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      /  Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
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CodeSmith 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 20:40:29
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@falemagn

That's actually quite simple: AROS, as an AmigaOS 3.x clone, is a very primitive OS. I have a Windows XP/Linux 2.6 dual boot box, and I would never use an AmigaOS 3 clone (that includes OS4 BTW, at least until they implement isolated memory spaces) for any "serious" work. The lack of memory protection makes every single program a ticking timebomb - a single stray write now may cause a crash or data corruption hours from now. I find that acceptable (sortof) in a machine that I use for "throwaway" tasks like browsing the web or playing games, but not eg to prepare the slides for tomorrow's meeting with the boss.

That's the one thing I don't understand about AROS. You don't need to worry about binary compatibility, so you could have "fixed" those AmigaOS design flaws by changing the APIs slightly. Eg any task sees all of memory like OS3, but any memory that the current task did not allocate is mapped read-only, and message semantics are changed so that all message structs are read-only (so you have separate request and reply messages, instead of reusing the same chunk of memory). Yes, that would break source compatibility, but I doubt it would be a huge source code change for users (if it's implemented cleverly, you may even be able to hide most of it in macros), and it's not like you have thousands of existing programs that would break if you did this. MOS and OS4 do have a tricky problem in their hands because they want to remain binary compatible, but AROS, being mostly an x86 OS, doesn't need to. What gives?

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falemagn 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 20:46:40
#42 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@CodeSmith

Quote:

That's actually quite simple: AROS, as an AmigaOS 3.x clone, is a very primitive OS.


Sorry to spoil your brot, but AROS is in the same league as AmigaOS4, primitiviness-wise. That was actually my sole point: if you're keen on using AOS4, why wouldn't you use AROS?

AROS was born as an AmigaOS replacement, a portable reincarnation of AmigaOS, as such it retains all of its aspects, including its drawbacks. It's not true we don't have to care about binary compatibility, as AROS isn't meant to be only run on x86, it also runs on PPC already, and 68k was at the time a conceivable target, and still may be nowadays.

It's part of the AROS goals to be AmigaOS-compatible.

That said, AROS has already improved upon AmigaOS quite a lot, in many areas, and will continue to do so.

But, coming back to the original point, my question was geared at AOS4 users or wannabe users.

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olegil 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 20:50:10
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@falemagn

Obviously you can't read very well, or you would have seen he states that OS4 is no better. If he isn't keen on using OS4 for serious work, why should he use AROS?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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falemagn 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 20:53:41
#44 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@olegil

I know English isn't your mother language, so I forgive you for not remembering that "you" is also used in an inpersonal form, and wasn't directed at him specifically

_________________
It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

~~ Henry Ford

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number6 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 22:13:56
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@itix

Quote:
@treblesix

This is old quote. He said this maybe two or three years ago.


@treblesix

Link to this "article" and date please.

#6

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*Secrecy has served us so well*

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pixie 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 22:16:01
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3115
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@falemagn
If you know how much trouble this impersonable form has take me in the past, almost made me believe it wasn't such... all because this foreign english speakers!

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

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T_Power 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 22:23:43
#47 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2003
Posts: 359
From: Durban, South Africa

This is old news, but keeps popping up again and again....

If the original team had such a defeatist attitude, there would never have been an Amiga in the first place.
If every one thought the same in all markets, there would be zero choice, and only one make of anything. (boring)

Currently the hardware is not state of the art, but for now so what, let the dev team at least finalize the OS with what they have.
Later hardware could be based on some offering from PASemi or a Cell based system.

Lets stay away from x86 and Micro$oft, ALL other systems that have moved to x86 HAVE suffered because of Micro$oft. Linux is FREE and even so on x86 it is a joke compared to MS Winblows when looking at market share.
Before you jump on my case about Linux, all 3 of my laptops run Linux, but so what.
Only 2 of my friends run linux (because I forced it down their throats ) most people I know run winblows XP and 1 runs Mac OS X.

