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      /  It's time to join the forces - Part IV
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OneTimer1 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 18:11:55
#101 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 962
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:
@OneTimer1

It seems me you forgot (or ignore) that DOS commands in MorphOS were created modifying their AROS counterparts.


I knew this, but this is IMR more then 10 years ago, and you forgot the question I asked you:

Where could one OS (AOS4, MOS, AROS) benefit from one of the others and what could it give in return?

I will reply to your proposals and explain where it is colliding with reality.

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recedent 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 18:27:02
#102 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2010
Posts: 227
From: Tarnów

@wawa

Quote:
i doubt an average morphos fan gets a second hand mac to install morphos on it, because it is so superior in everyday tasks in comparison to a contemporary linux, win or mac pc


Surely not. An average MorphOS fan gets a second hand mac to install MorphOS on it because it's superior in everyday tasks than any Amiga he used in the past, while still retaining the general philosophy he's happy to work with. Heck, he can even run his favourite apps without bothering to emulate the 68k Amiga he keeps in a closet.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 18:27:56
#103 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@OneTimer1

Quote:
Where could one OS (AOS4, MOS, AROS) benefit from one of the others and what could it give in return?


It would be beneficial if few surviving devs worked in the same direction, not 3 (or more). Same goes for the users, I guess, since everyone wants more and faster development.


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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 18:36:24
#104 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@nikosidis

Quote:
Platform i386 64bit and arm. Bring the devs. together from AROS, Morphos and AmigaOS and make the future plan. Sure must act and feel like a normal Amiga. It is a desktop platform people can install on older laptops, arm tv-boxes etc. Only focus for software should be a mothern web-browser and amiga emulator to run the old software. The rest would come by itself if we have that.


To me it sounds like FriendUP OS could be a candidate for that. It's also open source.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 18:41:05
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@recedent

Quote:
while still retaining the general philosophy he's happy to work with.


very vague. the general philosophy that made amiga exeptional has long been incorporated into contempoary mainstream systems. if retaining amiga limitations resulting out of lack of platform development is something desired, the genuine architecture is the best place to seek it.

im certainly not tying to force my preferences on you. whoever is satisfied with mophos at its current state, fine. but dont make it sound as it yous was a more informed choice, than thoses, who still keep amiga at their desk.

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Srtest 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 19:49:07
#106 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@Signal

Of course. It goes along what I said. The idea lives because it makes sense in a parallel sort of way. Only that the lesson is more powerful and that lesson was about the dead end of custom chipsets.

Your railway idea of incorporationg various cpus sounds good, only that it contradicts what seems to be a pretty positive trend (from our side of things) of downplaying the importance of the CPU, which rose in power due to the working of the brute force philosophy which is not a philosophy at all.

It seems like the Xena was an idea about incorporationg cpus in more of a flexible way only that it became a hobby of people who had access to it.

The old school software idea of ScummVM of incorporating engines into a (mostly) single case of implementaion makes sense because it doesn't limit an engine to an obsolete vehicle and takes it out of an outdated system and places it into a modern casing. That flexibility is something that not a lot of cpus can exhibit. Maybe the open power ones will be different only that when thinking about a universal platform you can't base it on something ehich will probably won't happen. If you check something like the GPU you can see much more fundamental changes through the years and an ability to use it in adjustable ways via software and hardware, and of course, more and more usages are diverted towards it nowadays. If you can put a certain processor in a tv and that tv functions as all sorts of things then maybe it's time to move beyond the basic pc model, which was never our model to begin with. We were always "smart".

Last edited by Srtest on 23-Jan-2018 at 09:09 PM.

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bison 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 21:03:42
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
To me it sounds like FriendUP OS could be a candidate for that. It's also open source.

I'm still trying to figure out what FriendUP OS actually is. I don't think it's really an operating system. As far as I can tell it's a cloud server that runs on Linux which users access through a web browser, which provides an Amiga-like environment with remote apps and file storage.

So it's not hardware->FriendUP, it's more like hardware->Windows->Chrome->FriendUp or hardware->macOS->Chrome->FriendUP.

Have I got this right?


