@Nickman

Quote:

I think i have read lots of times that Hyperion don't like the consept of pre-orders and that they would never sell an unfinished product.

The only reason I'm suggesting 'pre-orders' is to eliminate 'everyone' saying they in fact, would pay for it when they have no intention, or means, to.

I completely understand Hyperions stance on it as well, but it's possible they underestimate the number of people willing to 'pay now' for it. I wouldn't suggest collecting actual $, but making sure a final list has people with $ in hand and ready to pay for it. That _might_ change Hyperions opinion, or alternately, might make them see there are more people then they thought wanting AOS4 for classic/PPC systems, which might open up the possibility of sooner rather than later.

Note there's a whole lot of 'mights' involved there..no one can speak for Hyperion other than themselves...but this would likely be the most persuasive way of saying 'please' possible

RE: The 1200...wanna trade for an A500 with 2.0?

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

Quote:

wegster wrote: @Nickman The only reason I'm suggesting 'pre-orders' is to eliminate 'everyone' saying they in fact, would pay for it when they have no intention, or means, to. I completely understand Hyperions stance on it as well, but it's possible they underestimate the number of people willing to 'pay now' for it. I wouldn't suggest collecting actual $, but making sure a final list has people with $ in hand and ready to pay for it. That _might_ change Hyperions opinion, or alternately, might make them see there are more people then they thought wanting AOS4 for classic/PPC systems, which might open up the possibility of sooner rather than later.

That is true. But what if no one did pre-order it
then we would surely lover the chanses of getting os4 for the classics ;)

Quote:

Note there's a whole lot of 'mights' involved there..no one can speak for Hyperion other than themselves...but this would likely be the most persuasive way of saying 'please' possible RE: The 1200...wanna trade for an A500 with 2.0?

Heh. i guess in the end money talkes doesn't it :D

About the trade... i'm acting like i didn't see that comment.
//Niclas

@Nickman

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Nickman wrote: Hi samface :) I don't know how many working BlizzPPC/CSPPC cards there are left out there. Atleast as many as the A1. Or am i totaly of the chart now? Now don't say how many are still being used. Cause it's the wrong question :) The right question is how many would come back to use with AmigaOS4. Add to that the ones still being used.

How many "came back" when early versions of MorphOS was available for free to PPC equipped classic Amiga computers?

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So basicly your saying OS4 on classics is hyperion throwing away developer time ?

No. I'm saying that spending time and resources on developing AmigaOS4 for PPC equipped classic Amiga computers is not very likely to give as much return on the investment as developing AmigaOS4 for the AmigaOne.

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For me OS4 would bring: No context switches.

Reduced context switches, perhaps, but never entirely gone. For as long has the 68k processor is there, regardless if you use it or not, there will be context switches.

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No need to patch the hell out of my 68k to get performance (i have a crappy 040/25)

We're talking about a pre-release of the AmigaOS4 here, remember? JIT emulation will not be available until then final release of AmigaOS4, maybe you're thinking of faster memory handling and/or 2d graphics? Again, that's the only things that I think will be a bit faster in comparison to AmigaOS3.x with WarpUP. I really don't see what else there would be to speed up the hardware bottlenecked classic Amiga computers.

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No 68k =)

Interpretive emulation (ie no JIT) on a PPC 603/604 clocked to 180-240 MHz is not much faster, maybe even slower, than a 68040@25MHz.

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AmigaInput

Which would make you able to do what, exactly? Keep in mind, we're talking about a pre-release for classic Amiga computers with severe limitations when it comes to drivers for custom hardware solutions from third party hardware suppliers.

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USB support.

Yay! Now all you need is to find a classic Amiga with USB ports. Oh, that would require some third party hardware addon that is not very likely to be supported in a pre-release of AmigaOS4? Bugger...

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If i read your post i get the inpresion that you think OS4 i just cosmetics. Classics would get the same thing as A1. Just slower. If you think slow is bad. try using Birdie/MUI/Patch A,B and C with a 68040 25 Mhz.

I own exactly such hardware equipment and software configuration today and know exactly what you mean. However, I think you are over-estimating what AmigaOS4 will be able to do for you in the form of a pre-release. An OS cannot remove hardware bottlenecks, especially not in the form of a pre-release that wouldn't be much optimized for the hardware in question to begin with.

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Atelast i thought that Ryu video (i think it was he who did it?) look realy great for being only on a 603e/240 Mhz PPC. Alot nicer then my system is now.

Sure, PPC native 2D drivers will give you a speed improvement of 2D graphics, no doubt about that.

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Quote: Anyone willing to give me a list of things you would be able to do with your PPC equipped classic Amiga if you had AmigaOS4 on it that you can't do with AmigaOS3.x? I would be able to use a much more modern system. Will be able to use all new software that comes out for OS4.

