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polka. 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 9:06:27
#361 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@wegster

Quote:
Something a bit more pricewise than a GP32, say up to $400 or so, but the higher it goes, the lower the number of possible purchasers from that segment.


I think although not a desktop system, the GP32/GP2X is a good example since it is somewhat of a freakish thingy, but it is still in a price range where people who haven't tried it before could justify a buy "just for the fun of it". This is exactly the barrier which needs to be broken in order to have any chance for a userbase in the range of a 5-digit number.
How it is done (or _if_ it is done at all) is mainly up to Amiga Inc.'s decision

Quote:
Adam said in irc he's managed to boot OS4 under QEMU previously on an AMD64 box.


W-O-W. I didn't know QEMU was available to emulate PPC on x86 as a host. I don't think it would be too slow for making any reasonable use of it because OS4 is very lightweight.
On x86-64 it would probably be somewhere in the range of an Efika or Powervixxen speedwise. But yes, running QEMU on a PPC-Mac would even make a lot more sense, since you could drop CPU emulation. It could make a nice development system, code in Windows/OS X and let it run in a virtual QEMU box.
I would also buy it immediately. But heck, it seems to be rather difficult to convince Amiga Inc. and Hyperion to actually have some sales, make some money or take actions to widen the userbase.

Last edited by polka. on 16-Jun-2006 at 09:07 AM.

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polka. 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 9:25:24
#362 ]
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Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
IMHO it's not even hypothetical. As I said in post #353 above, it's PowerPC, PPC, period!


Concerning OS4.0, yes, I agree. But concerning AmigaOS beyond 4.0 final, it is not fixed to PPC yet - and that's exactly what I was saying. Given the apparent failure of the concept of license-dongled custom PPC hardware, I would even tend to say that there _will be_ changes in the future (presuming that A. Inc. changes their attitude from "killing AOS" to "at least _trying_ to give it a chance").

Quote:
When it comes to 4.1 and so on ... I am one of those who believe that Amiga Inc will take OS4 back in-house (=away from Hyperion) by activating the nasty "buy-back option" outlined in the contract as soon as "OS4 Final" is released.


I also think that Amiga Inc. will buy back AmigaOS after OS4 final is released. The little money they have to pay for that is just ridiculously small compared to Hyperion's investment of time (>5 years) and money (half a million EUR). How could they ever agree to it?

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wegster 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 9:47:05
#363 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:
@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote:

As we seem to continue to see delays or possible 'no show' on hardware, I'm beginning to like the emulation idea better and better. A 'Test Drive LiveCD' or equivalent, even if running with poor performance, perhaps packaged with SDK, dev docs, UAE, etc..would be a nice demo, and then assuming a low ($$) end or reasonable piece of hardware existed, it could draw some additional users.

Another option would be similar to VMWare, perhaps modifying QEMU to run on PPC Macs, and NOT emulate the PPC CPU, but only A1 hardware (or 'compatible')- the NIC, ide, and gfx...


If it's a way to show off OS4 in a demo you are looking for, here is an other example of how it could be done:
http://www.techonline.com/community/member_company/non_member/virtualab/5751

Pros: No special hardware needs to purchased by the interested user. No struggle with setting up an emulator envireonment on your local computer. Everyone can - in discussions about OS4 such at this, all over the web - simply post a link like this ...

... and your audience can almost in an instant see what you are talking about with their own eyes.

Cons: Would require a serious programming effort, but IMHO it won't even be close to the effort needed to create an x86 live CD, or developing/modifying QEMU to contain UAE-alike features while removing the CPU emulation (a completely new emulator in practice, since QEMU today is a CPU emulator only AFAIK).


Crap. I SO didn't want to prolong this thread, but can't help it.

Yes to all of the above. While I'd hate to see the core OS4 team even think about a full-on x86 port, anything that makes it possible to try, and promote, the OS, without requiring a $1000+ 'buy-in,' is a good thing. From www.qemu.org:
Quote:
* Full system emulation. In this mode, QEMU emulates a full system (for example a PC), including a processor and various peripherials. It can be used to launch different Operating Systems without rebooting the PC or to debug system code.
* User mode emulation (Linux host only). In this mode, QEMU can launch Linux processes compiled for one CPU on another CPU.


Note the 'various peripherals.' Obviously, this is some work, but both Adam and Bernd have mentioned AMD64 3800+ numbers working out to around 400Mhz equivalent, which obviously isn't all that fast, but might be faster than the classic/PPC or perhaps on par with the PV/Efikas. No idea on the completeness of emulation, loss of AltiVec, etc, but it may be 'enough' for a demo of sorts, whether downloadable, or online..or it may make more sense to emulate the NIC, gfx, and uBoot as needed for PPC Macs, and work on allowing direct CPU access, for the speed.

