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      /  Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
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densho 
Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 10-Mar-2018 9:17:52
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2003
Posts: 231
From: Finland

Got myself a Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard and trying to connect it to X5000.

Akai claims that the keyboard is class compliant and doesn't require any drivers. So, on the midi side it should work with usb midi driver.

Usb however is not finding the device correctly. After pluggin the keyboard it first tries to locate the device and shortly after tells that the attachment failed. It doesn't show any device manufacturer info on the window. Below is usb log.

I: [10:48:16] hub.usbfd | HUB | Device found on port 2 of hub "USB 2.0 Hub".
I: [10:48:16] hub.usbfd | Hub port | Device at port 2 of hub "USB 2.0 Hub" is full-speed.
I: [10:48:16] USB stack | New Fkt | Fkt 0x554fcde0 at level 3
I: [10:48:16] hub.usbfd | HUB | Device on hub port 2 successfully added.
I: [10:48:16] USB Fkt Init | Init Fkt | Fkt 0x554fcde0 is {Vendor: 0x2011, Product: 0x0715, Class: 00.00}
E: [10:48:26] USB Fkt Init | Init Fkt | Error -35 reading Device Status
E: [10:48:26] USB Fkt Init | Init Fkt | Init failed.
E: [10:48:26] USB Fkt Init | SysFkt_Detach | Not called from USB Task - please notify graff@amigausb.dk
E: [10:48:29] USB Fkt Init | Init Fkt Setup | Fkt attachment failed

So, it looks like the device is not compatible with our usb stack?

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lylehaze 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 10-Mar-2018 11:40:22
#2 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1142
From: North Florida - Big Bend area.

@densho

Please try connecting directly to the X5000, without any hubs in between.

Let me know if it makes a difference.

Thanks,
LyleHaze

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densho 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 10-Mar-2018 12:05:15
#3 ]
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Joined: 10-May-2003
Posts: 231
From: Finland

@lylehaze

Forgot to mention it's connected directly to the back of x5000. Different ports (or hubs between) make no difference.

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lylehaze 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 10-Mar-2018 13:51:24
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1142
From: North Florida - Big Bend area.

@densho

Take a look into sys:Utilities/USBInspector while your device is connected.

If your device shows up as class Audio, Subclass 3
then it is identifying itself as a USB Midi device. These are the criteria used by the USB Midi driver.

If it's not showing those Class and Subclass, that would look for another driver.

There is some stuff that could be happening before it gets that far. Obviously my knowledge is limited to camdmidi.usbfd, and not the usb stack itself.

LyleHaze

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densho 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 11-Mar-2018 17:42:49
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2003
Posts: 231
From: Finland

@lylehaze

Nope, it isn't recognized at all :-/

I guess I'll return it to the shop and buy Arturia Keystep instead - it has nice oldschool midi, usb and cv/gate connections built-in.

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graff 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 12-Mar-2018 9:13:53
#6 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Jul-2005
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@densho
What the USB log says is that the device failed to respond with an initial Device Status check. Since that fails, the USB stack aborts the device initialization altogether and detaches the device again.
So the device never reaches an initialization stage at which a driver is attempted to be run against it.

Regards,
Thomas

Last edited by graff on 12-Mar-2018 at 09:14 AM.

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densho 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 12-Mar-2018 22:07:48
#7 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2003
Posts: 231
From: Finland

@graff

Thanks for the detailed explanation - I guess you're the graff mentioned in the log :)

So, the problem is caused by Akai firmware which isn't communicating correcly or is this something the usb stack can't handle (yet)?

Last edited by densho on 13-Mar-2018 at 01:03 PM.

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graff 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 13-Mar-2018 8:32:36
#8 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Jul-2005
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@densho
Yup, I am - although it's been some years since I started lacking time and USB stack development was pickup by other OS4 team members.