More "modern" doesn't tell me much about what exactly it will be able to do for you that you cannot do with previous versions of AmigaOS4, now does it? As for new software, I would prefer if you tell me about what exactly it is you would be able to do with the software available for AmigaOS4 that you cannot do with the software available for AmigaOS3.9.

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But as an A1 owner i can understand/guess that classic support is not a priority.

You have an A1? Lucky sod.

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Yeah sure there is cross-compilation. But what happens after you compiled your program ? you send it of to a beta tester with an A1 ? I think this sort of development will take time. All this is from the point of view i had that. A: you don't have an A1. B: You have an classic with a PPC card, but don't feel like buying an A1 right now.

Again, I don't think this is much of an issue since the unavailability of AmigaOS4 for PPC quipped classic Amiga owners is not permanent. Either wait until AmigaOS4 is available for PPC equipped classic Amiga computers, send your AmigaOS4 program to someone who owns an AmigaOne, or get an AmigaOne yourself. One should keep in mind that AmigaOS4 was not even planned to be made available for AmigaOne owners until it was finished to begin with, mostly because supporting development of applications for an OS that is not yet finished costs time and money which slows down the development of the OS. They made a trade-off for the sake of having atleast some appliactions available for the OS at the time of when it will finally be released to end-users and because they felt it was neccessary since AmigaOne owners didn't have any version of AmigaOS available despite having pre-paid for the AmigaOS4 when they purchased their AmigaOne.

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As for putting my money where my mouth is i have no other answer then that if i could buy OS4 for my BlizzPPC today i would pay atleast 1200-1500 sek. without blinking. Would i pay 8000-9000 for an A1 with OS4. No i would not.. If i would i would have one now :)

First of all, it's not very common for any software developer to sell unfinished pre-releases of their products at all. They made an exception, targetted at developers rather than end-users for the reasons I've explained.

Secondly, there wouldn't have been an AmigaOS4 if there was no AmigaOne. Writing a modern and more resource hungry OS for the severly limited performance of the classic Amiga computers wouldn't have been feasable. Not only because of it's poor performance in comparison to modern standards, but also because we're talking about an OS that would depend on custom hardware addons made by a company that went bancrupt 8 years ago. The AmigaOne project doesn't just give AmigaOS4 a market and a somewhat up to today's modern standards hardware to be bundled with, it also gives Hyperion an actual hardware vendor to turn to for support and documentation on the various parts and aspects of the hardware architecture. The time and resources you have to spend on development is reduced by quite a margin if you got the information and support you need.

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Will i keep my A1200 another year/years if no OS4 is out. Maybe.. maybe not. Will the amiga comunity miss/care about the loss of one more amiga lover. Maybe.. maybe not.

Your "love" for the Amiga does not put food on the table for those developing the new generation of Amiga hardware and software. Of course they would like to do whatever they can to support all members of the Amiga community, but one has to realize the limits to what they can do with their limited resources.

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Maybe it's time to leave the dream alone. I don't know. Only the future will tell. //Niclas

Keeping your dreams and hopes alive is of course a good thing, but a sense of realism never hurt anyone either.

Last edited by samface on 26-Jan-2005 at 10:25 AM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @Nickman You're right, there should be just as much or maybe even more hardware configurations for the AmigaOne than the classic Amiga hardware that doesn't work in AmigaOS4.

So a version, supporting just the basic things like UW-SCSI support, Mediator support + support for PCI USB 2.0 Highspeed, support for graphic cards (CV, BV and one or two PCI-solutions) and support for one or two PCI sound cards, would be sufficiant, if I didn't forget something important...
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samface wrote: However, that doesn't change the fact that there is quite alot bigger market for the AmigaOne than there is for classic Amiga hardware.

How can it be that one or two thousand sold A1 units are "alot bigger market" compared to the number of sold CSPPC's and BPPC's?
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samface wrote: Spending time and resources on getting AmigaOS4 to work on classic Amiga hardware ...

Accordig H.J. Frieden *THAT* work has already been done...
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samface wrote: ... will simply not give as much of a return on the investment as the time and money spent on getting things to work on the AmigaOne.

Well, for me (and I know some others see it this way as well) the situation is that we *FIRST* want to test the OS and it's apps *ON OUR GIVEN HARDWARE*.

If the test runs well, we will most likely make up our mind and buy the new HW&OS4 as well.

If the test runs bad, we will have to wait and see if things improve.

If there is no OS4 for classic PPC Amigas at all, we're unable to test it and so will never reach the point where we could make up our mind and buy A1/OS4.

According the information I have the number of sold classic PPC accelerator boards
exceeds the number of sold A1's by far.