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"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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Signal 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 21:27:06
#108 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@Srtest

Quote:
incorporationg various cpus sounds good, only that it contradicts what seems to be a pretty positive trend (from our side of things) of downplaying the importance of the CPU, which rose in power due to the working of the brute force philosophy which is not a philosophy at all.


Brute Force. Imagine if the classics ran at 2GHz.
The perfect description of all the NG motherboards. Got a bottleneck? Make it go faster, do benchmarks, SMP is coming to the rescue.
We have a standard PC motherboard with an odd processor. The X series are no better than the A1XE boards from 15 years ago as far as being Amiga's'. It seems OS4 is only an Amiga emulator, to me.


Quote:

Maybe the open power ones will be different only that when thinking about a universal platform you can't base it on something will probably won't happen


Well, if openPOWER is the way to go then quit screwing around in Microsofts playground and get back to J. Miners' beautiful concept of hardware and software working in unison. Set a task directed to the hardware suited to do the job and wait for that task until it needs further data or control.

Quote:

then maybe it's time to move beyond the basic pc model, which was never our model to begin with. We were always "smart".


I totally agree. We have been messing around with this 'make do' tech far to long. It's crap, and making it faster will only provide faster crap, not an Amiga.

P.S. I don't think CPU is a proper designation for the POWER chips, perhaps Multiple Execution Units (MEU) would better describe them.

P.S.S. As for cooperation, co-ordination, collaboration,,,, ForGetAboutIt. The only thing that might work is a professional Cat Herder.

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

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OneTimer1 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 21:55:50
#109 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 962
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:

It would be beneficial if few surviving devs worked in the same direction, not 3 (or more). Same goes for the users, I guess, since everyone wants more and faster development.


You are not Raffaele but I will answer.

All teams have a working OS ...

The AOS4 devs might work on a port to AEon hardware something no one from MOS or AROS is interested in. AOS4.2 might still be a target but I believe Tabor has a higher priority. And maybe they will sell an updated AOS3.x in summer.

The MOS team might work on the next version that might have support some more PPC systems (other Macs, A1X5K, ...) long term target is a port to AMD64 or ARM. No one knows much about it and no one will see the code because it is personal ownership of the MOS developers.

The AROS developers are still working on ABI_V1 that might be the next broadly supported AROS system when it is ready for 64Bit. Some are tinkering with multiprocessing, but that more a research for parts that must be changed in AROS Exec ( something not used by MOS or AOS4).

So I don't see much parts where they could work together ... OK. If AROS would has some progress with MP they could lend some ideas there but not the other way around.

And if you are talking about application development, this was thought never a task for one of the OS teams.

---

Remark:
There are some people on AROS-Exec talking about supporting an developer for the Odyssey Web browser. But I don't think they are interested in fixing the endianess issue.

http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=10721&forum=2&post_id=106564#forumpost106564

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Zylesea 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 22:22:18
#110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@recedent

Quote:
Retrogaming for nostalgic bunch of ex-Amiga users.


with all due respect i doubt an average morphos fan gets a second hand mac to install morphos on it, because it is so superior in everyday tasks in comparison to a contemporary linux, win or mac pc. the activity and the number of registered hardware speak for themselves.

You always understeimate /belittle MorphOs (or the other NGs). At least I (and i am not the only one) am using MorphOS not as a hobby/retro machine, but as primary everyday system and because of some benefit it offers me over others OSes (which I also use and have for their few particular dedicated jobs) . But MorphOS is _not_ a hobby for me - it's my preferred generic system I use for normal tasks. Nevertheless I would love ho have more raw cpu power, more RAM and more applications. And the browser is of course the most critical and important program today.

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 23-Jan-2018 23:32:29
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Zylesea

Quote:
But MorphOS is _not_ a hobby for me


to each his own, but i imagine it would be replacable if it ceased to exist, while you would pobably run into existential problems trying to replace your other systems with it in a long term.

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Srtest 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 24-Jan-2018 0:49:25
#112 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 259
From: Israel, Haderah

@Signal

Why would you need the classics to run at 2ghz? do you really want something that you consider a classic to be something else? would you like Mozart recorded digitally with different musical instruments? nothing can compete with the classic Amiga as it has a power of its own (no pun intended). It's about your perspective not a single thread (also no pun intended - but embraced) of pushing it through a certain limit. When Amiga used to say to you - what will you do with it, it basically said to you that it is something much more subjective than what you're used to. That was a big part of its magic. We were also different back then.

