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      /  Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
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PosterThread
Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 12:17:00
#341 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@Signal

Quote:

So I guess my proposal is compatible uniqueness. At least from my POV. Especially since we lack a horde of developers. Take for instance a sound card. Find the most versatial chip and build a card around it for all Amigas. It could have MIDI in the chip as does the Emu chips, or a separate carrier to which a MIDI chip could be inserted


Is this even feasible given our need for amiga-based compatibility and profitability? Besides, isn't it kinda like what a-eon does with its own interpertations via its custom mobos? Deadalus said everything today changes and requires drivers to support different hardware and implementations and that's what makes the work more difficult. Maybe what you want is a hardware version of sdl. How can a hardware be both unique and portable/largely supported at the same time? You see that even something as freelly ported and supported like opengl eventually becomes this giant layer that the big players have all the resources to shape and optimize.

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 12:32:45
#342 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@Hans

* I doesn't allow me to edit my comment for some reason so I'm continuing here

- high quality chroma upsampling
- high quality scaling (bicubic, mitchell, lanczos, spline etc)
- high quality YCbCr -> RGB conversion
- gamut & gamma correction for display calibration
- full 16bit processing queue
- final 16bit processing result is dithered down to RGB output bitdepth
- bypasses graphics card's video (damage) algorithms
- all work is done via GPU shaders (except madVR's IVTC atm)
- no shortcuts, highest quality has priority over anything else

So if all work is done on the gpu shaders how come when you go deeper it specifically suggests not to use the gpu own native decoding and memory?

** I thought Nova was about rendering in gfx and games. Didn't know it was also about video playback. It's not using the uvd, is it? Can we afford not to use the uvd?

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Signal 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 14:47:56
#343 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 514
From: USA

@Srtest

Back in the 90s a man in Lake Worth Florida was working with Creative and C= to adapt the SBLive to Zorro II/III. The card was in the bus making sound but not yet ready for prime time when things at C= started to go downhill. Of course the project was scrapped.

If it had succeeded then the SBLive could have been a standard for Amiga and also compatible with AmigaOne. Unique yet compatible and feasible, and best of all everyone on the same page.

The same with other hardware. A limited number of developers should not have to jump through hoops trying to keep up with AMD, Creative, Linux, or M$.

Just saying as a user. One of those dumb-ass people whose duty is to spend money and constantly upgrade just to maintain minimal usability.

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 19:49:12
#344 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:
@Srtest @Beans

Adolescents of today who grew with computers, videogames and smartphones, developing a prosthetic limb as Gibson said?
Maybe... but judging from their becaming all zombies, this limb will be similar to a mugwump and not living in the InterZone narrated by Burroughs, but in the InternetZone...


You might laugh but Gibson is a visionary and while parents do sports with their smartphones attached to their elbows looking like morons, their kids really use it as an extension. What you consider practical they consider smartphone usage. Now think about that for a few more minutes. You see? no need to go to the far-fethed reaches of that idea. It's a metaphor because that sometimes how our minds work and while you laugh at the concept the giants are observant and rake over the prize. You can continue to look at it and the youngsters as zombies that use tools while you are being one.

The fact is that audio quality in a lot of phones is horrible. Do people care? of course not because they are the same people who didn't care about mp3 even though it destroyed their favorite music. Their kids don't know any better it doesn't make them any less active and curious about what's around them. I wil try to explaing further in a post that relates to why we are here.

Last edited by Srtest on 26-Sep-2017 at 07:50 PM.

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Hans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 23:35:42
#345 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4788
From: New Zealand

@Srtest

Quote:

Srtest wrote:
@Hans
...
- bypasses graphics card's video (damage) algorithms
- all work is done via GPU shaders (except madVR's IVTC atm)
- no shortcuts, highest quality has priority over anything else

So if all work is done on the gpu shaders how come when you go deeper it specifically suggests not to use the gpu own native decoding and memory?

Guess I misunderstood what you said, and his description. The bit about bypassing the graphics card's own algorithms gave me the impression he was also doing decoding. If it's "just" a very fancy renderer, then it's not going to speed up video decoding. We already have GPU accelerated YUV=>RGB conversion.

Quote:
** I thought Nova was about rendering in gfx and games. Didn't know it was also about video playback.

Warp3D Nova allows you to run custom shader code on the GPU. Yes, that's great for graphics and games in general, but it can also be used for YUV=>RGB, upscaling, image processing filters, and whatever else you can think of that benefits from large scale parallel processing. For example, the author of srec is working on using it to accelerate the RGB=>YUV conversion to boost video encoding speed.

Quote:
It's not using the uvd, is it? Can we afford not to use the uvd?