So the *EXISTING* market (not the potential one) should actually be even bigger for CSPPC/BPPC than it is for A1!
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samface wrote: For this reason, it makes alot more sense to focus on getting AmigaOS4 to function properly on the AmigaOne before taking on such task as getting it to work on the classic Amiga hardware.

As stated above:

Accordig H.J. Frieden *THAT* work actually has been done already...
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samface wrote: Furthermore, the performance of classic Amiga hardware doesn't come close to the AmigaOne and running AmigaOS4 on it simply doesn't do the OS justice.

No one half-way sane would expect the perfpormance of classic Amiga hardware come somehow close to the one of the A1 and at least *I* am *NOT* part of that dubious circle that appearently just runs the OS for its own sake.

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samface wrote: The benefits of running AmigaOS4 on classic Amiga hardware vs AmigaOS3.9 are few; it'll speed up memory handling and graphics by not so impressively large margins, you'll get a bit more modern look of the GUI, and that's about it.

As I stated above:

*I* am *NOT* part of that dubious circle that appearently just runs the OS for its own sake.

Already the access to the OS4 "killer" apps would mean a huge benefit (AE, AmigaWriter, Mozilla, OpenOffice...)
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samface wrote: Anyone willing to give me a list of things you would be able to do with your PPC equipped classic Amiga if you had AmigaOS4 on it that you can't do with AmigaOS3.x? I'm quite sure it won't be very long, atleast not in comparison with the list of things that AmigaOne users are able to thanks to the fact that they now atleast have an AmigaOS to run on their hardware.

I'm not sure if I really got your point here.
As stated above I would have access to all he OS4 applications, once I have OS4 running on my CSPPC.

And once I actually have it, I would expect to be able to run all the applications you can run on your A1/OS4 system - just a little bit slower.

Before I bother to move on to the next stage of Amiga evolution, I certainly want to "enjoy" the experience of the *FULL* performance of my CSPPC *FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME* for a while.
I mean - I payed a lot of money for it and moving on without havig got the *FULL* performance out of it would leave me un-satisfied.

Hasn't it been said here a million times or even more that Amiga nowadays just is a hobbyists maschine?

And exactly *THAT* is what I expect from my hobbies:
Satisfaction (in one way or annother )
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samface wrote: ...or put your money where your mouth is ... ...and support the guys developing the next generation Amiga hardware and software by buying their products.

No no - I already did that twice.

First I bought A4k+CSPPC+CVPPC+apps for more than 4000 DM without being able up to today to use it to it's full extend and then I bought that 50-Euro coupon without having got any form of return until this very moment (except the e-mail from AInc stating they received my 50 Euros).

Now I leave that up to *YOU*, to "support the guys developing the next generation Amiga hardware and software by buying their products" and so putting *YOUR* money where *YOUR* mouth is, until I got a proper return for the money I *ALREADY SPENT FOR THAT PURPOSE*!
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samface wrote: It's not that bad of a choice, now is it?

From my point of view:
NO - IT'S EVEN WORSE, as it clearly shows that the efforts *we already made to move the Amiga platform on by buying the classic PPC Amiga stuff*, is in *NO WAY* taken serious or even honoured with a ß-release of OS4...

I just hope for you that things will *NOT* evolve for you the way they did evolve for me (just exchange "A1" with "CSPPC)" :
you buy the A1 without OS4, and wait and wait and wait for the OS, that was promised to appear *BEFORE* the version for that new piece of HW called super-mini-micro-A1, but then the plan changes and they decide to focus on the super-mini-micro-A1-version, which you will get when it's done...

Last edited by Dandy on 26-Jan-2005 at 11:03 AM.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@samface

Quote:

For me OS4 would bring: No context switches. Reduced context switches, perhaps, but never entirely gone. For as long has the 68k processor is there, regardless if you use it or not, there will be context switches.

Actually, Hyperion have already said that the 68k will be turned off and there will be zero context switches. And this will make the PPC even faster.

@jahc

One of the reasons They (the usual trinity!) are doing this at all (and it is perfectly valid on its own) is that low power PPC systems, which the BPPC and CSPPC are, lets face it, are useful testbeds: if the application works well in a crippled 603e at 175MHz, it keeps up our reputation for writing low footprint high performance applications !

anyone got a rule of thumb as to the theoretical speed ratio between a 603e and a 750Fx ?

Good luck chaps, hope you get what you want - just dont expect all those hacky little bits of hardware to work ! (like silversurfers, and the like !)

Question - will this version of OS4 work with the feted new classic accelerators from ACK, etc ?

_________________
XH558 - the worlds last flying Vulcan.
ok, its actually XL426 in the picture but you know what I mean.

@Dandy

Quote:

As I understood it from an posting of H.J. Frieden, Hyperion has no rights in OS4, they're just developing it for AmigaInc.

Hyperion does have the rights to OS4.