Something like the X1k with the AOS4.1 is as much of an Amiga as any classic in the year 2018. just like it works the other way of what happens when you expect a classic to do modern stuff, so it is about the current crop of Amiga-1s enabling you to use computers in a different way, a much more user-shaped one, inspired by the ways of old. Those who try to pit one against the other are not a part of it. I also question their ability to see what lies ahead. I am more open to those who appreciate the ability to go back and forth between 4.1 and 3.1 on the same platform.

You don't think about a bottleneck as being your ability to influence stuff on your intrument of vitrual experience shaping. Likewise, you also don't think about your ability to just do something with as little of a hassle as you can think about. In addition, you don't think about the combining of the two and about the barriers which prohibit you from joining others and going beyond your single user (or developer) level. Because similarly, like processing that doesn't rely on a cpu, it isn't a one way thing.

You know just like I do that an ecological system is much more than getting from A to B. It's about what happens while you are getting from A to B and what happens when you are at B that is different from A.

There are a lot of cliches that are strengthened when you look at something and see exactly what they told you. Like that young people always accomplish stuff faster than older people. Just look at young people and their smartphones compared to my dad. Only that when the same young person is removed from said smartphone and is placed, I don't know, in front of an A1-AOS4.1, suddenly my slowest moves appear instant to her because she is not used to getting things done so quickly and in my way of doing it. Those certain differences aren't a war between newer and older. Because if AOS4.1 on the X1k looks to her like a tv then that's also a conceptual insight that is relevant to us. In finding a way to communicate our way of doing it Amiga-style to those who are unfamiliar. If you're saying this is a pc, it does nothing for you, only limits what you think you can do with it. If you're presenting it as a pc to others then you are obliged to supply them every mediocre service the pc has and you also take upon yourself its limitations in appreciating what is an Amiga, on top of the limitations an Amiga has.

You talk about what is a Power cpu and how it might not be a cpu. I can even think about a cpu not being a cpu... and if you check out today's cpus a lot of them are SOCs which can also be reffered to as efficiency chips. They bring certain computational elements closer together. Just like a co-op between the different Amiga camps is something that has always existed on some level and a reimagining of it today in a way which will benefit all doesn't mean removing yourself from this place of relative strength. It's just means it's worth it to downplay it as that source of power and focus on broadening your perspecitves to places where we are not so different. Like writing on a single Amiga forum and sharing a community.

Last edited by Srtest on 24-Jan-2018 at 01:00 AM.

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Raffaele 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 24-Jan-2018 8:47:22
#113 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@nikosidis

Quote:

nikosidis wrote:
To make some interest outside Amiga world I vote to fork the whole thing and bring in memory protection etc. No apps. would work anymore but it is a new start that at least could have some future.
I can tell you that noone outside Amigaworld is interested because it does not have that. It is considered old fasion and stupid for a mothern OS to not have MP.



You Can vote anytime you want but AmigaOS and MorphOS are closed source and the decision to abandoning Amiga Legacies is up to their respective owners.

AROS developers choose to add some sort of SMP without abandoning their current Amiga 3.1 API. It is a solution of very difficult implementing.

Technically MorphOS Quark Microkernel has all modern features such as Multiuser capabilities, Memory protection and SMP multiprocessor, but It never got an API and a interface, so It is pratically unusable.

Last edited by Raffaele on 24-Jan-2018 at 09:39 AM.

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 24-Jan-2018 9:22:48
#114 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@OneTimer1

Quote:
So I don't see much parts where they could work together


Well, if they continue as they have for the past 15 years, all will vanish.
OS4 is practically dead, as is MorphOS, judging by the speed of the development. There are few active users, even fewer active developers. How long can this continue? I think it's blatantly obvious that NG Amiga is dying, just look at the forums activity these days and how much new software is being developed.
So, the choice is either unite or vanish. I don't see a third option for any of the 3 OSes. Even if by some miracle the 3 parties are united, it's still a very tough battle of staying relevant and attractive for new users.

Now, I have said that I very much doubt any unification will occur, simply because of the past 15 years of animosity between camps. That leaves only AROS as having some kind of a future mainly because it's open source. OS4 and MorphOS will fade into history.