It's hard to tell if it is a device or software problem without doing some low-level debugging with the device at hand. Some USB devices are not really USB spec compliant, and specific device quirks are sometimes required - but it may also be a missing corner case in the USB stack. That is still possible :)

Regards, Thomas

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Hypex 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 13-Mar-2018 15:54:46
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11181
From: Greensborough, Australia

@densho

According to this it is USB powered:
http://www.akaipro.com/products/keyboard-controllers/mpk-mini

This red flags for me. Can you plug it into a power supply?

It's possible it is drawing too much power from the port. You may need a powered USB hub to get it working.

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KimmoK 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 14-Mar-2018 7:36:10
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

And I have this:
http://www.akaipro.com/products/search/lpk-25

It did not work out of the box on windows machine either.
Not yet tried with powered USB HUBs, etc.

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densho 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 15-Mar-2018 8:19:43
#11 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2003
Posts: 231
From: Finland

@Hypex

X5000 usb port should provide enough juice for the keyboard. That kind of problems might happen with low power usb devices like iPads and such...

@KimmoK

I was originally going to buy exactly that one but noticed Akai has a little bit more advanced version available, the MPK mini mk2 :)

Did you try it on OS4.1FE, same symptoms?

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Robert 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 15-Mar-2018 10:38:56
#12 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 879
From: Glasgow

@densho:

Bit OT but just wondering what software you were planning to use the keyboard with?

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KimmoK 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 15-Mar-2018 14:05:18
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@densho

"Did you try it on OS4.1FE, same symptoms?"

Not yet. My SAM440ep has some more severe "symptoms"...
(SAM's "power good" detection has been failing, so it's not in robust useful condition to use for anything at the moment)

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Hypex 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 15-Mar-2018 16:29:56
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11181
From: Greensborough, Australia

@densho

Quote:
X5000 usb port should provide enough juice for the keyboard. That kind of problems might happen with low power usb devices like iPads and such...


It should but you never know if it can. AFAIK the X5000 has USB2, if I'm not mistaken, so doesn't have the power of a USB3 port. Though in the power case there can be power failed messages.

Both my A1-XE and PowerBook G4 fail to mount my external HDD without assistance. But it plugs right into a old PC laptop.

My X1000 has USB2 and my case has a USB3 port but I think that's a false economy I have there. Could also test a "poor mans powered USB hub". A dual USB lead taking power from two ports.

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lylehaze 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 16-Mar-2018 0:28:05
#15 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1142
From: North Florida - Big Bend area.

Power management is probably the least effective/most abused part of the USB specification.

Originally, attached devices could consume up to 500 ma at 5 volts. But the common misunderstanding is that the USB host does NOT control power consumption. It only manages it.
When a device "attaches", it must draw only a very minimal current as it is enumerated. part of that process is to tell the host how much power it wants to use (up to 500 ma). The host then does the math on the power budget, and replies to the device with a "yes" or "no". It is then the responsibility of the DEVICE to stop drawing power if the request was denied.

Simplified: The host cannot cut off your power, it can only tell the device to cut itself off.

Sounds simple, but it has been abused from the beginning. Many "dumb" devices pull up to 500 ma or more without any enumeration, drawing power without it being tracked by the host. Lots of small drives came with a twin-plug pigtail, supposedly to double the amount of power they could draw. But how does this single device "ask" for more than 500 ma?? Not supportwed as far as I can tell in the original USB specification.

Newer specs raised the upper current limit (more than once, I believe).

Still, every time I see a "USB powered coffee mug warming plate" I wince.

Some devices respond with bad information during enumeration. I have devices here that failed to enumerate until workarounds were made to accomodate these bad devices. When I contacted the manufacturer with detailed information, I was told that "it works with Windows, so it must be right." Ouch.

In most computers, the USB 5 volts is wired directly to the power supply. The only limitations are the available power (seldom an issue in an NG Amiga) and the gauge of the wire. HOWEVER.. too many loads on too thin a wire can cause noise on the power rail at the load end of the wire.