_________________
Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

@Dandy

Yo Yo dandy! :) hehe. I was just joking ;) The picture is my pimped-out gold trimmed Benz CLK. woowhoo! I'm look so MTV.

_________________
-- --
aka Tony Rocks

@samface

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How many "came back" when early versions of MorphOS was available for free to PPC equipped classic Amiga computers?

I have no idea. But i don't think AHI would have been updated if it wasn't for MorphOS nor would MUI be here anymore.

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Your "love" for the Amiga does not put food on the table for those developing the new generation of Amiga hardware and software. Of course they would like to do whatever they can to support all members of the Amiga community, but one has to realize the limits to what they can do with their limited resources.

I never said i want a pre release for free did i ?
I would happely pay money for it and maybe even an upgrade price later when it's final.

A1 owners paid for it so why shouldnt classic users pay for it.

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You have an A1? Lucky sod.

I guess its another language thingy that we talked about before.
I don't have an A1. I thought you did though.


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Keeping your dreams and hopes alive is of course a good thing, but a sense of realism never hurt anyone either.

And that realism said to me a long time ago to let go and forget about amiga. All my former Amiga friends keep telling me over and over that i should throw the crap out and get on with it.
I say i'm waiting for OS4 and they laugh. So if its realism i should go for i would not be back here again day after day.

Searching for some small news of hope.

And lately i get the feeling that new amiga users "a1 users" seem to think they are better/more Amiga user. And that us classic users are lower in some way.

It's strange but the more one discuss the subject the less i'm inspired to keep on.

Last edited by Nickman on 26-Jan-2005 at 02:55 PM.

@Nickman

wanna know summat ? if I had a BPPC like I was going to (but they stopped making them / PhaseV went T1tz up before I got chance), I'd now be waiting for the classic version too - especially if I couldnt afford an A1/microA1.

in fact, I'd be tempted to trick out my A1200 with a new PPC only accelerator if/when they surface (I was raving over the AmiJoe 1200 too ! )

_________________
XH558 - the worlds last flying Vulcan.
ok, its actually XL426 in the picture but you know what I mean.

@Dandy
Quote:

Well, for me (and I know some others see it this way as well) the situation is that we *FIRST* want to test the OS and it's apps *ON OUR GIVEN HARDWARE*. If the test runs well, we will most likely make up our mind and buy the new HW&OS4 as well. If the test runs bad, we will have to wait and see if things improve. If there is no OS4 for classic PPC Amigas at all, we're unable to test it and so will never reach the point where we could make up our mind and buy A1/OS4. According the information I have the number of sold classic PPC accelerator boards exceeds the number of sold A1's by far.

Well, *I* personally understand some of your arguments, although I entirely disagree with your statements (not just this thread) about new companies somehow 'owing' you something for deciding to purchase a third party PPC accel card. That's sort of like telling NewTek they need to produce a new version of Toaster, Lightwave, etc for the AmigaOne (or any other) NOW....because once you bought a product from them a long time ago.

Sure, it might make sense on an emotional level, but it isn't realistic on a real world one. Companies do what they need to do to survive, period. Were AOS4 out already, of course, this sort of discussion would be a moot point...so people with classics as well as those waiting for an official release are in the same boat unfortunately.

It's certainly possible that AOS4 'final' could take long enough to see more attrtion from classic owners, that might not come back even once it's released. That's a bad situation, and one that Hyperion may or may not be calculating correctly- after all, a lot of the involvement today with the Amiga IS emotional rather than realistic (basically just meaning there are few things as a desktop OS it can do that another OS can't do for you in the form of apps, performance etc), but yet here we are.

I made a suggestion to Nick in this thread....if you feel so strongly about trying to see AOS4 for classics sooner, then try it- get 100 classic/PPC owners together with $ ready to commit, and only then contact Hyperion and see. The worst case is things stay where they are, and you wait for the final release. It may be enough 'urging' that it's at least considered.

I'd say releasing AOS4 for classics would increase the developer pool slightly....but the question is if it's worth it to Hyperion to also increase the support associated with a new 'not ready yet' platform that adds so much potential add-on hardware into the mix. Dunno.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

Quote:

Agafaster wrote: @Nickman wanna know summat ? if I had a BPPC like I was going to (but they stopped making them / PhaseV went T1tz up before I got chance), I'd now be waiting for the classic version too - especially if I couldnt afford an A1/microA1. in fact, I'd be tempted to trick out my A1200 with a new PPC only accelerator if/when they surface (I was raving over the AmiJoe 1200 too ! )

I was lucky to get one of an ad i saw when i was looking at prices you could get for an amiga1200.So i bought that and stayed a while longer.
It keept me going for some years. Then came the mediator just at the time i was about to quit again. And this realy made me stay. GFX card, NIC card, sound card in my miggy !!! didn't think the day would come.

