced and then left stagnant.

Successful open-source projects tend to have a group/organisation steering the project (i.e., deciding on the roadmap and which patches to accept), and a business model that brings in the funds needed to pay developers to work on it full-time. Linux, Firefox, Chrome, etc., all have these two things.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 21-Jul-2017 at 01:47 AM.

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gregthecanuck 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 21-Jul-2017 1:49:24
#77 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 776
From: Vancouver, Canada

@iggy

Oh yeah I played around with a 6809-based system at first as well... it was a bare board with a hex keypad, some extra buttons and some hex segmented displays. Deluxe. :) Can't remember the name... bugboard or something like that?

Leaping to the present... checking out that Talos II... What were they thinking? Dual CPU motherboard? Were they trying to make it unaffordable? Overly complicated? The Talos II is doomed to fail, just like the first attempt. Would love to be proven wrong but I just don't see it.






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iggy 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 21-Jul-2017 3:00:42
#78 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@gregthecanuck

Well, they seem further along than the last time, as they aren't crowd funding, and they plan on moving straight to taking pre-orders in August.
But they were predicting about an $18K price for a fully equipped server with the first Talos board.
And this is a dual socket board (although both sockets do not have to be populated), also the number of memory sockets is borderline ridiculous.

Still, a single processor four core Power9 based system would support 16 threads (at close to twice the operating speed of the X5000).
So, if you were to buy 16-32 X5000...what would that cost?

Remember, these cpus are aimed squarely at the server market.
And they run standard PPC Linux distros (which will still be official supported in future versions for this ISA - an advantage the Freescale PPCs will soon not have).
Also, a TalosII would function pretty well as a single user system.

If, and its a big if, the price of the board was below $5000, I'd be crazy enough to consider it.

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kolla 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 21-Jul-2017 7:30:38
#79 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 688
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hans

Quote:

Successful open-source projects tend to have a group/organisation steering the project (i.e., deciding on the roadmap and which patches to accept), and a business model that brings in the funds needed to pay developers to work on it full-time. Linux, Firefox, Chrome, etc., all have these two things.


First - Chrome is not open source, though it has an open source variant in Chromium.

Secondly - no. The vast majority of "successful" open source projects (if we define that as software that is being maintained and used) is stuff you have barely heard about, mostly developed by individuals and/or very small groups, sometimes as funded projects and sometimes not. Software often has a lifespan in which is it relevant, before something else comes along that does it better. That doesn't mean the old sources are useless, as they still function as reference, documentation and simply history.

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Overflow 
Re: A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures
Posted on 21-Jul-2017 8:50:19
#80 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1411
From: Norway

@Hans

I think most of us get that aspect of it.

I guess what kolla and I are pointing out, is that with legal issues left right and center, there is NO chance of development, cause of the legal risk involved.

With open source there is atleast the chance that someone can be bothered fixing some aspects of the OS. I dont think either of us have any illusions that there will be a 100 man software house ready to code 24/7 the second it goes opensource

Last edited by Overflow on 21-Jul-2017 at 08:50 AM.

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