If OS4.0 was complete NOW for x86 and given away FREE, it would die a quick and sudden death, as there would be NO lock-in. If Apple fail to provide some sort of strong lock-in for there H/W & S/W they will die too. The moment you can boot OS X on any x86, OS X will be pirated, and Apple H/W will become redundant.

Dave Haynie has become old and has lost the passion. , at least Carl Sassenrath is still a Rebol.

Cheers,
Tim


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Troels 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 22:33:51
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2005
From: Unknown

@SvenHarvey

Quote:
yeah lets go x86, its a perfect technology...


Why, as an enduser should I care about the underlying technology, all I want is OS4 and a certain level of quality hardware at a decent price.

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A1200 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 22:47:41
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3087
From: Westhall, UK

Imagine if OS4 or MOS was on x86 and supported dual xeon CPU's!!?!?!

What a machine to base the latest CGI projects on! It would be like back in the days when the A4000 with video toaster did CGI for Babylon 5 and Star Trek : Voyager.

/me cums

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Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

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A1200 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 22:51:38
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3087
From: Westhall, UK

@A1200

Oh and dual 64bit Xeon machines! That would be like having a super computer in your house compared with anything the Amiga user has now...

Someone should port one or t'other just for fun! Actually it would be expensive hardware that actually people would feel deserved the price tag!

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Framiga 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 22:54:34
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jul-2003
Posts: 2213
From: Unknown

they are coming!

http://www.apple.com/



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umisef 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 22:56:10
#52 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Amitalon + AmigaOSXL has proven that user base in not interested in yet an other AmigaOS emulated on top of some thing else.


You mean selling as many copies (according to H&P's sales reports --- which may well be low, for obvious reasons) as there are AmigaONEs is a clear indication of lack of interest? Especially given that the thing was only really on sale for 6 months (as opposed to the AmigaONEs 4 years), and severely overpriced by the distributor (one thing it and the A1 have in common :)

But it gets worse --- this was SOFTWARE after all. And I know for a fact that it got copied, "shared" and passed-on. I counted downloads for one of the later updates, and the number was larger than the number of copies sold.

Quote:
Other systems like BeOS, Zeta and QNX is not big success on x86


Well, selling 1000 copies a week, at 99 Euro each, Zeta would appear to have made as much turnover since Thanksgiving as the whole current AmigaONE/OS4 project has made during its 4+ years of existence. That may not be a BIG success, but it sure is a BIGGER success than anything Amiga has managed in quite some time.

(Personally, I am amazed by the C64DTV, which made that kind of turnover in the vert first day it was on sale. 4+ years, vs one day....)

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serk118 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:04:22
#53 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 685
From: London(uk)

@treblesix

i will be very happy to see OS4.0 or so on to boot on my PC instead of Windoze or linux.
I`m not talking about emulation OS 4/5/6 on Windoze..

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:09:06
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 3035
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@treblesix

In many respects - Dave is right. If the Amiga is to smash back through again it can do it one of two ways:

1). (The boring horrible way) - Risk doing an x86 port and make it very low cost along with lots of marketing to etch out an existence that way - condemning what really made Amiga great (the custom hardware) to an OS -only solution.

2). Combine with wizo new hardware and the ultra coolness of OS4 to form a new machine and go for it all again. This option also requires lots of marketing.

In short - it kind of looks impossible from where we are standing now so Hyperion are doing absolutely the best thing. They need to carve out support and create a new market on a very tight budget - but right now if they don't get some hardware soon they really will be in trouble.

Was Dave Haynie really 'lead engineer'? I know he did the superb DiskSalv as well as the Zorro III bus - but did he actually do chip-set work?