Now i have been in the gray zone for far to long again. And i'm just fisching for a reason to stay. But so far i only seem to find reasons to go.

If someone in Jämtland buys an A1 give me a mess and i'll come and talk memories and maybe get a chance to try OS4.

About the AmiJoe. I was soooo loking forward to that card. I remeber reading about the emulation from H&P. It was so cool Ahh good old days.

@Dandy

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Dandy wrote: So a version, supporting just the basic things like UW-SCSI support, Mediator support + support for PCI USB 2.0 Highspeed, support for graphic cards (CV, BV and one or two PCI-solutions) and support for one or two PCI sound cards, would be sufficiant, if I didn't forget something important...

While some other people would like support for G-Rex PCI addons and whatever may be available for it, while others would probably want support for Prometheus PCI addons, and then some people would like support for Cybervision64 graphic cards, and then some people want support for melody or prelude sound cards, etc. Shall I go on?

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How can it be that one or two thousand sold A1 units are "alot bigger market" compared to the number of sold CSPPC's and BPPC's?

Because the number of CSPPC and BPPC has been shrinking for 8 years now while the AmigaOne is a new computer with an expanding userbase. The AmigaOne has potentials for the future, the CSPPC/BPPC's does not.

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Quote: samface wrote: Spending time and resources on getting AmigaOS4 to work on classic Amiga hardware ... Accordig H.J. Frieden *THAT* work has already been done...

He also said that there is no install script and that there is quite alot of hardware drivers missing for the various hardware configurations among CSPPC/BPPC users. It functions in the sense that it is in beta testing, but that is quite far from being ready for a release to end-users that wants their money's worth.

Quote:

Well, for me (and I know some others see it this way as well) the situation is that we *FIRST* want to test the OS and it's apps *ON OUR GIVEN HARDWARE*. If the test runs well, we will most likely make up our mind and buy the new HW&OS4 as well.

Which is just another good reason to not make it available before it's finished since an unfinished product might give the user the wrong impression. Of course they will make the product available to end-users once it does, like you said, "run well". Until then, it makes much more sense to only make it available to a selected group of beta-testers, don't you agree?

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If there is no OS4 for classic PPC Amigas at all, we're unable to test it and so will never reach the point where we could make up our mind and buy A1/OS4.

Again, it will become available and you will be able to test it on your classic Amiga hardware expanded with a PPC accelerator, just not yet.

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According the information I have the number of sold classic PPC accelerator boards exceeds the number of sold A1's by far.

Again, you're talking about a product sold by a company that went bancrupt 8 years ago. What makes you think the majority of those individuals would still be using their up to 8 years old computer addons for their up to 12 years old computers? It's a shrinking market that will keep shrinking, even if AmigaOS4 is made available for it.

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So the *EXISTING* market (not the potential one) should actually be even bigger for CSPPC/BPPC than it is for A1!

Most definitly not. About a million Amiga500's was sold back in the late eighties, do you think a new OS written for the Amiga500 would have a bigger market than the AmigaOne as well?

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Already the access to the OS4 "killer" apps would mean a huge benefit (AE, AmigaWriter, Mozilla, OpenOffice...)

Wow! OpenOffice and Mozilla is available for AmigaOS4? Seriously, I'd say AmigaOS4 will become available for classic Amiga computers long before those applications becomes available for AmigaOS4, if they ever will be (I'm only being realistic here). As for AmigaWriter, isn't it already available for AmigaOS3.x? Don't know what you mean by "AE", though.

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Quote: samface wrote: Anyone willing to give me a list of things you would be able to do with your PPC equipped classic Amiga if you had AmigaOS4 on it that you can't do with AmigaOS3.x? I'm quite sure it won't be very long, atleast not in comparison with the list of things that AmigaOne users are able to thanks to the fact that they now atleast have an AmigaOS to run on their hardware. I'm not sure if I really got your point here. As stated above I would have access to all he OS4 applications, once I have OS4 running on my CSPPC.

And what would those applications that you cannot run on AmigaOS3.x but AmigaOS4 be?

Quote:

And once I actually have it, I would expect to be able to run all the applications you can run on your A1/OS4 system - just a little bit slower.

Sure, but so far I haven't seen any AmigaOS4 only "killer" applications. "Killer" applications takes time to develop and AmigaOS4 hasn't been available long enough for anything like that to be available just yet. Hence why AmigaOS3.x with WarpUP/PowerUP really hasn't that much to gain from running AmigaOS4 *right now* and doesn't suffer that much from waiting a bit longer. I mean, it's not like classic Amiga users would be entirely without any version of the AmigaOS like the AmigaOne owners was before they got the pre-release.