Perhaps someone like Adam or Bernd, or another group, could work on something like the above concurrently with the current remaining OS4 tasks...in the event 'real' hardware shows up first, great, but this would still retain merit as a way to demo, and Hyperion (and/or AInc) could decide to use it for demo/trial purposes only, perhaps removing some features, or perhaps selling it as a 'special' version..either of which is 'a good thing(TM).'

Both Adam and Bernd have mentioned something similar, at the end of the ACK thread on MB (yeah, which has some of the usual crap, not entirely unlike here, keep going towards the end of it..)..maybe he'll give some additional thoughts on this either here on or MB.

For those tired of 'the usual x86 crap,' yeah, I am too...but virtualization or emulation might have a chance to actually make some progress, get OS4 out to people to demo, who may later buy some hardware as well, or let people run OS4, if slowly, on a laptop, or possibly (Bernd seems to think the PPC emulation can be improved, so maybe enough to make it equivalent in time to current A1s under emulation) even see the 'AOS laptop' of sorts...all of which would be _good_ for the platform, nad just possibly, something that AInc even might see as viable..

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wegster 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 9:54:14
#364 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@polka.

Quote:
I think although not a desktop system, the GP32/GP2X is a good example since it is somewhat of a freakish thingy, but it is still in a price range where people who haven't tried it before could justify a buy "just for the fun of it". This is exactly the barrier which needs to be broken in order to have any chance for a userbase in the range of a 5-digit number.


Exactly. I think there's an amount each person has which at or below, they are basically willing to spend it and write it off as 'entertainment expense' of sorts. I've been thinking around $300 or so, as we know people already spend that sort of money on iPods and similar devices...I sincerely think the higher you go beyond that, you're going to get out of the main chuck of the curve and fall off drastically on people willing to pay as the price increases. This isn't talking about the 'hard core' users, or wannabe OS4 users, but the 'general geeks who want a new toy,' and trying to widen the appeal and sales..

Quote:
W-O-W. I didn't know QEMU was available to emulate PPC on x86 as a host. I don't think it would be too slow for making any reasonable use of it because OS4 is very lightweight.
On x86-64 it would probably be somewhere in the range of an Efika or Powervixxen speedwise. But yes, running QEMU on a PPC-Mac would even make a lot more sense, since you could drop CPU emulation. It could make a nice development system, code in Windows/OS X and let it run in a virtual QEMU box.


Yep. Adam was discussing with us a bit the other night, it appears to be able to emulate a G3, but while the x86 allows for passing instructions through to the native CPU now, the PPC port doesn't, so it's still not 'as fast as it could be,' but that could presumably be worked out if someone had the motivation and/or desire..

Even under 'full emulation,' agree with the above- cross-compile, and give devs a 'mini environment' to test in...

Quote:
I would also buy it immediately. But heck, it seems to be rather difficult to convince Amiga Inc. and Hyperion to actually have some sales, make some money or take actions to widen the userbase.


Yep. Well, who knows..at various times, Hyperion have seemed pretty open to ports, and maybe AInc can be convinced, and we'll see something. I know it seems like a pipe dream, but if both AInc and Hyperion want to make some $, maybe it's worth a shot.

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polka. 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 13:45:43
#365 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

Just a random thought about Adam's approach with running OS4 using QEMU:

I remember Adam mentioned the plan to move from UBoot to OpenBIOS when it's stable enough. Is there any connection to the QEMU effort? Can QEMU be made to run using UBoot at all? As far as I read, QEMU uses OpenHackWare on PPC (which is compatible to OF which is used by Genesi for example) and a Bochs-BIOS on x86. Could somebody shed some light into the BIOS issue?
QEMU looks extremely versatile, have a look at the Wikipedia entry. I've only used QEMU for running AROS within Windows XP so far, but there are many more possibilities.

Last edited by polka. on 16-Jun-2006 at 01:46 PM.

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elatour 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 17:21:58
#366 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
And again - x86 has never, is not, and will never be in the scope anyway.

You're just plain wrong on this count. I gave some examples of this, but you're clearly not reading or choosing to ignore the evidence.

Quote:
So this discussion is kind of moot, right?

Again, you're entitled to your opinions, but that's ALL they are at this point, as are mine.

You believe Hyperion will succeed with their embedded market-only strategy, and I believe that they have such a huge uphill battle in that area that there is a strong chance that they won't succeed and should consider other additional future avenues including the desktop, which is what you would need to use to develop for embedded anyway, not to mention that PPC's future on the desktop is dead...Freescale's CEO stated this himself a few months ago, so this is a fact.