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Sam

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Fransexy 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:13:48
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@Seer

Quote:
Apple seems to think it will do them good. Why ? For one thing, most users don't give a about what hardware the OS runs on. As long as it's cheap,.......



look ----> http://www.apple.com/uk/macbookpro/ ¤2179 is not that i call cheap

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olegil 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:14:33
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@falemagn

Even so, I seriously think you used the word you wrong here if you meant it as impersonal form:

Quote:

Quote:

That's actually quite simple: AROS, as an AmigaOS 3.x clone, is a very primitive OS.

Sorry to spoil your brot, but AROS is in the same league as AmigaOS4, primitiviness-wise.


I just will not accept that this isn't a reply direcly to Codesmith. If it's more a general remark to the thread then you're a pretty lousy quoter.

But it's not like you (personal form) are ever going to admit being wrong, is it?

Last edited by olegil on 10-Jan-2006 at 11:25 PM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:15:58
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 3035
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@Framiga

Quote:
they are coming!


After a lifetime of telling everyone Intel processors are crap - suddenly they're all good!

What a surprise!

Apple has been forced into this position with the cost, availability and speed of Intel chips. It will be very interesting to see if this does them more harm than good and just how much damage MacOS on normal PCs (as is bound to happen) will do to them.

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Sam

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hatschi 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:29:06
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@-Sam-

Quote:
Was Dave Haynie really 'lead engineer'?


Yes.

For more info, have a look on the wikipedia pages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Haynie (btw, nice photo! )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorro_III

Luckily, he did not have to care about RoHS, although he was the LEAD engineer.

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DrBombcrater 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:29:43
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
the x86 is way more common it makes it easier to pirate the OS whit out paying for it

It also makes it far, far easier for people to buy the OS and use it. And so what if piracy steals some sales? Even if 9 out of 10 copies were pirated, legitimate sales would still be tens or hudreds of times any possible sales on PPC.

Illegal copies are totally and completely irrelevant - piracy or no piracy, OS4 for x86 would outsell the PPC version. That means more income for Hyperion, more users, more developers, and a bigger potential market for applications.

Quote:
Other systems like BeOS, Zeta and QNX is not big success on x86 just by running on the x86 at end of the day; what make an os depends on what programs you can use, not only boot speed, amigaos covers a minimum thanks to it's legacy support.

Zeta and QNX are much bigger successes than OS4 has been to date. In the x86 market you basically just need to show up to get some sales. TBH, I think the x86 market is crying out for a product like OS4. An elegant, fast, simple, friendly-but-flexible OS would go down a storm.

Look at the number of people running hacked copies of OSX on x86. Despite that OS's hardware support issues and lack of native apps (not to mention its total illegality) thousands of people are using it. The demand is there.

Quote:
The AROS projects shows what AMIGOS4 will look like on the x86 more or less, no direct support, no applications = no users.

AROS, from what I've seen of it, is very raw compared to OS4. I downloaded the latest AROS-Max CD and binned it after 10 minutes because it spectacularly failed to drive my very standard PS/2 mouse correctly.

Quote:
Amitalon + AmigaOSXL has proven that user base in not interested in yet an other AmigaOS emulated on top of some thing else.

Sigh. Have you ever used Amithlon? Have you ever even talked to someone who runs Amithlon on a correctly-setup system? No? I didn't think so.

Amithlon was, considering the tiny amount of time it was on the market, a huge success. It's still used by a lot of people even today.

Quote:
It's way better for Hyperion to spend there time expanding what AmigaOS can do then port it over to yet a different type of CPU that, has little in common whit the 680x0 or PowerUP CPU cards used.

If Hyperion don't port OS4 to x86 then, frankly, whatever work they do on it will be wasted, because it will die. OS4's chances of gaining enough sales on custom PPC hardware to justify future development were never very good, but with desktop PPC in freefall it now has zero chance.

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olegil 
Re: Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors
Posted on 10-Jan-2006 23:33:22
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@-Sam-

Hehe, yeah. It's that "G4 processors are good, don't believe the MHz myth" thingie that I'm really hoping will stain them for a while.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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