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BigD 
Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 10:41:38
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4114
From: UK

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/12/16296460/apple-self-love-iphonex-iphone8-event

They may as well have shrines to Steve Jobs in every 'Town Square' with burning incense and everyone having to go barefoot

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WolfpackN64 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 13:30:51
#2 ]
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Joined: 8-Oct-2016
Posts: 275
From: Unknown

@BigD

Capitalism is the worst religion.

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simplex 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 13:40:55
#3 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 598
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@BigD

Quote:
Apple Stores will transform from simply commercial spaces to locations where the company will develop “communities”: host concerts, lead workshops, offer up meeting rooms, and teach everything from coding to photography to music-making. Apple frames these disciplines as modern equivalents to the Medieval trivium — an essential educational resource that makes a person a person.

Well. Let's all gather and make the sign of the A, while we're at it.***

I'm not sure Apple ever found its way, except for a few brief shining moments in the 80's and then again in the early 00's, but nonsense like this explains why its desktop OS is such an increasing disaster of usability that by now I find KDE on Linux more consistent and easier to deal with.

As just one example: Cmd+Shift+S used to mean "Save as..." which makes total and complete sense. That's what it meant for decades. But, no, a couple of decades ago some wag at Apple decided it should mean "Duplicate." So now you get, I kid you not, two copies of (say) a PDF file in memory, when before you had just 1, attached to a command key sequence that doesn't correspond to the action in any way, shape, or form.

Then there was the debacle of switching from gcc to clang, where Apple first provided the wrong headers, then bundled obsolete versions of clang and basically told all developers using OpenMP to go stuff themselves for a few years.

Apple's idea of saving energy means your laptop shuts off ("hibernates") when it's closed and plugged into an electric outlet for roughly 3 hours, leading to a 30- to 45-second startup when you open it again, but consumes its battery into oblivion when it isn't.

I'm typing this from a MacBook Pro, and desperately wish I weren't, but legacy is what it is.

***Reference to Brave New World, a novel so ahead of its time that its own author rebuked its implications.

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simplex 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 13:43:23
#4 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 598
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@simplex

Quote:
But, no, a couple of decades ago some wag at Apple decided it should mean "Duplicate."


Eep. I mean, "a couple of years ago," not "a couple of decades ago." For some reason I can't re-edit the original post, so I have to issue this corrigendum. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa and all that.

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Hypex 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 15:53:18
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8692
From: Greensborough, Australia

@simplex

I was recently conplaining to my self that there is no specific full screen gadget on OS4. Some times that zoom gadget works but other times like when a browser is dragged off screen there is no window reset to relocate it neatly for you at full screen.

But I was on my 10.5 Mac with the same problem. Wanted a window to go full screen. Sure it worked like Amiga though different colours balls make no difference to what each widget means. I presed them all and just couldn't get it to work. OSX turned out to be as messy as they come.

So I Google it. I find there is no system way to do it and you need to install other software. And it's still not fixed now days. I also read on forums Mac users being told that maximising a window to full screen is a Windows thing and they need use the Mac interface as a Mac. What sort of stupid logic is that? I'm sure the poor guy wanted to max the window to full screen simply because he wanted to max the windows to full screen! Just as I did. People and their stupid assmuptions.

I was always confused by this Command key. I never understood why they just didn't call it the Apple key. I read Apple guides and they talk about this Command key. So I go looking for a Command key and don't see anything called Command or Cmd for that matter. Then I figure they are talking about the key with an Apple on it. Stupid Apple who can't even use WYSIWYG when describing their Apple keys!

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dommer416 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 16:20:43
#6 ]
Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2017
Posts: 50
From: Western Earth

@BigD

>Sigh

Well I wasn't around in the 80's, born in 94, so I don't have much nostalgia for that sort of stuff (just replaced my only iphone ever with a LG V20 in fact), but I can throw some speculation. The apple I remember had cool things that were computers in the space of my monitor at home and had a giant stamped POWERPC inside and had nanosaur on them. Thats probably where my interest died though, even though I love my little ibook G4 to pieces.

