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Condor 
I don't get this no more......
Posted on 17-Mar-2015 22:54:12
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 191
From: Zagreb, Croatia

I recently found, this all amiga feelengs goes very wrong.....
Why?
We all together known all about AmigaOs, sistem and everything about awesome playground of this old and unique sistem we love so much.
We all kwown that is very nice place to play old games with great passion.

We have lots of old/native software to produce this or even better games from OCS/ECS/AGA/24bit machines so I don't get why on Earth we don't do enything, just blagling from year to year about "Amiga is dead, so move on



Ok my point is pretty stupid....we are all old (and I think, pretty smart) and we don't to move that fast like the Earth or Hyperion, maybe we are problably death...... but my point is we toghter can make real money which will produce everything, even new software od hardware. ( I will shoutdown my j0int right now)
Well only few people think that is possibile, but this is problally lack of passion or we are all death and this is probbably just is.

Last edited by Condor on 17-Mar-2015 at 11:04 PM.
Last edited by Condor on 17-Mar-2015 at 10:55 PM.

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Dirk-B 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 17-Mar-2015 23:34:32
#2 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

@Condor

I see only one thing that is working:

Amiga/Commodore - meetings

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Tuxedo 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 17-Mar-2015 23:43:07
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2341
From: Perugia, ITALY

@Condor

Honeslty I think that:

Also if 100 of us(that was a realistic number), will donate 100€(a realistic median value since many of us was in trouble with money unfortunately) we gets 10000 € that was a really stupid amount of money(about 8 months normal work salary) how will left its work to gets an 8 months adventure?
I think that your point(that I also share) can be really usefull if we can set up at lest 50000€ to pay at least 2 (good)programmers for an year of full AmigaOS development(at least 22000 each that wasnt so much but acceptable I think) and still buy the developped OS to support all other development costs like managment and so...
And than one programmer for 2/3 months to modify Qemu to can run AmigaOS4.x and also gets JIT(dunno if one person for 2/3 months development was realistic for that task honestly), to remove ALL hw problems we have for a while...
I also think that at least a double amount of that(100000) was really a nice value to have something really interesting in the hands in not so much time...
And however I think that wasnt really enough...
That was a really difficult scenario imho since the tiny market we have...do you tought to make more money?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 1:24:32
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12796
From: Norway

@Tuxedo

Well the book kickstarter projects show there is real money in this community, it easy to setup a Kickstarter for book project, call a few people get some comments, or find old interviews in old magazines etc, then send it to printing.

For developer this not always easy, to promise that you are going deliver x in y time, because there is the unknown factor, not having done something before.

It easier to promise that I'm going make x, and stick to things I know, write it from ground up, but that can take longer than let's say if someone finds something to port, but if you find something to port, you not know if it's portable unless you have tried, and find out if you have everything. Alternatively, if something is missing you need to port other stuff as well.

But what I can say is, it's more likely that you get your result soon then latter with full time funding.

What can be done is that, developer setup project plan the milestones, for etch milestones; show what is done, so that the community is see results.

I also hate when things go on behind closed doors, not knowing what is done or not.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Mar-2015 at 01:54 PM.

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Chuckt 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 3:37:31
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2008
Posts: 445
From: Unknown

@Condor

I started on the Commodore 64 and moved up to the Commodore 128 and then Amiga 500.

The magazines back in the day were Compute!, Compute's Gazette!, Ahoy, The Transactor, Run, Amigaworld, and a few more.

Back then there were computer wars. They taught "religion" as in Commodore was the right way and everyone else was the wrong way.

Commodore was an economic cult: They said that Commodore users were the most loyal until Jack Tramiel admitted in an interview that there was no loyalty. Commodore was an economic cult. Then one day Commodore went bankrupt and eyes were open that Commodore wasn't the end to all things.

I went broke trying to buy as much Amiga stuff as possible before I went to college and when I came out of college, Commodore was bankrupt. What a shock.

I had ten years worth of files and a computer that broke. Imagine losing ten years worth of files and being orphaned.

Anyway, I'm glad that people found computers on Ebay and I'm glad they have machines like the Minimig. I didn't buy Amiga from Eyetech because I thought the first round would have bugs and I'd rather have a second generation Amiga. Then Software Hut stopped selling them.

I had waited around for someone to do something with the I.P. Emscom went bankrupt. Gateway didn't do anything.

I'm a little sad. Guess I should do what the Computer Science professor said in college. IBM is for business and one of the industry mags is the Bible to them. Who else can compete against government contracts and business? Not Commodore.

So either people learn C and hardware or you stay with nostalgia.

I surveyed all of the microcontrollers and computer chips that I could get off the shelf to make a computer. I'm learning ARM. I'm not sure I would get anywhere because making a computer is for hundreds of people which is what companies do.

Amiga folks can do whatever they like. The younger generation is using the Raspberry Pi. That is another ARM product.