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Before I bother to move on to the next stage of Amiga evolution, I certainly want to "enjoy" the experience of the *FULL* performance of my CSPPC *FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME* for a while. I mean - I payed a lot of money for it and moving on without havig got the *FULL* performance out of it would leave me un-satisfied.

Maybe you should file a complaint to the ones that you bought the hardware from, then? I don't think it's fair to put the blame on Hyperion for not being able to get the most out of your PPC addon for your classic Amiga, they have no responsibility to satisfy your demand to get the most out of some third party hardware addon for your classic Amiga that you bought from a company that went bancrupt 8 years ago. I'm sorry but you're simply barking up the wrong tree.

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Hasn't it been said here a million times or even more that Amiga nowadays just is a hobbyists maschine?

Well, I'd say the idea is to go from just a hobbyist machine to atleast a niche machine. In either case, neither Hyperion nor any of it's partners are some form of charity organization for Amiga hobbyists. We're talking about companies with a need to make profit like any other company.

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And exactly *THAT* is what I expect from my hobbies: Satisfaction (in one way or annother )

Who doesn't want satisfaction?

Quote:

Quote: samface wrote: ...or put your money where your mouth is ... ...and support the guys developing the next generation Amiga hardware and software by buying their products. No no - I already did that twice.

You have two AmigaOne's with AmigaOS4 already? So, what are you complaining about then?

Quote:

First I bought A4k+CSPPC+CVPPC+apps for more than 4000 DM without being able up to today to use it to it's full extend

Yeah, and I bought a really expensive laptop the other day and I can't use it in full since it runs the giant resource hog called "Windows". Your point being?

Quote:

and then I bought that 50-Euro coupon without having got any form of return until this very moment (except the e-mail from AInc stating they received my 50 Euros).

Well, that's something between you and Amiga Inc. then, now isn't it? Hyperion nor Eyetech never got to see a penny of that money.

Quote:

Now I leave that up to *YOU*, to "support the guys developing the next generation Amiga hardware and software by buying their products" and so putting *YOUR* money where *YOUR* mouth is, until I got a proper return for the money I *ALREADY SPENT FOR THAT PURPOSE*!

Hey, *I* am NOT the one complaining or expecting companies to simply give me what I want regardless if the company doesn't think that it would be best for their product. YOU are.

Quote:

Quote: samface wrote: It's not that bad of a choice, now is it? From my point of view: NO - IT'S EVEN WORSE, as it clearly shows that the efforts *we already made to move the Amiga platform on by buying the classic PPC Amiga stuff*, is in *NO WAY* taken serious or even honoured with a ß-release of OS4...

Again, why would they "honour" your purchase of a third party addon hardware product which was manufactured 8 years ago by a nowadays bancrupt company?

Quote:

I just hope for you that things will *NOT* evolve for you the way they did evolve for me (just exchange "A1" with "CSPPC)" : you buy the A1 without OS4, and wait and wait and wait for the OS, that was promised to appear *BEFORE* the version for that new piece of HW called super-mini-micro-A1, but then the plan changes and they decide to focus on the super-mini-micro-A1-version, which you will get when it's done...

First of all, I don't own any AmigaOne nor AmigaOS4. Though, I do own an A1200 expanded with a BlizzardPPC as well as a BlizzardVision graphics card. I also happen to be a member of the Club Amiga (the t-shirt is nicely folded in my closet as I write this) and I also bought the AmigaDE Party Pack. Surprisingly enough, we're in about the same situation, now aren't we? The main difference between you and I would be that we have come to different conclusions about certain things, like who owes what to whom, for example.

Last edited by samface on 26-Jan-2005 at 03:33 PM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

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@samface

That was a long post ! And with very good points...

@Dandy
Quote:

Now I leave that up to *YOU*, to "support the guys developing the next generation Amiga hardware and software by buying their products" and so putting *YOUR* money where *YOUR* mouth is, until I got a proper return for the money I *ALREADY SPENT FOR THAT PURPOSE*!

Maybe you can help me...
- In the 90' I received an 80286 which cost me a little fortune. Now I can't install WinXP on it.
- I also bought an 80486 (DX I think) and I WANT WINDOWS XP on it !!!
So it looks like I have to contact M$ to either refund me the Hardware I bought or write a version of WinXP for it just to see if I like it !



Jerry

_________________
- AOS has been ported to ex-86 ! It's called AROS and WinUAE... Or E-UAE on Linux !

- A1XE-G4 up and runing with:
512MB Ram / 200GB and 80GB HardDisks on Sii0680.
AOS4 Final Update / AmiZilla 0.1 Alpha

@Jerryuk007

Good point

When i think about it, i have spendt 4 times as much on pc hardware than Amiga hardware.
So has everyone else when they start to think about it.