Having differences of opinions in what we would like to see or think will happen, makes for having a good conversation on it valid, so it's not moot. End of story.

Last edited by elatour on 16-Jun-2006 at 05:40 PM.

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elatour 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 17:37:53
#367 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@wegster

People have raised the possibility of using QEMU before, however, due to the slowness of emulating PPC on an x86 and the limited support for devices this would relegate it to demo purposes only. Although I would imagine that PPC system emulation on another PPC system such as a PPC Mac would be more acceptable speedwise and might make it usable for other things such as development or more less processor intensive stuff, sadly, the PPC Macs are on their way out. Having said this, at least anyone could pick one up on eBay from the many millions that will probbly be available over the course of the next few years and be able to run AOS on it...which is better than we have now!

However, two other things would still need to be addressed before it could be successful in this area:

1. AInc., and Hyperion would have to allow and the agree to remove the A1 dongle AND/OR create a new one to allow QEMU to run AOS 4. It would have to support the PowerPC PREP or PowerMac implementations though in order to be usable through QEMU's PPC emulation as this is all that QEMU supports at the moment and we know that OS4 does not follow either of these. The other question would be: Is this possible or feasible? If Adam has done it, then I guess it is, so this looks promissing.

2. Would have to be close to free in order to attract anyone into looking at it when considering the above limitations that essentially makes it a demo or a test run. For a more functional system, is using PPC on PPC, it might feasible to charge more money, but how could someone control this?

Although I think it would have limited appeal due to either it being slow on an x86 or having to get soon to be defunct PPC Mac hardware to get decent speed, I still think that any possibility of running OS4 on other hardware even if emulated at this point is better than nothing, which is what we have now. I just wish point 1 above were addressed and easier to deal with than it has been up to this point.

I for one would run out and buy a PPC Mac if I could run AOS4 on it through QEMU!

Last edited by elatour on 16-Jun-2006 at 06:01 PM.
Last edited by elatour on 16-Jun-2006 at 05:53 PM.
Last edited by elatour on 16-Jun-2006 at 05:42 PM.

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adiaux 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 18:44:09
#368 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@elatour

Quote:

elatour wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
And again - x86 has never, is not, and will never be in the scope anyway.

You're just plain wrong on this count. I gave some examples of this, but you're clearly not reading or choosing to ignore the evidence.


Sorry. I did not choose to ignore your evidences, I just didn't think they were relevant in the first place, because no matter what "evidences" of x86 supremacy you bring, x86 is still out of question for Hyperion due to their mandate granted by their contract with Amiga Inc. AFAIK (or IMHO as you may prefer ), Hyperion *CAN'T* do an x86 port even if they wanted to. And they don't even want to do it, hence my statement that the whole x86 discussion is kind of moot. It's not even hypothetical, it's a 0% thing!

Quote:
Quote:
So this discussion is kind of moot, right?

Again, you're entitled to your opinions, but that's ALL they are at this point, as are mine.

You believe Hyperion will succeed with their embedded market-only strategy, and I believe that they have such a huge uphill battle in that area that there is a strong chance that they won't succeed and should consider other additional future avenues including the desktop, which is what you would need to use to develop for embedded anyway, not to mention that PPC's future on the desktop is dead...Freescale's CEO stated this himself a few months ago, so this is a fact.


Actually, I believe they will have a hard time succeeding with *any* strategy (due to many circumstances, their "tragic" relation with Amiga Inc being one). Question is if they really *have* a strategy, except staying alive in a day to day basis to see what happens on the Amiga Inc front ...

But all that aside - YES, I *do* actually believe that there will be *far more* money (and much higher and faster returns on invested capital and efforts) in a hypothetical Efika+OS4+Hollywood combo product *ALONE*, than there can *ever* be in an attempt to challange Microsoft Windows on the desktop market (and just as a clarification - with "desktop", I don't mean Workbench or Ambient, I mean the whole package of applications making it worth anything).

Amiga does not have Microsoft Office, The Adobe/Macromedia applications, modern Internet and connectivity applications, financial and accounting applications, modern video applications, modern audio applications, in fact - the Amiga does not have *any* desktop applications that anoyne outside this little community would consider equally good (or preferrably *better*) than those available on Windows. MacOS has many of them, and has a yearly budget of a small country to use for development and marketing efforts, but they are *still* struggling a hundred steps behind Windows on every single point of measure. And MacOS has *not* "taken a break" for 10+ years in development either, but the Amiga has, and that clock is still ticking.