I find it funny. The real user base that apple had left in 2004/5/6 because they didn't like what was happening to this company they had supported for so long. For some it was the market appeal to basic consumers, for others it was going from a PowerPC G4, a chip that wouldn't be matched in processing until the Core 2 Duo 8600 chips and up, and were replaced with dual core pentium 3's. That left the squealing children that got an ipod for their stocking stuffers and a macbook or two for their presents, which in all notes are literally netbook hardware in a bigger case.

Now, we have "Professional Tablets". I thought those were the tablets from wacom that doubled as a display, not the stupid ipads that have 200mhz of clock boost and half an inch more of screen. Oh boy! 2000 dollar tablets! 1000 dollar phones!

All the pricing apple has today is a reflection of market inflation via prices from the 90's and 80's. I don't really think a laptop with an RX460 is worth 4500 dollars when my thinkpad can outperform it and that thing is 4 or 5 years old. And not to be a fanboy, but once Jobs got cancer and was dying he was just panic-setting the company to not f--k up, I think. If you look at the processor fabs that got the new licenses, IBM moved on to POWER and Freescale started doing PPC with the last IBM chips going in milling machines and the WII. If jobs died in 2007 and the company was still switching over to freescale for chips that would have been a damn mess and they would have lost money. Which sucks. Only now all they are is a "lifestyle" company.

The problems with apple today stem only from marketing. I like that they have a normal sense of security, unlike google. Which seems hyper backwards. Especially since the trade off is more security less useability, and less security more useability (APPLE GOOGLE). I think we're hearing the final death-nell of apple. I'll give them about 6 years. If, in 6 years, they don't become purely a mobile company, or purely a desktop company, they'll be dead. The line up by then will be the iphone as we know it now, the iPhone X line (and it will be a new line of iphone just as the macbook, air, and pro), the Macbook will likely be the Macbook Nothing and the Macbook air will replace the lowest level one (there will also be like 2 spec levels most likely and the only difference will be the SSD), and then the iMac and iMac Pro. No idea what the iPads will do. Probably the same as the Macbooks though. That plan is really the only way that they will work and not die.

They're becoming too segmented now. The old intentions are there and make sense, but the company is being led by marketers and designers, not by engineers (any more, it was led that way until people started jumping out in like..... 04 was it?). Either they'll die, or they will have a pro tier and a pleb tier, and be mostly mobile driven. This is going to be a mess.

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amigang 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 18:17:51
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1358
From: Cheshire, England

I think you have to give the company some credit, even though most of there product weren't always original ideas, they just had a way to perfectly market them to the masses, they still managing to market device that in raw parts should cost at most $500 but instead want $1000 and people will still buy it, they turned gadgets and the computer market from being regarded as geeky tech and a geeky place to be, to a cool and hip place and now even a religion. Mark my word about 80% of the people who upgrade there phones/macbooks/ipads etc dont really need its power they just want the latest tech/design to say cool.

I think Apple has finally got some real competition in Samsung and Google, Microsoft is no where and if it wasn't for it legacy stuff and PC gaming market I think Microsoft would be done for.

I think the computer market is really in need of new competition, I find it odd that no company is really pushing it forward, you see Google Chrome making some moves, but I dont feel that quite the right way to go, they need to offer more full desktop apps something like Adobe suit and full PC gaming not just the tablet gaming. I did have hopes with SteamOS but it seem that not really been pushed enough.

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dommer416 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 13-Sep-2017 18:43:24
#8 ]
Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2017
Posts: 50
From: Western Earth

@amigang

You watch. I give it 2 or 3 years before arm based linux machines start stomping the competition down. We're about to see the release of a lot of micro's that are anywhere between 80 and 260USD that are battery efficient and more useable than a chromebook. Its going to be VERY interesting soon. Within a year the market is going to get kicked around.

Even now, we have the Talos 2 coming out soon offering POWER8 single and dual socket holy shit machines to the mass market.

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ne_one 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 1:49:09
#9 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 735
From: Unknown

@dommer416

Quote:

I give it 2 or 3 years before arm based linux machines start stomping the competition down...

Even now, we have the Talos 2 coming out soon offering POWER8 single and dual socket holy shit machines to the mass market.


