@Amigo1

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Amigo1 wrote: @wawa Quote: wawa wrote: no. not in my view. im fine to call it aros, whether it runs on pc, amiga or whatever else. since when does aros run on amiga?

In its version called "AROS Vision" if I remember well...

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

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In its version called "AROS Vision" if I remember well...

thats just the name of olafs distro, which is a compilation of aros68k and a whole bunch of free amiga software.

@Raffaele

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t is time to DO something... If the project is not valid It will die of natural death. If the project is valid It will survive naturally.

exactly. the problem is when people just want to talk about what they might do, if they could, endlessly, in expectation that someone else will actually do it.

@wawa

easy to use is just depending on the desktops, not a real OS feature

And in my view driver support and software base are much more important for how good is a system if you want to use it productive and not just as a hobby platform and for fun now and then. And there none of the NG platforms is competitive. BTW this would not change even if f.e. MorphOS would support all modern features like MP and SMP and be 64bit and run on modern hardware. You would have just a fast OS without (or at least with not much) software.

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @wawa easy to use is just depending on the desktops, not a real OS feature And in my view driver support and software base are much more important for how good is a system if you want to use it productive and not just as a hobby platform and for fun now and then. And there none of the NG platforms is competitive. BTW this would not change even if f.e. MorphOS would support all modern features like MP and SMP and be 64bit and run on modern hardware. You would have just a fast OS without (or at least with not much) software.

Sure drivers support is necessary and one of the key features of ease or use (take this wawa) is the fact Amiga is a Microkernel system not a Monolithic Kernel one, so at least fortunately we could teorethically add any drivers without problem of upgrading kernel or recompling it any time we need add new hardware.

AmigaOS drivers are just modular and mainly in form of libraries.

We Just need money to pay existing developers for their job and perhaps hire more and create new drivers.

[b[This is our major need... How to inject more money in the Amga ecologic system.[/b]

Any ideas?

Once I proposed to call Venture Capitals from Islam Banks investing in western technology.
It is an idea like another (pay attention I already proposed it) but I am not owner of AmigaOS or MorphOS, neither I belong to AROS Team Squad, so I am not entitled for surveying or choosing the most serious and reliable Bank neither I could take contact with any Islam Bank that could help us, presenting me as offical Amiga representative (I have no any official position in AmigaOS or MorphOS teams so I respectfully stay and see).

Regarding your last point of view perhaps I will not spit over a complete updated MorphOS because even without modern software it will be a starting point...

With a standard modern API system, then developers could start coding new software on precise references, not reinventing the wheel anytime, in order to add thru software missing features the OS lacks of.

Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 11:23 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 11:09 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

you guys sometimes seem to live in a different world... to get money (be it venture capital or from a bank) you need a detailled business plan and there you have to explain what you want to do, how much money you need and when you make profits and how. And you need to explain of course your technical decisions and why AmigaOS and not something that is more common. To persuade investors you would need more than just "it is simple to use"...

@OlafS25

Not to count that you have to explain why there are different groups not cooperating all together and that, due to some fight, patents and rights are splitted here and there.

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retired

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @Raffaele you guys sometimes seem to live in a different world... to get money (be it venture capital or from a bank) you need a detailled business plan and there you have to explain what you want to do, how much money you need and when you make profits and how. And you need to explain of course your technical decisions and why AmigaOS and not something that is more common. To persuade investors you would need more than just "it is simple to use"...

It seems to me I am talking with deaf or dumb people... (Or dumb & deaf at the same time)

Maybe It is the language difference that made so difficult to distinguish proposals from actions.

I Will explain my thoughts by listing It with numbers.

If anyone finds this too difficult please tell me that I will draw figures next time.

1) I Just had the idea.

2) I suggested it to Amiga teams.

3) I am not entitled to do anymore because It is not my business, neither It is my responsibility.

4) It is matter for Hyperion or MorphOS team to evaluate the proposals to choosing best form of Venture Capital, find a reliable Bank and presenting themselves to Bank clerks with a precise Business Plan.

5) Business Plan is a matter for the teams NOT mine...

6) Finding excellence point of their product (Operating System) is a matter of the teams who know in the detail what product they are selling to public.
Excellence points have to be included in the Business Plan.

7) If teams are uncapable to make one the there are professionals who could be paid for writing one.

8) Endpoint

-----

Plan B

Perhaps Just to introduce a new way of financing Amiga I wonder why in this Age of Internet Crowdfunding no Hyperion neither MorphOS Team came out with a request of being funded by the community neither any developers came out asking for a patronage on Patreon.

Paying One EURO per month on Patreon for supporting out developers is not difficult.

For example I calculated I can spend Just 10 euro per month on Patreon, this could made me supporting 10 Amiga developers at a time with no problems for my incomes.
If only any other Amigans could be so glad to donate at the same time, then our developers had had a little precious (monthly) income sum of cash in order to benefit their efforts.

Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 12:08 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 12:02 PM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 11:55 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

I am out of this senseless discussion

for the record... I am neither dumb nor deaf and at least from what I read most people are realistic and smart people

enough said...

@OlafS25

With this attitude of yours then Jay Miner had had never created the Amiga never had had the idea of being funded by Dentist doctors...

Last edited by Raffaele on 25-Jan-2018 at 12:25 PM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele
@OlafS25

This wasn't really the spirit of this thread. Quite the contrary.

Take a deep breath and start proposing somethins interesting, despite the different opinion one or the other can have.

I know your both good guy

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retired

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote: Take a deep breath and start proposing somethins interesting, despite the different opinion one or the other can have.

Common, open hardware. Then competition, cooperation, collaboration can benefit the platform.

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

@Raffaele

Oh, O.K. so AROS does not run on Amiga, in fact I searched on the WWW and could not find any reference for that.

thanks.

p.s. I like your opinion about the amiga situation and what to do to help it go forward.

@Amigo1

AROS run on Amiga 68k and even NG Amiga PPC.
AROS is very portable so there are versions for i386 both 32bit and 64bit and even Arm.

NG Amiga or MorphOS is in no way more Amiga than AROS is. If you want the real thing you have to go 68k and when Commodore owned Amiga but that is not what the thread is about.

It seams to me that someone things something is what it is cause of the name.

Last edited by nikosidis on 26-Jan-2018 at 11:04 AM.

@Amigo1

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Oh, O.K. so AROS does not run on Amiga, in fact I searched on the WWW and could not find any reference for that.

better cover your eyes and ears quickly, another unpleasant news, not even questionable anymore, might actually reach you:

http://apollo-core.com/bringup/V500AROSBoot2.jpg

i have been testing aros on my a1200 and a4000 with different configurations since the aros kickstart replacement project began, thats been now few years.

@nikosidis

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NG Amiga or MorphOS is in no way more Amiga than AROS is. If you want the real thing you have to go 68k and when Commodore owned Amiga but that is not what the thread is about.

Why bring it up then? Amiga Corp. was doing fine before Commodore got involved other than the Video Games crash in the USA. I think better outcomes for the platform would have existed if Amiga Corp. had managed to remain independent or if Atari had taken ownership of the custom chips. The Atari ST would have had the Amiga custom chips and also have had high resolution monochrome modes it always had to beat the Mac. In addition, Jack Tramiel would be agressively pushing the platform and the market would not have been split between Amiga/ST games titles with no use being made of the Amiga custom chips in 1985 as happened! Commodore did the Amiga a great disservice IMHO and while I'm glad for Zorro 3, AGA and the A4000T and CD32, the Ranger was more existing for 1987 technology and Atari would have had an Atari ST with Amiga custom chips ready in 1985 not 1987 with the A500! Yes, we'd have missed out on the A1000 and Debbie Harry / Andy Warhol etc but the Amiga Corp. vision might have survived. The Amiga wasn't just the next C64 to shove in a similar wedge case and that's what Commodore Executives thought it was in the end. Irving Gould thought the problem with the A1000 was it didn't have IBM PC compatibility

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

The thread is about the future or Amiga like OS. Is it not?

What is more Amiga?
What is less Amiga?
Is there an axis where at one side you get your pure holy Amiga and on the other side you get something which doesn't have 1% percent of Amiga?
Are there basic fundamental conditions for something being a "real Amiga"?
Maybe a time machine is the only real Amiga...
Well, that or a holo deck so 50 year olds could still brag about having the strongest home computer on earth.

Last edited by Srtest on 27-Jan-2018 at 06:11 PM.

@Srtest
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Srtest wrote: I would gladly embrace whatever leadership there is instead of the selfish and splintered my way or the highway minded folks who are a vocal minority here and seem to need the smaller 4.1 base (compared to the classic one) to make their points and be heard.

To embrace a leadership you should have (and prove) the ability first. Then you need capable people (but see below, close to the end) that can follow you.

The problem is that you haven't the technical skills (you're not a coder, like you stated) neither the management skills (see the answers that you already received). So, you have no authority and credibility to lead someone else.
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Just like you could see on that Arstechinka article when all the ones who live on whatever happens in 4.1 land, came out to try and use that article to hurt 4.1 and steer the ship.

Easy words that are blatantly trying to cover the reality: you don't like the FACTS that were reported. The article contained several wrong facts and statements, which were discussed in the comments. Of course, OS4 integralists like you complained about that reality/facts-check, but it was expected.

Just to be clear: if there's something wrong in the comments, you are free to reply and show it: the ArsTechnica forum is free, right? At least much more free of many "Amigans" forums...
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Trying to hide that behaviour is some shameful stuff. It's here and from everything I've read it's been here for years trying to stop whatever was developed.