If you suspect USB power issues, start by unplugging the coffee mug warmers and USB plasma balls and "dancing Groot" dolls first. :)

The long, thin wires in a typical USB cable are more likely to cause problems than the power supply in the computer.

As usual, just my opinion, and you are welcome to disagree.

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graff 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 16-Mar-2018 8:46:50
#16 ]
Member
Joined: 4-Jul-2005
Posts: 54
From: Unknown

@lylehaze
Hi Lyle

While I very much agrees to all the USB power budgetting you mention, USB hubs actually may have the means of turning off power to one or more USB ports if too much current is drawn. It can even be placed under Hub driver control if my memory is not failing me completely

But, true, a lot of USB devices neglect to report their true power needs, and thus make it impossible for the USB stack to evaluate and manage the power budget correctly.

Kind regards,
Thomas

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densho 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 16-Mar-2018 10:45:56
#17 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2003
Posts: 231
From: Finland

@Robert

I used Octamed Soundstudio in the classic Amiga days and have been in kind of waiting state for new release since the days I moved to NG setup. It makes about 13 years now :) In the meantime I did look for alternatives like Inutilis Horny but kind of lost the interest for music making for years.. learning new way of making music (tracker vs sequencer) can be sometimes flustrating..

HD-Rec seems to offer everything I need. Simultaneous sample and midi playback with softsynth and effects. Works quite nicely on X5000.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPocY3UlK5A

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densho 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 16-Mar-2018 10:57:35
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2003
Posts: 231
From: Finland

@lylehaze & graff

Thanks, always good to read this kind of technical stuff, lots of new info to me :)


I returned the Akai keyboard to the shop and ordered the Arturia Keystep.

Interesting to see if usb midi works on that. If not, I can always fallback to oldschool MIDI connection on that (I probably do that anyways ;)

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Tomppeli 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 16-Mar-2018 11:51:35
#19 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1652
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

@densho

M-Audio Keystation Mini 32 works fine with my X1000 (via USB). I'm interested to hear if Arturia's keyboard works for you. I've been looking for a mini keyboard with pad buttons.

I haven't liked trackers because you have to edit those bits to get the notes to play correctly (I mean to set velocity and length and so on). If sequencers are not spoiled with too many features and having cluttered/grouded user interfaces they are simple to use, depending on the type of the user interface.

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Hypex 
Re: Akai MPK mini mk2 usb midi keyboard connection problems
Posted on 16-Mar-2018 13:03:47
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11181
From: Greensborough, Australia

@lylehaze

Thank you Lyle for that thorough information on USB power. I wasn't aware of all this and it brings a lot of things to light.

I'm not at all surprised by the "Works with Windows" (TM) attitude and this goes around a lot. Tends to turn up in software. This can be software in firmware or even open source software. And of course in lots of hardware devices.

I am amused by the redundant USB devices you mention. That would use the USB port as little more than a poor mans PSU. Since pretty useless devices don't surprise me any more and I am left with amusement.

Opinion or not, I quite agree about thickness of wire. My first USB stick, a RunDisk measurung in at 512MB has no metal shield, and I think this is a major over sight, as it has caused me no end of trouble. I can't plug it directly into a USB port on my XE as it is not recognised. In fact it tends to bend up which looks strange.

I have a short USB extension cable. Doesn't work with that either. I have a longer one with thicker cable. Works fine. I have an even shorter dual cable it works fine with as well. A slightly longer one than the last is plugged into the back of my XE and it works in that. So for me more thickness does play a part. And more so when you have a dodgy USB device to test with.

OTOH I have a cheap SanDisk also without a shield but that works fine straight in a port. Although, it can be retracted, and that does cause trouble as pushing on the plug with enough pressure does push it back in.

Last edited by Hypex on 16-Mar-2018 at 01:05 PM.

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