You're clearly missing the point.

People obviously know that you can buy a very capable PC for significantly less than the price of a Mac.

It's the same reason why some people spend significantly more than a Mac to buy an Amiga.

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klx300r 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 2:04:29
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3180
From: Toronto, Canada

@BigD

sorry I didn't drink the cool aid back in 1982 so no idea or care about Apple products since

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QuikSanz 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 2:10:40
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1070
From: Surf City - Huntington Beach, Ca.

@klx300r,

The Apple IIE was kind of OK but that's it.

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daveyw 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 3:39:23
#12 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Mar-2011
Posts: 237
From: New Zealand

@BigD

I'm not a huge fan of Apple products, and never have been, but it really irks me that people forget just how big an impact Apple had in computing in the late 70s.

Computers transformed from being (a) strange, alien machines only accesible to big corporations or academic institutions or (b) arcane hobbyist projects to being everyday appliances like the TV or fridge, and it was the Apple II that made that happen.

I'm never doing to swoon over Jobs (I'll always remember him as the guy who desperately wanted to be Bill Gates), but that's his real legacy - well, him and Wozniak. Not the ***** iPhone.

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K-L 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 5:02:57
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1132
From: Oullins, France

@Thread

I've read some articles on The Verge and all I can see are articles saying Apple is evil...

Are they jealous or is hating Apple is one of the reasons to be be hired by this site?

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BigD 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 7:23:58
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4114
From: UK

@K-L

When you are as big as Apple and worship a unfriendly egotistical Steve Jobs the company isn't going to be nice is it? Foxconn working conditions, Apple Stoes (I mean 'Town Square') treating customers like rubbish, giving pro users no upgrade path as the profit margins aren't as great, refusing to support gamers by offering no new OpenGL version in over 8 years and thinking they can treat Macs like an extension of their iOS ecosystem! They may not be evil (though you could describe Jobs as unpleasant) but they are not exactly a force for good in the world! 'Think different' my arse, it's 'Think Greed' that should be their tagline!

Last edited by BigD on 14-Sep-2017 at 07:25 AM.

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Trewq 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 7:25:15
#15 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2012
Posts: 205
From: Unknown

@simplex

Quote:
As just one example: Cmd+Shift+S used to mean "Save as..." which makes total and complete sense. That's what it meant for decades. But, no, a couple of decades ago some wag at Apple decided it should mean "Duplicate." So now you get, I kid you not, two copies of (say) a PDF file in memory, when before you had just 1, attached to a command key sequence that doesn't correspond to the action in any way, shape, or form.



My personal favorite is "Cmd + backspace" to delete a file, while the offical Apple keyboards have a key labeled Delete.

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dommer416 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 7:38:31
#16 ]
Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2017
Posts: 50
From: Western Earth

@Trewq

I'm sorry what.

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Daedalus 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 7:58:11
#17 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1594
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Trewq

Quote:

Trewq wrote:
@simplex

Quote:
As just one example: Cmd+Shift+S used to mean "Save as..." which makes total and complete sense. That's what it meant for decades. But, no, a couple of decades ago some wag at Apple decided it should mean "Duplicate." So now you get, I kid you not, two copies of (say) a PDF file in memory, when before you had just 1, attached to a command key sequence that doesn't correspond to the action in any way, shape, or form.



My personal favorite is "Cmd + backspace" to delete a file, while the offical Apple keyboards have a key labeled Delete.


Ummm... Not on their laptops they don't, and that's possibly their most popular keyboard format. Besides, having a qualifier helps prevent nasty accidents.

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Trewq 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 8:24:13
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2012
Posts: 205
From: Unknown

@Daedalus

You're right, the latest keyboards don't have a delete key anymore, not even the magic keyboard.

My Apple keyboard is from 2007.



Qualifier is nice but I think Cmd + Delete or Cmd + D would be a lot more straightforward hotkeys than Cmd + Backspace.

This really stumped me coming from Windows, which I think is Apple's target audience, disgrunted Windows users.


User friendly and straightforward interface is one of the Mac's biggest selling point, right?