Please, let us know how is possible that some free speech hurt/can hurt any post-Amiga development. Because it looks quite surreal.
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BTW, I see that on Amiga.org when someone does the same to you on you precious Vamp you lose your senses because you get to taste some of your own medicine. No thank you. If I need to choose between the agenda-driven personalities here and perhaps some small minded leadership it's not a choice at all.

Well, going back on topic, maybe you (and many others) need a big reality check against the status of the post-Amiga "sons".

OS4 is a dead man walking. The development of the infamous 4.2 version is taking many years, and I'm pretty sure that the promises will not be maintained. No SMP, no Gallium, no 64-bit support (no: the 8-bit era bank switching works with an extension of the 32-bit PowerPC ISA. 64 bits aren't needed neither required). If/when it'll be released, it'll bring only some water down things, like some form of AMP, only the new Nova graphic extension/subsystem, and the bank switching which is here to stay (sorry: if there's one thing that you can absolutely forget about OS4, is a 64-bit version of it and/or support for 64-bit applications).

MorphOS users are still waiting the 3.10 version, after more than 2 years. I saw it in action in Neuss, at the Amiga event. It looked nice on the AmigaOne X5000. But, still, unreleased. It's also known that the team lost a member, which kept his own sources (AFAIK), so probably they had some trouble and likely had to rewrite the missing parts.
Anyway it's also well known that they are abandoning the PowerPC platform to embrace an alive ISA, like x64 (this was the consensus, from what I've read). However, due to the nature of MorphOS (but the same happens with any Amiga o.s or rewritings!), a completely change of ISA means loosing backwards compatibility and rewriting A LOT OF stuff. Last but not really least, introducing some "alien" (to the Amiga o.s.) technology like memory protection, SMP, resource tracking, etc. substantially means writing a completely new o.s., which can only barely remind the Amiga o.s.. So, it's both a HUGE amount of work and, at the very end, a completely new product.

AROS already supports many different ISAs (x64 included, which brought PLENTY of directly addressable memory: no crappy bank switching here!), but for this reason it isn't fully backwards compatible (only the 68K version is). It's open source, improved, and can improve a lot to reach the infamous 1.0 goal (when? Who knows). However it's lacking developers, and some key figures already disappeared. So, even if it's open source, it can enter the limbo and rest in peace without people working on it.

That's talking about the o.ses. Now talking about microprocessors, it should be clear now (hopefully) that PowerPC is dead and entered the legacy status, like 6502, 6800, 68K, Z80, etc. etc. Only POWER is going ahead, but it's not "desktop class". Anyway it's having hard times with the Intel competition, ARM which is entering the server market too, and the newly born and promising RISC-V (it's question of time, and this ISA will cut a slice of any market: from embedded to HPC, passing through mobile, desktop and server).
So, you need to switch to a mainstream ISA. Even because big-endian is now completely abandoned by all mainstream processors (IBM only supports little-endian with its new POWER processors; AFAIK modern Linux distributions are available only in LE format). Even RISC-V adopted little-endian for the same reasons. And, as you know, without big-endian support you cannot have indispensable things like a Javascript JIT compiler. Hence -> no good, modern browser -> without a modern browser you already entered the legacy status (your platform become a retro-gaming/computing one).

68K is revived by the Vampire project, however 68K itself is a dead ISA, and even with this new project it'll not become mainstream anymore. The question is very simple: Vampire acquires users/customers from the same user base (see below).
And another thing: 68K is big-endian too, so it shares the same issues described above.

BTW, the only post-Amiga platform which are constantly received a MASSIVE amount of support is... UAE. WinUAE, particularly, is extremely active, thanks to a single developer (Toni Wilen), which created an impressive, amazing, astonishing piece of software. There's nothing in the post-Amiga panorama that can compete in features and development.

Finally, one of the most important facts about the topic: the people. We are aging, and getting older means that the Amiga community doom is to slowly disappear. There are still some couple of thousands of hard core, grumpy, old men which are split in those 4 communities, but this number will not increase: it only decreases passing time.

There's really nothing that can be made to improve the situation: nobody can do it. Unfortunately the train was already lost many years ago. And this "Part IV" appeal cannot bring "A New Hope", but it's the tombstone where the epitaph says: "The Hope is Lost".

You just need to accept the situation and enjoy what you have, whatever platform you like to use, until everything will go at a natural end.

It's not a problem of OS, CPUs or people age.
The problem is the lack (from 1994) of a real mother house who owns everything (OS, IPs, Amiga and Commodore marks), with a real budget and a clear project about it.

You could easily sell tens or hundreds of thousands machines, in the retro and in the NG market with a real society behind some good products.
But, we all know this is very unlikely to happen, or almost impossible.

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