I'm using off the shelf parts and I know that I can't get Commodore users and Amiga users to leave their hardware and make something more modern. Pretty soon, unless there is more Amiga hardware, your systems are going to get too old to function, your numbers will dwindle and there won't be a user base to push for newer tech. If you have a maker mentality and less of a computer mentality, you will want to make new hardware. If you have a consumer mentality then you will always let someone else make it.

I learned programming on the Commodore 64 and that defines what computers are to me. Everyone else buys the program. I use to type the Compute's Gazette programs in for hours and get them working. I'm the true Commodore Geek. A lot of others are just letting people define what computers are for them. They are consumers and not makers.

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Condor 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 9:42:52
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Feb-2004
Posts: 191
From: Zagreb, Croatia

Imagine something like this....I am good with graphic/3D, someone here can produce great music/mods, we have awesome software for making multiplaform games thanks to Andreas and Hollywood. We have very long expirence of gaming so we know what is lack in modern games.

After playing many new games on PS3, X360 and Wii I found that games like old ugly LaserSquad gives much more joy than many just push x,x,x ps3 games.

All we have to do is to be creative again and use software wihich we have to make something great and sell it to the world.
I have great idea for one type of game and I also think that this game can make money.
Not in amigaland but in mainstream world.

I do graphic for that game and I also learn to use Hollywod to make engine of this game and its hard to do all by myself.
After reading many amiga forums I also found that asking for help will produce only few kb of text here and there, nothing more.
We have to learn from 8 bits scene which still produce more games than all amiga community.

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Lazi 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 11:14:08
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Apr-2005
Posts: 650
From: Pomaz, Hungary

@Condor

Graphics artist what I searching for. Please look here.

It is an incomplete showcase of my incomplete Hollywood projects.

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umisef 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 12:01:41
#8 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Tuxedo

Quote:
we gets 10000 € that was a really stupid amount of money(about 8 months normal work salary) how will left its work to gets an 8 months adventure?


Uh, that's about 7.20 Euro per hour --- which is less than the minimum legal wage in Germany, for example. And that's before considering overheads (office rent, accounting, public holidays, annual leave etc).

But you are talking about paying programmers (or, really, software engineers --- because OS development involves a lot more design than actual programming) to do highly qualified work. Minimum wage is not even a consideration at that point.

To put it into perspective --- you are talking about exactly the kind of work I am doing. 10,000 Euro is roughly what I make in one month. It gets worse, however --- I am long-term employed by a consultancy company, and the company charges me out to clients for shorter-term (up to a year) projects. When buying my services through my employer, 10,000 Euro is enough for only half a month.


So unless you were planning on outsourcing to India (good luck finding Amiga-aware software engineers there...), your estimates are almost am order of magnitude too low.

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Tuxedo 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 13:01:41
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2341
From: Perugia, ITALY

@umisef

well...for sure you have a really high salary imho...
Here in Italy a 1200/1300 salary was a median value and starting to 1500+ was justa good salary...
However your point on software engineer was right...I maybe oversimplified the work however I dont think what we need was an engeneer...I look for some development force not and entire full rated equip...we may already have an engeneer in AmigaOS development team that can coordiante the work, we only need "rude" develompent force I think...or maybe some sort of incentive to ppl already working on to speedup their work...
Just leaving that away however also if we can pay a ranked engeneer for 2/3 motnhs full time work was really not so bad...or not?

Sincew you seems in the correct busines, what do you think was the really correct salary/month and minimu mtime to spend for 2 persons to made some good improvement to actual AmigaOS situation?

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Jupp3 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 15:33:23
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@Chuckt

Quote:
Back then there were computer wars.

Many people seem to think that the old "platform wars" are gone. They're wrong.

It's basically the same thing that's now happening on mobile devices (phones, tablets...), and of course on console side, the wars are at least as fierce as it was in the 80's and the 90's.

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cv643d 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 15:35:48
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2009
Posts: 262
From: Stockholm - Sweden

@umisef

Congrats, you must be a millionaire?

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kolla 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 16:02:41
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@cv643d

Cost of living is higher up north too, you should know :)

Last edited by kolla on 18-Mar-2015 at 04:03 PM.

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Chuckt 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 19:53:04
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2008
Posts: 445
From: Unknown

@Jupp3

Quote:

Jupp3 wrote:
@Chuckt

Quote:
Back then there were computer wars.

Many people seem to think that the old "platform wars" are gone. They're wrong.

It's basically the same thing that's now happening on mobile devices (phones, tablets...), and of course on console side, the wars are at least as fierce as it was in the 80's and the 90's.


I have a Kindle, two broken Android tablets and one that is working and an Android phone.

To me, I can do away with privacy on the Kindle because all I have are books and a few apps so if their apps need permission, I don't care much.

Apps on the phone are not really want to get into. I had fifty telemarketers on block on my old cell phone. Therefore, the phone is not really a good platform for users to release software because I wouldn't trust all but a few apps.

Apps that want to read my contacts are apps I wish to avoid.

I tried Need for Speed on the Kindle and it didn't impress me too much.