So dont come here and proclaim that the amigaone is expensive, because its not

the a1 may be expensive at first, but in the long run, u would end up spending much more money on the pc.

And this minimac thingy, have u all seen how expensive it is to upgrade it???

Last edited by Restore2003 on 26-Jan-2005 at 04:35 PM.
Last edited by Restore2003 on 26-Jan-2005 at 04:34 PM.

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@samface

First of all thanks very much that you took the time and patience for this long reply.
Although I regret to say it - there still are some points left that I did'nt understand fully/do not fully agree with:

Quote:

samface wrote: ... and then some people want support for melody or prelude sound cards, etc. Shall I go on?

No, no - no need. I think I got your point here.

Quote:

samface wrote: Because the number of CSPPC and BPPC has been shrinking for 8 years now ...

Shrinking???
Mine has not been shrinking during the last 8 years!
I bought one and - guess what - still have one!


Quote:

samface wrote: Spending time and resources on getting AmigaOS4 to work on classic Amiga hardware ...

Quote:

Dandy wrote: Accordig H.J. Frieden *THAT* work has already been done...

Quote:

samface wrote: He also said that there is no install script and that there is quite alot of hardware drivers missing for the various hardware configurations among CSPPC/BPPC users.

I was more aiming at the "getting AmigaOS4 to work on classic Amiga hardware"-part...

Quote:

samface wrote: It functions in the sense that it is in beta testing, but that is quite far from being ready for a release to end-users that wants their money's worth.

Hummmmm - well - how do you define "beta testing"?
From my dayly work I know that if a product goes from alpha- to beta testing state it is finished so far.
Beta testing just has the purpose to iron out bugs (as e.g. a not working "Delete"-button).

So how is "beta testing" defined in the Amiga world?

Quote:

samface wrote: Which is just another good reason to not make it available before it's finished since an unfinished product might give the user the wrong impression.

Which leads me to the philosophical question: What is better in the current situation - a "wrong impression" or just "no impression"?


Quote:

samface wrote: Until then, it makes much more sense to only make it available to a selected group of beta-testers, don't you agree?

Didn't know all A1/OS4 owners are beta testers as well - must have missed that - sorry!

Quote:

samface wrote: Again, it will become available and you will be able to test it on your classic Amiga hardware expanded with a PPC accelerator, just not yet.

Lets hope the best - I'm just afraid that one day they tell us the plan changed again and there will be no OS4 version for classic PPC Amigas at all due to lack of interest...

Quote:

samface wrote: ... About a million Amiga500's was sold back in the late eighties, do you think a new OS written for the Amiga500 would have a bigger market than the AmigaOne as well?

Although I do not really understand your comparison to the A500, yes, I think that there still are more A500 in use today than A1's/OS4 sold alltogether up to now and so in deed represent a bigger market as the A1...

Quote:

samface wrote: ...As for AmigaWriter, isn't it already available for AmigaOS3.x?

Yes.
Most likely your not interested as you're not affected - but nevertheless:
Some time ago we had an orthography reform of the German language here in Germany.

Unfortunately *ALL* Amiga wordprocessors came out *BEFORE* that orthography reform of the German language, so that they are pretty useless today, as soon as it comes to the writing of "official" letters, such as applications, for example, as the Thesaurus and the automatic spelling correction just support old German orthography.

I would expect any *GERMAN* version of *ANY* wordprocessor for OS4 support new German orthography.

Quote:

samface wrote: Don't know what you mean by "AE", though.

AE = ArtEffect from Haage & Partner, who made AmigaWriter, OS 3.5 and OS 3.9 as well.

I read at their forum at http://www.haage-partner.de/php/forum/ that they are working on an version of ArtEffect for OS4 as well.
And ArtEffect certainly was a "killer app" for classic Amigas...

Quote:

samface wrote: Anyone willing to give me a list of things you would be able to do with your PPC equipped classic Amiga if you had AmigaOS4 on it that you can't do with AmigaOS3.x?

To run all the OS4 applications?

Quote:

samface wrote: And what would those applications that you cannot run on AmigaOS3.x but AmigaOS4 be?

I would expect to be able to run all the OS4-native applications you can run on your A1/OS4 system - just a little bit slower.

Quote:

samface wrote: I mean, it's not like classic Amiga users would be entirely without any version of the AmigaOS like the AmigaOne owners was before they got the pre-release.

A1 owners before the pre-release have very well been able to run all Amiga Os versions up to v3.9 plus all the classic applications by using UAE for Linux...

Quote:

samface wrote: Maybe you should file a complaint to the ones that you bought the hardware from, then? I don't think it's fair to put the blame on Hyperion for not being able to get the most out of your PPC addon for your classic Amiga, they have no responsibility to satisfy your demand to get the most out of some third party hardware addon for your classic Amiga that you bought from a company that went bancrupt 8 years ago. I'm sorry but you're simply barking up the wrong tree.