Tell me, where does Amiga fit in here? Can't you see that turning the Amiga platform into a desktop option that desktop users of today actually would *consider* would take an effort similar to putting man on March, and it would probably take as long time as well?

(I just remember some statement made by Porter, who sometimes made analogies from military warfare and applied them to marketing; it went something like "you should not even consider a frontal attack on a competitor unless you have at least three times the resources at hand". I wonder what three times Microsoft's resources would be? And throw Apples resources on top of that, for they won't sit still either. And then it would require a huge bunch of money to "bribe" Adobe/Macromedia and others to port their applications that are just as *essential* as they are *world standards*. And all that just to get to the *starting line* on the running track. Problem is, everyone else in the race has run a couple of laps already. In fact, they have been running the race *constantly* and are now *ten years* ahead, while Amiga has been a bystander during that whole time.)

Quote:
Having differences of opinions in what we would like to see or think will happen, makes for having a good conversation on it valid, so it's not moot. End of story.


Different opinions rule!

I stand by my opinion that desktop hardware is not relevant for OS4, other than for developers of embedded OS4 software and the few hundreds of enthusiasts/"power-users" ("Every developer needs a desktop" - wasn't that a blog written by someone? ).

The Pegasos ODW (and maybe even the OSW to some extent) is perfect for that, and no real effort is required. The hardware is here, and rumours say that OS4 is already running on it. If those rumours are false, porting OS4 to the Genesi HAL/OF will be a piece of cake and quite effortless.

There is no real problem with hardware for OS4. It's not the hardware that is the problem in OS4's case, it's other things, and those things affects *any* hardware, including any x86 option you can think of. It's only that the x86 is not needed, nor wanted.

Last edited by takemehomegrandma on 16-Jun-2006 at 10:50 PM.

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adiaux 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 18:45:24
#369 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@wegster

Thanks for the info about QEMU.

Guess I learned something today too ...

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elatour 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 3:56:53
#370 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
Hyperion *CAN'T* do an x86 port even if they wanted to. And they don't even want to do it, hence my statement that the whole x86 discussion is kind of moot. It's not even hypothetical, it's a 0% thing!

That's just it. They only asked for a license to do a PPC port because they were never even remotely interested in doing an x86 port. That does not mean however, that they could not get one from AInc if so inclined. What we are discussing here is how we feel about their stuburness to even consider a port in the future, ever, and the reasons given, which were pretty lame thus far, IMHO. On a side note, we're also discussing other possibilties for an x86 port whether through Hyperion or not, and what it might bring to the table. This is not so dissimilar from the many discussions about getting this thing to run on ANY available hardware at the moment.

Quote:
But all that aside - YES, I *do* actually believe that there will be *far more* money (and much higher and faster returns on invested capital and efforts) in a hypothetical Efika+OS4+Hollywood combo product *ALONE*, than there can *ever* be in an attempt to challange Microsoft Windows on the desktop market (and just as a clarification - with "desktop", I don't mean Workbench or Ambient, I mean the whole package of applications making it worth anything).

I agree with you there MIGHT be more money to be made on the embedded front. However, where I disagree with you is whether they should go in this direction ONLY and NEVER consider a backup plan for a desktop (for which x86 if the only realistic option left), not to take over the world, but just to attract more people from different angles, thereby indirectly openning ther door for more programmers for the platform as whole. More applications for the desktop means more applications for an embedded market aswell, so this would bring many sinergies into play.

Quote:
MacOS has many of them, and has a yearly budget of a small country to use for development and marketing efforts, but they are *still* struggling a hundred steps behind Windows on every single point of measure. And MacOS has *not* "taken a break" for 10+ years in development either, but the Amiga has, and that clock is still ticking.

True enough, but with their move over to x86 now coupled with the ability to run at near native performance Windows through various virtualizaion products will most than likely lead to increased sales for the next few years. You might disagree, but you just watch for year-end results for 2006 and you'll more than likely see a huge overall increase in their desktop market, specially if they come out with an x86-based PowerBook.

Quote:
And all that just to get to the *starting line* on the running track. Problem is, everyone else in the race has run a couple of laps already. In fact, they have been running the race *constantly* and are now *ten years* ahead, while Amiga has been a bystander during that whole time.)

Problem is that this is not much different in the embedded market, with even more OSes that are far more adept at what they do in their space than AOS4 is and will be for a long time to come.

The x86 IS wanted and needed by many here. Just not by you. And the PPC as a desktop option for the desktop having a very limited lifespan and on being life support is not MY opinion, it's a fact, as stated recently by Freescale's CEO.