People can release all the software they want but the problem is security. I won't trust outsiders with my personal information so I would avoid Dropbox and anything connected to the internet.

Just the other day, I got an email from a forum where I closed my account that someone tried to guess my password five times. Boards want me to give my real name and email and that is dangerous because a hacker broke into one of the message boards I was on, they stole all the email addresses and then I got phishing emails and a lot of spam.

I'm also sick of in-app purchases in an attempt to nickel and dime me.

I think it should be a crime for software writers to make me opt out when in fact a computer is part of my home just as the wiring of my phone line is property of the home owner. They need to get permission because they are trespassing and harassing me and because I won't give my permission up, I won't use a tablet for more than reading on the internet.

This app won't update unless I give it permission to violate my privacy and this app won't update unless I let it violate my privacy.

Tablets just don't have the power of desktops and I don't want to be inconvenienced with attaching cables and sending files back and forth to and from tablets and the computer. I don't want to be inconvenienced at giving up my privacy.

So small devices are going nowhere with me until they clean up their act.

Last edited by Chuckt on 18-Mar-2015 at 07:56 PM.

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Deniil715 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 21:12:00
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4236
From: Sweden

My salary, as a System Developer, is close to that of umisef, especially if you include that what the company pays which includes pension, ensurance, etc.

We can't have people being paid to do Amiga software. That's not feasable today. Too few users and too high salaries/mortgage pays/rents/living costs etc.

And people expect more from software now than 15 years ago, taking 10-fold the manhours to implement!

People make software for Amiga for fun, as a hobby. Most software has been developed like that since the late 90's. Problem is that those who did that 15 years ago where students, possibly still living at home with lots of free time and a burning passion. I was one of them.

Times have change. Most of us grew up, got a family, demanding jobs etc. Therefore we don't have the 8 hours a day to spend on free-time programming like we used to. And also because of the fewer, although very devoted, users and demanding programming jobs, the motivation for spare-time programming is lowered.

Take a simple little tool like CodeAudio (formerly TheMPegEncGUI) as an example. I have spend an easy 1000 hours on that program. Now multiply that with a normal(?) hourly salary for a programmer: €30. That's €30000 just for CodeAudio, a program that doesn't even implement an mp3 encoder natively. It's just a GUI... Now put that into the perspective of a web browser or a word processor with the thousands of features they have. Just look at the exe file to get an impression of the amount of code they contain.

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Tuxedo 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 21:30:19
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2341
From: Perugia, ITALY

@Deniil715

Well...you are absolutely right but in that optic(AmigaOS users always much old and few free time) we have only 2 choiches:

1 - Let AmigaOS die since in within few years it will be really absolete in that perspective of no time.
2 - Expect for our job retirements and than have a community os 60/70 old mans that than have much time to spend on programmin like when their's guys...

No one of the 2 scenarios was nice to me...any idea on how to have a tirhd choice?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 21:34:48
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12796
From: Norway

@Deniil715

Quote:
That's €30000 just for CodeAudio


That's 15€ x 2000 users.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1195082866/from-bedrooms-to-billions-the-amiga-years?ref=nav_search

1419 customers donated £60748, (83764€).

But problem is to get 1419 users to donate, it has to be some thing that every one can use, and every one needs. but it also has to be realistic project.

Yes, it is not full time work unless you get 3 time or 4 times that within a year.

So project need to be doable with in 3 to 4 months etch.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Mar-2015 at 09:44 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Mar-2015 at 09:42 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Mar-2015 at 09:35 PM.

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Jose 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 22:53:36
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 992
From: Unknown

@Tuxedo

If we just learned coding and took a few of our free time coding a bit, much could be done. I've done that in around 2005/6 and after that stopped completely. And I had no former education in IT. The little tools I was developing never got finished (I'll finish them someday..). Now just the other day I was browsing some iPhone apps and found the exact same idea in an small app that's selling pretty well. I think I want to shoot myself...:)
I did enjoy learning C on the Amiga though, and its also a good mental exercise, no regrets there...

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number6 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 18-Mar-2015 22:59:20
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@umisef

Quote:
So unless you were planning on outsourcing to India (good luck finding Amiga-aware software engineers there


Well, it's prolly time for someone we know to announce the "3rd" time acquisition of Ruksun (ADI). (evil grin)

#6

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ne_one 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 5:31:47
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 905
From: Unknown

Before budgeting for any sort of development effort (monetary or otherwise), a little planning would be a thought.

It's coming down to the choice of preserving the "old and unique" legacy systems or creating a modern replacement.

It's time to let the past go and move forward.

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Manu 
Re: I don't get this no more......
Posted on 19-Mar-2015 6:10:29
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:


1419 customers donated £60748, (83764€).

But problem is to get 1419 users to donate, it has to be some thing that every one can use, and every one needs. but it also has to be realistic project.


Especially when you take into the account that at least 1200 of those donors aren't probably even aware of a current NG amiga community and simply doesn't even hang around in AmiNG circles.

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