Correct; Warp3D Nova doesn't use UVD. What I'm talking about is using the GPU for video decoding instead of UVD. It should be possible to at least accelerate parts of the process (e.g., IDCT, motion-compensation, deblocking filter) using shaders.

CoreAVC was a proprietary video codec that used the GPU for H.264 decoding (via CUDA, not OpenGL), so it's definitely possible. I've seen a few open-source projects to achieve the same, but none of them were ever completed.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 26-Sep-2017 at 11:41 PM.

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Raffaele 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 12:46:38
#346 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1795
From: Naples, Italy

@Srtest

You overestimated adolescents. I have a friend of mine with two sons, 17 and 13. He manages the computers in the family and sons play thingies like Angry Birds...

You said parents jogging with phones attached to their elbows looking like morons.
Anyday here in Italy I see adolescents walking with their phones and as long audio is really horrible on many fashion smartphone models they hold the phone horizontally like they are holding a slice of pizza or worst like they are holding a slice of pizza near their ears... who looks more pathetic and ridiculous?

This photo does not express adequately the pose, but it is the only I found.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/young-man-smartphone-hand-makes-voice-request-audio-recording-blue-wall-background-88715024.jpg

Last edited by Raffaele on 27-Sep-2017 at 12:58 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 27-Sep-2017 at 12:48 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 27-Sep-2017 at 12:47 PM.

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wawa 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 15:23:12
#347 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@Srtest

Quote:
parents do sports with their smartphones attached to their elbows looking like morons


kinda makes me imagine, how some jogging parents with their choice of whats left of available os4 systems attached to their whichever body parts might look like, while daydreamig of better future.. and if kids are well given that tratment.

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Beans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 22:29:32
#348 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 439
From: Bear Delaware USA

@QuikSanz

Quote:
Sorry, but this is exactly what Democrats do.


Yeah...um, when did we stray into politics?
Although...politics has gotten pretty mental lately.

And guys, the reason Tabor does not have additional expansion slots, is not the form factor.
Its processor, as I've mentioned before only has six SerDes lanes.
Four would be used by the video card (hopefully), but the additional two don't seem to adequate to support both networking and SATA (that would take three in my estimation).
So, less than four PCI-E lanes to the video card, or slow SATA interface (or as a third possibility something to multiplex the PCI-E lanes like the IDT PCI-E to PCI-E bridge that is used on the X5000 motherboard.

But Hans, thanks for returning us to the hardware discussion.

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Hans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 22:59:49
#349 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4788
From: New Zealand

@Beans

Quote:

Beans wrote:
And guys, the reason Tabor does not have additional expansion slots, is not the form factor.
...

Not sure what you mean by that. The Mini-ITX form factor literally has space for only one PCI/PCIe slot. It's right on the edge of the board.

The board couldn't have another slot even if the processor had more SerDes lanes. TBH, if it had more SerDes lanes, I'd prefer they go to the PCIe connector rather than adding an extra slot.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 27-Sep-2017 23:01:10
#350 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1731
From: Australia

@QuikSanz

Quote:
by QuikSanz on 26-Sep-2017 4:40:07

@Beans,

" But he or she is likely to be receiving their 'counseling' from someone encouraged to pigeon hole them into some category. "



This is EXACTLY right.
I was very, very sick at the end of last year and early this year. Was certain I was on my death bed and I was battling with this, 2 terminally ill parents, family suicides and death threats to myself and my sister.
While not completely well even I could see the danger in the cookie cutter/pigeon hole attitude of the industry. Even more frightening is how stubborn and sure of themselves and the books theyve read so many in the psyche field are. A lot seem more interested in showing how clever they (think they) are.

Ironically the lady who ended up most helpful actually got scolded from her boss a few times because she was actually trying to help and not just go through the (useless) motions.

Such is the cluelessness of most in that field that I started a new career once my health picked up. True insight and knowledge comes from experience, not texts written by people who are claiming to be experts based on best guesses and what they read by "some guy".
Not easy starting a new career in my 40's, but its a field that needs a kick in the butt, new blood and new ideas. Current mental health "experts" and knowledge is so backwards its akin to the old "suck the venom from the wound" type treatment.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic, but its something I've become passionate about.

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 0:44:00
#351 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@Signal

You know what sound card I have in the pc? an Auzentech (doesn't exist anymore) card based on creative technology with ddlive and dts-interactive (everything becomes digital - really makes life easier). You know what driver I'm using? a hacked driver from a user/developer called daniel k who picked up driver developments for creative-based products because it only takes them one year to abandon you. I have sworn never to own a creative product after my first sound card bought from them. The most horrible support I ever seen. So you see? there are things that happern behind the scene that are for the best and getting in bed with creative, which really didn't care when evilcorp destroyed their sound api like eax and made this half-assed workaround called alchemy. Creative did in their field what evilcorp did to everyone only that the entire field of pc sound became irrelevant in the world of "give me more fps in my shooter".