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 7:43:01
#371 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
But all that aside - YES, I *do* actually believe that there will be *far more* money (and much higher and faster returns on invested capital and efforts) in a hypothetical Efika+OS4+Hollywood combo product *ALONE*, than there can *ever* be in an attempt to challange Microsoft Windows on the desktop market (and just as a clarification - with "desktop", I don't mean Workbench or Ambient, I mean the whole package of applications making it worth anything).



Agh!! This is what makes me slap my forhead and go DOH!

Lets look at this:
Quote:
there will be *far more* money...in a hypothetical Efika+OS4+Hollywood combo product *ALONE*, than there can *ever* be in an attempt to challange Microsoft Windows on the desktop market


OK this is what I don't get.. People think just because the board has PPC instead of X86 they "magically" are no longer competing in the "computer market" that WINDOWS dominates. Why?

How is Efika+OS4+Hollywood going to "not" compete with Windows+x86+PowerPoint?? Just because it's PPC?

Look at it Efika+OS4+Hollywood ..... ok how would x86+OS4+Hollywood be ANY different? How come that combo "competes" with "Windows+x86+PowerPoint" but the one with Efika doesn't? The ONLY difference I can ACTUALLY see is that "x86+OS4+Hollywood" would be CHEAPER than "Efika+OS4+Hollywood".

This "you'll be competing against Windows if you go X86 argument" is 100% BS! If you are making an OS that is going to do ANY of the things that Windows does than YOU ARE competing with them. No matter what processor you are running. You're just doing it with MORE expense. Apple realized this.

AmigaHeretic

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falemagn 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 11:24:57
#372 ]
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Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@AmigaHeretic

Very well put, but unfortunately it seems that it doesn't matter how well, or how loud, or how many times one counterarguments it, this very same argument gets reashed every time the topic arises.

Last edited by falemagn on 17-Jun-2006 at 11:25 AM.

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adiaux 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 11:40:00
#373 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@elatour

Quote:

elatour wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

That's just it. They only asked for a license to do a PPC port because they were never even remotely interested in doing an x86 port. That does not mean however, that they could not get one from AInc if so inclined.


Actually, I think not. But then I don't know if it's me that is overly negative in this regard, or if it's you that is overly positive.

Quote:
Problem is that this is not much different in the embedded market, with even more OSes that are far more adept at what they do in their space than AOS4 is and will be for a long time to come.


The "embedded market" (a complete flora av "markets" really, it's more about specific applications then, which are *infinite*) is *completely* different, which can be both a blessing and a curse. One thing is for sure, it will be a curse if you take the desktop "think" and apply it on embedded right off. You can't do that, it requires a completely different approach and strategy, and a completely different way of operation. The customers may not be the final customers, and the final customers may not be the end-users (I know, that goes for the desktop too, but even more here). What they are looking for is not a processor or an operating system; the only important thing is that a specified job gets done according to the outlined specifications. Like having (just to return to Hollywood) a set of interactive multimedia information screens in a train museum, a sales promotion screen in a toy store (interactive or not), or an infotainment system in aircrafts or automobiles. Neither the customer nor the end-user cares the slightest about x86, WindowsCE, PowerPoint or that kind of stuff in this context. There is a job that needs to be done, and the result is the only important thing.

Quote:
The x86 IS wanted and needed by many here. Just not by you.


Yet it will never happen, so discussions about this issue is kind of ... moot. (Sorry )

Look, I have nothing against x86. I don't even have anything against Windows. In fact, I have been an active Windows/x86 user since 1996; that's a decade now. I am actually typing this very text on one of my Wintel boxes (I have several, including a laptop). Without Windows and without x86, I couldn't work, hence I couldn't live without them. The same goes for a vast majority of people depending on desktop computers for there living ...

... And play. I am just about to buy a new PC because my old trustworthy Athlon 2800 with 512MB Ram and GeForce 5900 is a pain in the ass to play Oblivion on, and I have realized it's time for a general step-up to a new generation of hardware.

So I am *not* one of those nerdy notorious x86 haters or anything like that, rather the opposite actually ...

It's just that I don't see the relevance for any Amiga OS in that context. No matter how many x86 processors you put in the case, on an Amiga desktop I would *never* be able to do the work I need my desktop for, hence I could *never* depend on AmigaOS desktop for my living. And that's not just me. Amiga has had no serious place in the desktop market since 1989 or so, if it *ever* had a serious place. It can never catch up, and the effort to migrate to yet a new CPU architecture will be just as enormous as the previous (after quite a few *years* now, OS4 is *finally* fulfilling its migration to PPC. Wasn't the JIT compiler released just recently for instance?)