I'm just afraid that one day they tell us the plan changed again and there will be no OS4 version for classic PPC Amigas at all due to lack of interest.

I really would be glad if I could stirr some other classic PPC Amiga users up to show their interest/desire in OS4 for classic PPC Amigas publically, so the responsible people can see that here actually *IS* an demand for OS4 for classic PPC Amigas and then hopefully don't drop the plan to release it...

Quote:

samface wrote: ... We're talking about companies with a need to make profit like any other company.

And exactly that's why I feel OS4 should be finalized as quick as possible - for the A1 as well as for PPC equipped classic Amigas!

Quote:

samface wrote: Yeah, and I bought a really expensive laptop the other day and I can't use it in full since it runs the giant resource hog called "Windows". Your point being?

I'd say you knew that before - why did you buy it then?
(Aside from the possibility to intall Linux, QNX, AROS... instead)
Your point being?

Quote:

samface wrote: Hey, *I* am NOT the one complaining or expecting companies to simply give me what I want regardless if the company doesn't think that it would be best for their product. YOU are.

I didn't mean you personally - I was more aiming at those who didn't spend money at all up to now to support Amiga platforms transit to PPC...
(my fault - bad wording - sorry)

Quote:

samface wrote: Again, why would they "honour" your purchase of a third party add-on hardware product which was manufactured 8 years ago by a nowadays bancrupt company?

Perhaps because they already announced it?

Perhaps because initially it was planned to release the version for PPC equipped classic Amigas even *PRIOR* to the A1 version?

Quote:

samface wrote: ... The main difference between you and I would be that we have come to different conclusions about certain things, like who owes what to whom, for example.

That's not really surprisingly, given that one has to gather Amiga related news/facts from countless different webpages all around the world.

As one easily can miss the one or the other piece of information, I would consider it to be quiete normal that we come to different conclusions...

Last edited by Dandy on 31-Jan-2005 at 11:41 AM.
Last edited by Dandy on 31-Jan-2005 at 11:38 AM.

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Dandy
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He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Jerryuk007

Quote:

Jerryuk007 wrote: ... Maybe you can help me... - In the 90' I received an 80286 which cost me a little fortune. Now I can't install WinXP on it.

That's quiete normal. You'd have to do some slight modifications to your system first - such as upgrading your CPU by at least five (!) generations, add an RAM expansion card, add an PCI bridgeboard, add an USB card, an CD-ROM drive, an...


Quote:

Jerryuk007 wrote: - I also bought an 80486 (DX I think) and I WANT WINDOWS XP on it !!! ...

So why dont you install it then?
I mean - I didn't try it myself, but have repeatedly heard people claiming they successfully installed it - just that it took ages...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

The main reasons why AmigaOS 4.0 isn't released for Cyberstorm and Blizzard yet are

- Missing PCI support. Right now you need to use the original software for the PCI system, and hence all drivers are emulated. We want to make sure that it runs with our own PCI system.

- Missing drivers. Things like the SCSI driver on the A3000 and BlizzardSCSI are still missing or are incomplete, or only emulated.

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@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: @Dandy The main reasons why AmigaOS 4.0 isn't released for Cyberstorm and Blizzard yet are - Missing PCI support. Right now you need to use the original software for the PCI system, and hence all drivers are emulated. We want to make sure that it runs with our own PCI system. - Missing drivers. Things like the SCSI driver on the A3000 and BlizzardSCSI are still missing or are incomplete, or only emulated.

Aha - thanks for clarification, Rogue!

As you wrote "We want to make sure that it runs with our own PCI system." - what do you mean with that?
Are you talking about a set of drivers or about an hardware solution (like Mediator or G-Rex)?

Will the UW-SCSI host adapter on the CSPPC be supported?

BTW:

Recently I mistyped your nick and to my blemish I have to admitt that I *ALWAYS* misread it as "Rouge" (what then led to my mistypos).
Now - to close my knowledge-gap - I'd really be interested in how you pronounce "Rogue"?
Is it "Rogü"???

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

As you wrote "We want to make sure that it runs with our own PCI system." - what do you mean with that?

expansion library now has its own PCI subsystem. We're not planning to go into the hardware business any time soon

Quote:

Will the UW-SCSI host adapter on the CSPPC be supported?

Yes.

Quote:

Recently I mistyped your nick and to my blemish I have to admitt that I *ALWAYS* misread it as "Rouge" (what then led to my mistypos). Now - to close my knowledge-gap - I'd really be interested in how you pronounce "Rogue"? Is it "Rogü"???

See here, but please ignore any talk about scoundrels, tramps, and elephants

(I'd rather like to think about "Rogue Squadron" in Star Wars )

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