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Raffaele 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 24-Jan-2018 9:25:45
#115 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:
@OneTimer1

It seems me you forgot (or ignore) that DOS commands in MorphOS were created modifying their AROS counterparts.


I knew this, but this is IMR more then 10 years ago, and you forgot the question I asked you:

Where could one OS (AOS4, MOS, AROS) benefit from one of the others and what could it give in return?

I will reply to your proposals and explain where it is colliding with reality.



I tought I was chatting with intelligent people, not with dumb people like wawa who even I refuse to answer his stupid provoking request to show what is superiority of AmigaOS in ease of use.

Your comment is really extremely stupid if you cant comprehend that if collaboration has been set up in the past between AROS camp and MorphOS camp, it could be set up in the future too, and both Operating Systems camps got benefit from their collaboration.

Or perhaps you simulated your lack of comprehension in order to let readers think no even any collaborations are possible?

If your attitude is so freaking stupid or you are trying to let it pass the idea that no collaboration is possible in the real world, feel free not reply me in the future.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Zylesea 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 24-Jan-2018 9:39:27
#116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@Zylesea

Quote:
But MorphOS is _not_ a hobby for me


to each his own, but i imagine it would be replacable if it ceased to exist, while you would pobably run into existential problems trying to replace your other systems with it in a long term.


That's highly hypothetical. MorphOS does exist and will not stop working out of the sudden. But of course I can (to a certain degree) replace every system with some other.
And if e.g Windows would suddenly stop working - no big issue either. I can replace all things I do on Windows with solutions based on other operating sytems (Linux/Android, OS X/iOS, even Amiga & co,). Same for each other system.
And while MorphOS is my primary system I always pursue a multi system approach with high redundancy.

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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Raffaele 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 24-Jan-2018 9:43:57
#117 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:

It would be beneficial if few surviving devs worked in the same direction, not 3 (or more). Same goes for the users, I guess, since everyone wants more and faster development.


You are not Raffaele but I will answer.



This declaration of love you rather prefer my comments to someone else ones is quite embarassing.

Last edited by Raffaele on 24-Jan-2018 at 09:44 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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OneTimer1 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 24-Jan-2018 21:22:13
#118 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 962
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote:
@OneTimer1

Quote:



Where could one OS (AOS4, MOS, AROS) benefit from one of the others and what could it give in return?




I tought I was chatting with intelligent people, ...
.


You could have take the chance proofing your will to chat by answering a simple question.

You failed.

And instead you insulted me and all the other people here.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 24-Jan-2018 at 09:24 PM.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 24-Jan-2018 22:13:59
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:
superiority of AmigaOS in ease of use.


this secret feature must be crucial for understanding the popularity of amiga spinoff systems today.

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Raffaele 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 25-Jan-2018 1:11:46
#120 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:

You could have take the chance proofing your will to chat by answering a simple question.

You failed.

And instead you insulted me and all the other people here.


I am pissed off to repeat things that are of public domain to naysayers like you.

We all know what is Amiga and why we use It and what are the benefits of intercamp cooperation.
Mainly we all know the difficulties of this platforms and the lack of Big Endian coders.
And if you have nothing to share with the Amiga philosophy you will be welcome in Windoze and Macholic world... They are always chasing new user base.

Stop infecting this community with your poison and migrate to platform where you will be welcome by dozillions people like you.

Any further discussion is Just a waste of time and efforts with people like you and your behaviour that consists in childish provoking by dare other people to prove again and again what they are stating.

Well I got tired of proof again and again obvious and notorious things that are well known to Amiga users and I feel to be aggressive and offensive as a response to your behaviour from now on.

Do you feel offended? That was my precise intention. Report me to moderators if you feel my behaviour violated this site policy.

My advice to this community is that if someone is tired of this situation and he wants to move the things in this Little Amiga pond then he should let's stop talking with naysayers and may he start directly any projects. It is not time anymore time to talk and discussing with people continuously dismantling any projects and any proposals.

It is time to DO something...

If the project is not valid It will die of natural death. If the project is valid It will survive naturally.

Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 02:27 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 02:24 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 02:02 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 02:01 AM.

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