Why make hotkeys so completely alien compared to other operating systems ?
Unless it is a leftover from the 68k MacOS days, it seems pretentious to me and purely done to be different.

"Every turn Windows makes we need to take the opposite turn"

Last edited by Trewq on 14-Sep-2017 at 08:24 AM.

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Daedalus 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 9:10:49
#19 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1594
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Trewq

Quote:

Trewq wrote:
You're right, the latest keyboards don't have a delete key anymore, not even the magic keyboard.

My Apple keyboard is from 2007.

I don't remember a time when Apple ever had a Delete key on their laptops. It certainly isn't present on my iBook from 2004.

Quote:
Qualifier is nice but I think Cmd + Delete or Cmd + D would be a lot more straightforward hotkeys than Cmd + Backspace.

And funny, when I got OS4, one of the first things I did was to change the shortcut for deleting files from Amiga-D to Amiga-Delete, but that's just my personal preference.

Quote:
This really stumped me coming from Windows, which I think is Apple's target audience, disgrunted Windows users.

Why would anyone want to use Windows shortcuts? Because Alt+F4 is more intuitive than Command+Q (for Quit)? Apple shortcuts are far more intuitive than windows' ones, which have their roots still firmly stuck in MS-DOS days. Ctrl for a shortcut qualifier for most things, because when the shortcuts were made up, they didn't even have a dedicated Windows key on the keyboard. Ctrl+C for copy, but not when you're using the command prompt, where it can cause all sorts of problems. Use right-click instead. Ctrl+F for Find, except in Outlook, where Microsoft themselves assigned it to the Forward function instead? Yeah, makes loads of sense to cling onto all that '80s baggage.

Shortcuts are one of the main areas that makes me not like working with Windows. Yes, I'm used to them having used Windows since 3.1, but that doesn't mean I like them or that they make any sense. And I really don't think learning new shortcuts should be that big a deal when changes between operating systems, when the rest of the changes are far more comprehensive.

Quote:
User friendly and straightforward interface is one of the Mac's biggest selling point, right?

Indeed. Making the shortcuts to your personal taste does not equal making them user-friendly. You are not all users.

Quote:
Why make hotkeys so completely alien compared to other operating systems ?
Unless it is a leftover from the 68k MacOS days,

Oh, the irony in that, coming from someone who prefers shortcuts that predate 68k Macs.

Quote:
it seems pretentious to me and purely done to be different.

Or, done in the name of consistency and simplicity, not because of some archaic shortcuts on what just happens to be the most popular platform. Just because more people eat at McDonald's than any other restaurant, doesn't make it the best food in the world.

Quote:
"Every turn Windows makes we need to take the opposite turn"

And so many decisions made within windows development are bad and not worthy of copying. If they wanted to be like Windows, copying all their rubbish and inconsistencies, they could. It's what most Linux distros do after all, and that's working out great for them.

Look, it's clear you don't like them, and that's ok. Nobody is forcing you to buy one. That's the beauty of the free market. But you're confusing your preferences with useability. I have to take from it that you don't like Amiga Workbench shortcuts too then? As, by and large, they're very similar to Mac shortcuts, and probably for the same reasons: being able to choose them without being tied to pre-1985 conventions.

Last edited by Daedalus on 14-Sep-2017 at 09:11 AM.

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clebin 
Re: Apple scale new heights of Pretentious Guff!
Posted on 14-Sep-2017 9:47:13
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Cardiff

@Trewq

Quote:
User friendly and straightforward interface is one of the Mac's biggest selling point, right?


Command+Backspace is second nature to me. You're just used to something else. Windows is not a paragon of usability - surely an Amiga owner knows that.

Quote:
Why make hotkeys so completely alien compared to other operating systems ?


MacOS predates Windows and has had a continuous user-base who expect things to work in a certain way. Delete as a shortcut would be completely inconsistent with the rest of the OS. Traditional Mac users really care about consistency. When OS X was previewed, there was a huge outcry which forced Apple to backtrack on several of the changes, introduce a spatial mode in the Finder and so on. These are the Photoshop and Quark users who kept Apple afloat through some - you don't upset those people...

Last edited by clebin on 14-Sep-2017 at 09:47 AM.

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