Quote:
And the PPC as a desktop option for the desktop having a very limited lifespan and on being life support is not MY opinion, it's a fact, as stated recently by Freescale's CEO.


Which really is no problem, since OS4's lifespan as a desktop OS is 0 (zero) in the 2006 real-life world and its requirements for a desktop system. OS4 is not and can not be a desktop OS that is the slightest competitive in 2006.

And please note - this fact has nothing to do with processors!

There *is* a good desktop system perfectly suitable for OS4, the Pegasos ODW. In fact, that is *more than enough* for OS4, and OS4 will never outgrow it so it doesn't even have to be evolved a lot processor-wise. It will be perfect as a develoers desktop as well as a system for nostalgia hobby desktop users. And as far as I can tell - it is and will be the only alternative.

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adiaux 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 12:57:30
#374 ]
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Joined: 1-Jun-2006
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From: Unknown

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:
How is Efika+OS4+Hollywood going to "not" compete with Windows+x86+PowerPoint?? Just because it's PPC?


No, not at all. Processors and operating systems has nothing to do with it. You just can't apply the desktop market think on this one, that's all. This is a completely different thing!

One day comes a guy knocking on the door to the train museum, saying "hey, wouldn't it be nice to replace those dull static information signs you have in your display area with something dynamic and moving, and a possibility for the visitor to dig down in whatever in-depth details he might be interested in? It will look like this or this, whatever you prefer, we are very flexible when it comes to the appearance of our devices, and eager to follow your wishes. Then I offer to set up and manage a project where we digitize all current static information and package it in a thrilling multimedia envireonment. Maybe put it online at the same time? We will take care of everything, the only thing you will have to care about is whether you want to make a one-time payment and take care of any update and modifications yourselves (naturally we offer a way of doing that if you desire), or simply pay a much smaller one-time fee at the beginning, and then a very small monthly subscription fee that includes all upgrades, modifications and service you will ever need? Your dull museum will come alive. News about this upgrade and major overhaul may perhaps even be worth mentioning? We can probably make news about this appear in national press together with some background info about the museum, and how exciting children thinks old trains are, and your museum may actually be considered as an option by some when families makes their vacation and travelling plans for this years summer. Perhaps your visitor number will increase by 20% compared to last year? And we will take care of everything! We know this technology, and you know your trains. Stick to your trains, and let us handle the rest.". Then he says: "Hell yes, hit me with that!", and x86, windows and powerpoint has not even crossed his mind. And it won't either, cause he cares just as much about that as he cared what processor and operating system was in his last TV he bought.

That's the difference.

(Maybe the day after, another guy walks into his office with an alternative plan, and then there might be some competition. But I actually think an Efika+OS4+Hollywood would do quite fine in such competition ).

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adiaux 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 13:14:41
#375 ]
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Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@AmigaHeretic & falemagn

Quote:
This "you'll be competing against Windows if you go X86 argument" is 100% BS! If you are making an OS that is going to do ANY of the things that Windows does than YOU ARE competing with them. No matter what processor you are running. You're just doing it with MORE expense. Apple realized this.


If you are in the *desktop* market, you will be competing head-on to Windows. And this *no matter* the processor; be it x86, PPC, mips, transmeta, or whatever. Apple are in the desktop market, and they competed with Windows even *before* they made their x86 decision. But not because of the processor, but because of their target market. Amiga has no place there. It can't compete (which is why I think there the Amiga has no need for desktop-class CPU's).

Even if Windows (in various incarnations) are available *outside* the general desktop market, like Linux, BSD and others (including the Amiga?), it's not the same. A totally different logic applies than the desktop logic. Focus is moved away from CPU and OS, over to the bottom line of the benefits and specifications of the deal you are offering. The desktop is general, this is custom. The desktop is 100% transparent, this is almost totally opaque (thanks to its custom characteristics).

So yes, I definitely believes Amiga has a chance outside the desktop market, but you have to think and act completely different than everyone seems to be doing now. It's a different game altogether, as I at least *tried* to picture with my little train museum above.

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 19:45:16
#376 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@takemehomegrandma

Just looking at your Train kiosk idea here's what I see....


Following the first link I get this:

Quote:
The Kiosk Components
Touchscreen or Keyboard
Printer
Card Reader
PC System
Power Supply
Peripherals (WIFI)


Efika and OS4 (morphOS) are far behind a Windows+x86 device in things like Touchscreen drivers, WIFI device support, Printer support. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 cards supported by "unofficial drivers", but different devices that may need to be swapped out during the life of the Kiosk, not to mention more choices in devices means less cost.

