@billt

Quote:

Rogue has also said they won't start a port until it is "legally possible". I assume that this means until all required licenses are completed. People have tried to get such licenses, but failed to even get a response from one licensor. Thus, it is not yet "legal" to start a port, even if this 20000euros were paid.

Let's say for sake of argument, that everyone would like to be involved in "success".
If you accept this premise, then you must include AmigaInc in that argument.
What, if after past experience, they wish some kind of "proof" that new hardware
is worthy of their support and therefore worthy of a license?
Wouldn't this be the classic "which came first the chicken or the egg" scenario?
Without work (port) on the table, how could you supply a reasonable "proof of
concept" that would illicit AmigaInc's support and therefore a license?

#6

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@billt


To pay 100 European is as to pay the license, it is to pay the license.
If you buy $indows X $and do you pay it 100 Euro you don't pay the license?

According to you Asus pays a license of 20.000 Euro because $indows $P turns on her hardware? Don't seem me.

@billt
Quote:

Rogue has also said they won't start a port until it is "legally possible". I assume that this means until all required licenses are completed. People have tried to get such licenses, but failed to even get a response from one licensor. Thus, it is not yet "legal" to start a port, even if this 20000euros were paid.

So this must be basically the same problem for any other desktop-oriented solution (Amy'05 and others). I am not exactly sure if the PV requires a license. The Amiga Inc. website even does not mention BPPC (although I am pretty sure it's included):

"AmigaOne Partners have the right to distribute AmigaOS 4.0 into the AmigaOne desktop computer market and into Cyberstorm PPC enabled devices. Distribution into any other market or device requires a licensing and distribution agreement with Amiga, Inc."

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@polka.

Quote:

"AmigaOne Partners have the right to distribute AmigaOS 4.0 into the AmigaOne desktop computer market

For this contract to remain legal Amiga Inc could not artificially restrict or choke the 'AmigaOne desktop computer market'.

I think this is academic. Amiga Inc have burned their boats with regards to initiating any kind of legal action here in Europe. It would be a bit like Osama Bin Laden turning up at a Walmart in the USA to claim his "two for the price of one" voucher on a box of Cornflakes.

** Rogue Alert! **
I'm using a higly inappropriate analogy/simile!
** Woop, Woop!**

@yashin71

Quote:

To pay 100 European is as to pay the license, it is to pay the license. If you buy $indows X $and do you pay it 100 Euro you don't pay the license? According to you Asus pays a license of 20.000 Euro because $indows $P turns on her hardware? Don't seem me.

The OS4 universe is a very different beast than the Windows or Asus universe. You're comparing apples to orangutangs. The rules for supporting and selling a PC running Windows are different than the OS4 companies have chosen to use. OS4 vendors do not ahve to do things the same way Microsoft or Asus do things, and it does appear there is a difference.

Here's why I interpret this thread's comments as not including the licenses in that 20000euro...
In comment #95 it was said that the costs for porting is 20000euro. That doesn't specify any licensing is included or not, leaving some things to assumption. A dangerous thing... In comment #113 wegster asks for clarification. Rogue replies in comment #126 that this is Hyperion's cost to do the work. Some things are still open to assumptions, but it does appear to exclude any license fees to Amiga Inc.

And thus I interpret things as meaning that 20000euro alone doesn't buy us a "legal" OS4 port. Splitting it into 200 chunks of 100euro each doesn't change that. There's still something additional to deal with, which is still unknown. If I've taken anything wrong, I await correction from Hyperion.

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@number6

Quote:

Let's say for sake of argument, that everyone would like to be involved in "success". If you accept this premise, then you must include AmigaInc in that argument. What, if after past experience, they wish some kind of "proof" that new hardware is worthy of their support and therefore worthy of a license? Wouldn't this be the classic "which came first the chicken or the egg" scenario? Without work (port) on the table, how could you supply a reasonable "proof of concept" that would illicit AmigaInc's support and therefore a license?

For an OS4 port to be "legal", one needs a license from Amiga Inc., therefore Amiga Inc. does need to be involved in any success. Unfortunately their reputation on this topic isn't a great one. Attempts to license OS4 for Peg have all failed, and that set top company that actually made it to the table still came back empty handed.

I once inquired about the details for getting all licenses completed and porting done. Those contacts who actually responded did encourage me to bring a complete hardware product to the table before any costs and fees would be defined. Yes, I felt very much chicken or egg there. If I don't know how much the OS will add to my harware price, or if I can even get the license at all, then why should I go to all the effort and cost involved with a new design or in licensing an existing design? Will the total package price be too much and users won't buy it? I dunno. Even if I succeed with some hardware platform, is it possible to get a legal OS4 port? I dunno. Why the heck should I shell out tens of thousands of dollars of my own personal money? I dunno. It's frustrating and demotivating, even when the sane business plan looks to actually make money with such a thing outside the Amiga market. At least now I have this 20000euro number to ponder. But what else must go with it, and are those things "possible"? I dunno... Grrr...

I applaud Troika and ACK for not giving up.

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@Colin_Camper

Quote:

For this contract to remain legal Amiga Inc could not artificially restrict or choke the 'AmigaOne desktop computer market'.

Does this market still exist, and can it be interfered with?

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@Tomas
Quote:

Quote: > The only alternative would be to write a OS from scratch and then it would > really not be anything like AOS would it? The only alternative would be to write a OS from scratch and then it would really not be anything like AOS would it? You wouldn't be able to *CALL* it AmigaOS, of course. But then again, you might actually be able to run it on shipping hardware... Do you have any idea on how hard it is to write a OS from scratch?? You wouldn't be able to *CALL* it AmigaOS, of course. But then again, you might actually be able to run it on shipping hardware... Do you have any idea on how hard it is to write a OS from scratch??