@Raffaele

About Angry birds, again, not a fan of the game (a stupid game), yet it does represents both casual gaming (which I have no issues with) and the ability that we once cherished on the amiga to just put a floppy and go. As a serious gamer who almost never touches casual games, I can really see why young people don't want near those 1-hour installations no matter how good the game is. Tried to install Max Paine 3 once? better clear 2 hours. Well maybe with an ssd... And the point is - who said a game is like a visit to the movie theater or to the theater? maybe it's a 5 minute session when your kid falls asleep. Most AAA games are not like that while a game like Underrail, a heavy rpg made by one guy from Croatia is a game you can go in, play for 10 minutes and go out. The story is its elaborated world. That is part of the reason the ability to just RuninUAE and go like the old days is so much fun and those games are simple to just go at it but their are smarter than casual games.

About smartphones usage like you described all I have to say is this: https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/communicator2-1940x1661-1.jpg
and quote Gibson again: "The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed."
I have another pic in mind that would describe it even better as I can't find the words. The thing is about the extension and how you see yourself and smartphones are part of the social construct.

The way everything is connected to the X5000 and tlosm's post is that the real power issue of today is how to get it and the positive qualities it brings into public and personal usage. You think about home entertainment and all those devices and their os. DuneHD has an os based on linux but it's their own streamlined version. The thing is, their uvd which works so well gives you a home entertainment system at the fraction of the cost - no powerful cpu or gpu are needed. The power is being as smart as smart tvs (for example), not using an 8 core cpu of a machine no one cares about or using a smartphone as a pulse monitor on your elbow.

I guess wawa here is one of those people so he took offence to that... Which is kinda funny because os4 has never been tested in that situation and no one can say what the results would be. However, based on what amiga was in its prime, you really have think if it was ever meant to be the king of the commercial world when it wanted to do stuff like make you a better user so in turn you can make the system better, and so on. I guess also the original amiga team had a dream and made it happen. The grown-up amiga user looks for the positives and tries to do it better in strides not with a magic wand.

@fishy_fis 

I'm very sorry to hear what you went through. I'm no longer in the field and some of the reasons for leaving are what you described and even then I was studying the part of the researchers, not the theraputic one. When you talk about man-machine interface then you have the part when it's a cognitive process and to understand computing today is to also understand the way it relates to us. I hope this community is a better alternative to what you describe and the goal of any field that strives to make you better or heal you can also be so you won't need it (not because of the reasones you mentioned).

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Srtest 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 28-Sep-2017 1:28:51
#352 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 158
From: Israel, Haderah

@Hans

The word fancy isn't accurate because when you present a picture you have different parameters not just the ability to display it. It you talk about a speed boost what are you comparing it against? when all the decoding is done on the gpu? when no hardware decoding is used at all? Madshi says that this is not recommended and it is what people use because they don't know about the madshi renderer and they are using the generic os one with their standard player. If we could port mplayer and made those derivatives like emotion then we already aren't in the generic renderer area. i didn't say I was just using the gpu. The common sense is to make something like madvr so when the time is right and we have multicore support, you will be able to run madvr with almost everything on. You can still use it just like you have different presets when running games in case you don't have the most recent top of the line hardware.

Hans, please check out this pic:

As you can see the gpu decoder that is relevant for an amd card is actually several options. What you see is something I'm using to accompany madvr, called Lav filters (they also come natively with mpc). From the pic, you can either go full native gpu or using the copy-back function of the gpu and both still are using the gpu, while the native option does everything on the gpu and that what's madvr is trying to avoid. Now, this is where I hit a wall becaue one hand is not deep enough in understanding madshi's algorithm and entire structure, and the other doesn't understand the shader logic and usage and all that. However, from where I stand I can still see that it does a little bit of both: YUV=>RGB conversion AND gpu shaders work. It tried to be sophisticated in circumventing the gpu's bad parts that create issues for the outputted picture (and make a ton of htpc device manufactures aimed at the enthusiast market, happy). That also means it isn't a full blown speed boost as not all work is done in gpu and gpu memory and it's not such a loss in speed as you might think just because it has to copy something. That can also help us as we don't use the entire amount of the gpu memory anyway and for that process only 128 are required so it fits both the high end market and the mid-range so even the experts at the avs forums have embraced it. It has presets for every display type available which really makes it flexable for a platform that aims to be different things.

Last edited by Srtest on 28-Sep-2017 at 11:47 PM.
Last edited by Srtest on 28-Sep-2017 at 01:32 AM.
Last edited by Srtest on 28-Sep-2017 at 01:31 AM.

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