Which leads me to:

Quote:
We will take care of everything, the only thing you will have to care about is whether you want to make a one-time payment and take care of any update and modifications yourselves


1st Option: If they choose the option " take care of any update and modifications yourselves". So is the Museum going to hire or train one of their IT guys just to learn how to use this new hardware? What if the printer dies and they have go buy a new one, who knows how to install the drivers, who knows where to even get drivers for this OS? Same with WFI, what if that card goes out.?
Are they stuck using a "hacked" WIFI driver that only works with certain cards, or is there a plan to get official hardware drivers from all the companies out there (like windows has) for AmigaOS4 before it is released? 3rd part driver support could be a HUGE issue for a company trying to support an Efika+AOS device.

OR

2nd option: "We will take care of everything." Who's we? I assume an Amiga company selling Kiosks. So, in order for Efika+AOS4 to succeed there needs to be a network of trained Amiga support people to service all the devices? Again, with Windows+X86 there's support people everywhere.

How can you expect to sell enough devices to to make money (1000s maybe 10,000s of 1000s of devices) in the embedded market and not have PEOPLE around the world that can work on, service, or EVEN replace cards and install drivers?


Even if the costs of Efika+AOS4 we significantly low enough to make a company look away from Windows+X86, who are they going to have to support it? Maybe a company that wanted just a couple of kiosk in one town where the Kiosk manufacturer was locted, Ok, I'll buy that. But what if they need kiosks in multiple cities or countries? Is this Amiga Kiosk company going to have the man power and money to fly their technicians around the world fixing these things? Support costs alone would BE huge compared with having a contract with a local tech support firm that goes out to the site for you.

Again, it MIGHT work in a very small location with a few kiosks, but where is the money in 5 or 6 machines? Motherboard and OS price differences are NOTHING compared with costs associated with tech support.


1. Drivers
2. Tech Support people
Are just a couple of HUGE obsticales to overcome.

I just don't think Kiosks would be a place you can just jump into from out of nowhere like AOS4 (or morphOS) would and make money.


Maybe an embedded device like a Palm type device for AOS4? But again you need to sell thousands to make real money. Who at the other end of the 800 tech support number is going to be trained in using AOS4 and supporting it? There needs to be service centers where you can have the device sent to in order to fix certain things right?

I can only assume if a company is going into the "embedded" market that they already have in place a "training program" to train techs around the world on the use of the OS, right Hyperion?


Anyway, theses are just a FEW of the reason I think it is rediculous to think you can just JUMP into the embedded market and be succesful. It's the same for linux when it only had 1000 user base. What company in their right mind would use an OS with maybe 1000 people in the WORLD that know how to use it? When linux had a 1,000,000 users it was still hard for companies to expect to use it. Why? Because you need people to support, program for it, and FIX it.


That's what AmigaOS and MorphOS are really missing. People.

Bill Buck knows this and this is why he had to start supporting "real" oses on the hardware he sells.

Takle the user market first. When we have enough users, then maybe a companies would take us seriously.


X86 = More Users. Period.

More users is the only place to start from and grow from.

AmigaHeretic

Last edited by AmigaHeretic on 17-Jun-2006 at 08:13 PM.

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wegster 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 20:30:50
#377 ]
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Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@takemehomegrandma
No arugments on AOS can't be used for real life work, agree completely. I won't say 'never,' as you have, but it would require some significant work and time, even to be marginal, and still have no 'mass appeal.'

Quote:
There *is* a good desktop system perfectly suitable for OS4, the Pegasos ODW. In fact, that is *more than enough* for OS4, and OS4 will never outgrow it so it doesn't even have to be evolved a lot processor-wise. It will be perfect as a develoers desktop as well as a system for nostalgia hobby desktop users. And as far as I can tell - it is and will be the only alternative.

AFAIK, Peg2s are no longer being made, which would make this a moot point. In the event the OSW comes about, OS4 still isn't SMP. Saying 'Genesi is the only hardware' is a stretch, even in light of some of it not being produced any longer (again, AFAIK, have asked some MOS guys, who seemed to confirm this..?). There are far more PPC Mac Minis out there, as well as several others (yes, like the 'odd' STB Troika board, but if it's available and packaged as a system, who cares about it's form factor much?), which would provide more than enough (in some cases, used) boards. For the same reasons you give for AOS not having any real desktop appeal outside of a very small niche, new (vs used and available) desktop hardware isn't specifically needed. A different issue for embedded, but then that hardware is more likely to be supplied/investigated by Hyperion, and be of possibly limited interest to most interested in OS4 as a desktop (IOW, most of AW members)..