Come on --- surely you are aware of an OS which was written from scratch, is quite a lot like AmigaOS, cannot be called AmigaOS, yet runs on currently shipping hardware?!? Think of a butterfly.....

@billt

Thank you for you reply.
When I first wrote my "chicken and the egg" post, I honestly felt I was being a
bit simplistic and naive. But I had a point.
I wanted to question whether there were "outside" or "human" elements that come
into play here.
Just as an example, the word "trust" comes to mind. If elements such as trust
were more abundant in the early days and in shorter supply at this point...
Can better communications be employed to help build back elements such as trust,
which may be highly underestimated as regards their value in moving forward?

#6

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@billt

"Trusting" that I will not double post again...

#6

Last edited by number6 on 17-Mar-2006 at 04:35 PM.

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@yashin71

Quote:

yashin71 wrote: @ALL If 200 person pay 100 Euro for port of AOS4 on Peg2, the license and the job for the porting is paid, this way all pegII with AOS4 sold, the result go to AmigaINC and Hyper. This is marketing. If in this moment where hardware doesn't exist, who wants an Amiga he buys the PEG2 with AOS4. It is the only alternative.

Here's another novel approach:

1. A software producer produces software for hardware platforms that the producer thinks are viable.
2. Customers buy the software product and thus pay for the production.

But that mysteriously complex model only works everywhere except for this bizarre amiverse... Here, the most important thing is that hardware is sold by an "Amiga dealer" on an "Amiga market" as "a new Amiga". Everything else comes second, including the survival of the product: AmigaOS.
:P

Ed: Cleaned up censored language... ;)

Last edited by Seehund on 17-Mar-2006 at 04:46 PM.

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@umisef

[pedantic mode on]

Well, the butterfly OS I know borrows some API and design of AmigaOS so it's not created totally from scratch.

@billt

Quote:

And thus I interpret things as meaning that 20000euro alone doesn't buy us a "legal" OS4 port. Splitting it into 200 chunks of 100euro each doesn't change that. There's still something additional to deal with, which is still unknown

If besides paying 20.000 European it needs to pay an additional to AmigaInc, we are fresh. It is out of every logic of market. It is the death of Amiga and AOS4.
We making two calculations.
To produce 1000 cd with AmigaOS4 needs to pay 1.500 Euro therefore 1,50 Euro for every piece. If you add 0,50 for the custody you arrive 2,00. If this cd you sell it 120 European (because this is the cost of AOS4) AmigaInc earn us 118 Euro. If to Hyper, AmigaINC recognizes 25 Euro for every sold cd, AmigaInc it earns 93 Euro that multiplied for the 1000 produced pieces, the total one is 93,000 European of profit. BUT WHICH COST ADDITIONAL YOU WANT FOR AN INCOMPLETE SYSTEM AND STILL IN BETA, BUT WE JOKER? BUT THAT KIND OF MARKETING IS THIS?



According to me everything is said because to bring AmigaOS4 on the PegII is a defeat, considering that he has been declared on all the forums that the PegI is not a mobo authorized. Remember you that in this case "pride is before the collapse"

@billt
The big question, of course, is whether it is also "legally possible" for Troika's Amy05...

As it currently stands, the only TANGIBLE difference I can see between an Amy05 & a Pegasos, is that the Pegasos already exists (and is known to work). There may well be problems with licensing & porting, but they apply equally to both Amy05 & Pegasos.

Last edited by ChrisH on 17-Mar-2006 at 05:23 PM.

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@Rogue

Proves nothing, I also have to abuse reports.

You're abusing reports ? You're an report abuser ???

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@ChrisH

Quote:

As it currently stands, the only TANGIBLE difference I can see between an Amy05 & a Pegasos, is that the Pegasos already exists (and is known to work). There may well be problems with licensing & porting, but they apply equally to both Amy05 & Pegasos

Indeed...

I'm just impressed that they haven't lost hope and seem to continue with the project.

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Is it possible to sub-licence an AmigaOne licence
from Eyetech?

Bye,
TMTisFree

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Who knows?

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Quote:

billt wrote: @Colin_Camper Quote: Hyperion announce a PegII OS4 preorder for Eu100. They state that they will start port for these people as soon as the 200th sale is made. Rogue has also said they won't start a port until it is "legally possible". I assume that this means until all required licenses are completed. People have tried to get such licenses, but failed to even get a response from one licensor. Thus, it is not yet "legal" to start a port, even if this 20000euros were paid.

Hi billt, All,


Well, Rogue nor EntilZha or anyone else connected to AOS4.0 development has ever said "AOS4.0 is not going to run on Troika's Amy '06 or ACK's PowerVixxen".

They're not living in a cave with no access to current news and gossip.

So therefore, obviously, they DO have an arrangement to be able to have AOS4.0 run on their MBs.


How'd they get (around) it?

Will any other OS run on their HW???



Therefore, the One-to-One ratio of AOS4.x to MB is a de facto given, which is what Amiga Inc. (and probably Hyperion Entertainment too) want.


I'm just sorry that Alan Redhouse, who was one of the cornerstones of getting Amiga OS back to life isn't a part of this.

Quote:

billt wrote: @yashin71 And thus I interpret things as meaning that 20000euro alone doesn't buy us a "legal" OS4 port. Splitting it into 200 chunks of 100euro each doesn't change that. There's still something additional to deal with, which is still unknown. If I've taken anything wrong, I await correction from Hyperion.

Hi billt,


Not just that, the people contributing would still need to buy the copy of AOS4.0 SW that will be on their computer, another 70 to 100 Euro.
(Otherwise, they only paid for the porting work, and not for the product derived from it.)


Computing is NOT cheap.


It's for Amiga, I have no problem with that expense.