I agree in that something like the Efika(2) may be the most sensical immediate target platform, but just like you believe there is little chance in seeing AInc agreeing to an x86 port, I believe there's even less of a chance of seeing AInc agree to a port to Genesi hardware, so regardless of how many might want it, or think it 'makes sense,' it becomes a moot point.

The closest thing to the Efika is the PowerVixxen, which obviously no one (here) knows it's real status, but assuming it becomes available, the next iteration could possibly be standalone entirely (meaning on 'breakout box or specail breakout cables required for standalone use), but obviously, we'll have to see on that.

I think you're right in that something like the Peg2 would suffice on the desktop for some time, I just don't believe licensing will ever happen there.

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wegster 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 20:40:17
#378 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:
Efika and OS4 (morphOS) are far behind a Windows+x86 device in things like Touchscreen drivers, WIFI device support, Printer support. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 cards supported by "unofficial drivers", but different devices that may need to be swapped out during the life of the Kiosk, not to mention more choices in devices means less cost.


Drivers, or having multiple drivers, is irrelevant when you're selling a solution, rather than an 'expandable PC.' Companies do it everywhere, from whatever OSes may be runnig on MP3 players, STBs, the Google Search Appliance, mail/virus appliances, etc...even EMC hardware runs a modified version of Linux. As TMHG said, NO ONE CARES. The need is to provide a solution to some problem, as an appliance/black box solution. As long as it performs the job it's needed to, in a cost efficient manner, the rest is irrelevant (with respect to OS, drivers, etc).

Support is obviously an issue, but not to the extent that you make out to be. Most companies provide a single point of support themselves, rather than through distribution networks. Obviously, Hyperion would have to get something going to handle that (post sales support, someone able to meet customers and gauge requirements, any additional work, etc.), but that's not entirely out of the scope of possibility, and becomes more doable in the event of generating some positive cash flow as a result of it..

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 21:45:12
#379 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@wegster

Quote:
Most companies provide a single point of support themselves, rather than through distribution networks.



So when a component goes out or software gets screwed up, who is going to fix it is my question I guess?

In the case of the link provided and sort of what I was responding to, they offer 8-24 hour stand by service.

It's a no brainer that if you are going to sell kiosks in any quantity you would need a network of support people. Kiosks need to be serviced. You either fly someone out from your location or you contract with someone in the area to do support.

I don't know what the "embedded" market is that AOS4 is being aimed at. I just think "Kiosks" involves a lot more "structure" than the Amiga community has in terms of people across the globe. Aside from any software issues having to do with where AOS is at for drivers or anything. Any 3rd party company (that isn't run by Amigans) but is considering using AmigaOS for a Kiosk has to think "who's gonna be there to support this when there are issues? What that going to cost to train people across our market?"


It's all speculation as to what "embedded" in regards to AOS4. In this instance, Kiosks, a lot of work would need to be done in realms other than just Software and hardware. We're still in the stage of even finding hardware so, to me at least, kiosks would seem years and years off.

AmigaHeretic

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adiaux 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 17-Jun-2006 22:10:22
#380 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

Following the first link I get this:

...



Look, don't read too much into that linked page; it was mostly the concept pictures I wanted you to see.

BTW, in the train museum case (which was only a case I brainstormed up while I was writing, so don't analyze it too much in detail ), you could manage with a *very* basic setup, and I am absolutely positive it could be done right now, using nothing but what we have at hand at this very moment. And if you need additional drivers for some "exotic" feature - no big deal; if there are money to be made, there are money available for investments. At least for those who can get out of their narrow-headed hobby mentality ...

Regarding what you wrote as an answer to the "payment options", etc, etc - please don't read anything into that, it was only some kind of example, and the *point* was to illustrate that you are *not* selling an Efika with an exotic OS and a SW application that no-one has ever heard of, in direct competition with an x86 mobo + windows CE + powerpoint, for $299. You are not selling hardware, and you are not selling software. What you are selling is a service, a *solution*, for *ten times* that money (or *a hundred* times).

That is why the Efika+OS4+Hollywood is *not* in direct competition with any x86 device with whatever OS ...

(There is not much that can't be done in this field (the SCALA-field) using Efika+OS4+Hollywood. IMHO, Hollywood is more than Powerpoint and SCALA combined. And that combo is only *one* combination, *one* area where you could make business using OS4. There are many others. Maybe we should try to identify as many "embedded" areas of use as possible? How about a poll? Would be far more useful than any "port to x86" thread ... )

Last edited by takemehomegrandma on 17-Jun-2006 at 10:10 PM.

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