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DAX 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 18-Jan-2010 18:42:07
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@saimo
I meant a layer for UAE.

Don't get me wrong, I'm an emulation freak (with a dedicated PC connected to a 15Khz TV/monitor) I don't mind to install stuff and applications such as yours or ChrisH's RunInUAE (I beta tested the latter) but I believe that casual Amigans would be thrilled to just toss in an original floppy (with a cat weasel connected drive) double click it and have the system transparently deliver what he expects (no installations or settings or anything).

P.S.
Yes I mentioned the X1000 thinking at AGA games, but also at the fact that recently LCD monitors don't cope too well with native 320x256 resolutions (while old CRTs that do are disappearing) hence the need for scaling, interpolation etc. All things that the X1000 will handle well.

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ChrisH 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 18-Jan-2010 19:18:09
#62 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@DAX
I looked at patching Workbench/OS4, to make RunInUAE totally transparent, but at the moment it does not appear to be possible (without completely replacing Workbench!). Maybe they can modify Workbench to allow alternative 68k emulation solutions (rather than just Petunia as we have now).

Last edited by ChrisH on 18-Jan-2010 at 07:19 PM.

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 18-Jan-2010 19:26:04
#63 ]
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Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, I'm an emulation freak (with a dedicated PC connected to a 15Khz TV/monitor) I don't mind to install stuff and applications such as yours or ChrisH's RunInUAE (I beta tested the latter) but I believe that casual Amigans would be thrilled to just toss in an original floppy (with a cat weasel connected drive) double click it and have the system transparently deliver what he expects (no installations or settings or anything).

Ah, sure but... that's quite simply... impossible
Many fail to see this, but it doesn't matter the emulator, it doesn't matter the layer, but no single configuration will suit all the classic software for the simple reason that there were multiple Amiga "configurations" and software used to access hardware and firmware directly. In fact, there is no classic Amiga able to run all the classic software without specific tweaking (and it's not rare that even tweaking can get you only so far).
The closest solution to what you suggest is having, besides UAE and the layer, a database of configurations: but, even then, the layer could have problems with selecting automatically the right configuration since the same software could come in a variety of shapes (think of cracked games, for example) and, more importantly, it's pretty hopeless to think that such database can cover all the software ever produced. Ever wondered why solutions like Lemonade or Amiga Forever exist? Now you know the answer
Of course, a community-wide project could produce a reasonably-sized database, but asking Hyperion to do such a massive job is way too much

Last edited by saimo on 19-Jan-2010 at 08:41 AM.

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ChrisH 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 18-Jan-2010 20:01:57
#64 ]
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Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@saimo Quote:
but asking Hyperion to do such a massive job is way too much

If Hyperion add "hooks" into OS4 to make it possible, then we can do the rest . Eventually a good solution could become a 3rd-party contribution to OS4 (or even standard!). And as Hyperion have the rights to OS3.x, they can include the required Workbench & Kickstart images with OS4, so no installation issues or need for Amiga Forever CD.

Last edited by ChrisH on 18-Jan-2010 at 08:03 PM.

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 8:53:01
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Quote:
If Hyperion add "hooks" into OS4 to make it possible, then we can do the rest .

I can't see what hooks are needed: there is already all that the layer needs. To improve the integration more, things must be improved on the emulator side (f.ex., a very small thing would be having the possibility of telling UAE to use a borderless window, so that classic applications that use windows would be shown directly on the Workbench in just their own window - it would be even better if UAE accepted a hotkey to toggle the window border).

Quote:
And as Hyperion have the rights to OS3.x, they can include the required Workbench & Kickstart images with OS4, so no installation issues or need for Amiga Forever CD.

Yes, this would be good.

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vox 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 10:48:40
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@saimo

How many configs there can be?

An A500 KS 1.3 for compatibility
An A1200 KS 3.1 for AGA compatibility
An 020/030 KS 3.1 / CGX PPC for speed
An CD32 for gaming

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 10:59:48
#67 ]
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Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@vox

It would be nice if it was that easy

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pavlor 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 11:23:55
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@vox

I use only 3 configurations in WinUAE:
1) A500, OCS, 512 kB Chip, 512 kB Fast, KS 1.3 - for disk based games
2) 68020, AGA, 2 MB Chip, 4 MB Fast, KS 3.1 - for WHDLoad and HD based games
3) 68040, RTG, 16 MB GFX RAM, 256 MB Fast RAM, OS 3.9 - for applications and work

Option 2) is enough for most of my needs (if we talk about old games).

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 11:32:55
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@vox & pavlor

DAX was talking about being able to run *any* classic software: you can be sure that those few configurations would not be sufficient (nor optimal, and optimization would matter a lot on not very powerful boards).

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pavlor 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 11:37:51
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@saimo

Quote:
(nor optimal, and optimization would matter a lot on not very powerful boards)


Life is much easier, if you have computer 10 times faster than SAM...

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 11:41:04
#71 ]
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Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@pavlor

So what, we don't live in ideal world: not everybody will own an X1000
(And, anyway, I wouldn'l like the idea of power being wasted.)
That said, let's not forget that performance is only a secondary point. The first is compatibility.

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DAX 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 11:45:19
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@saimo
I don't see the situation "that" tragic, the whole I dea is not about entering the guinness world records for the biggest number of supported software configurations.

Also I would't call "lame" a solution that runs very well 99% of the time, just because there are sporadic cases where it won't work.

While having a discreet config file for the entire software base (MAME style) is rather pointless, it would be very good for the smaller amount of peculiar cases.

Let me explain:

I have a single config in UAE (yes UAE for SAM) to run A500 games and the only ones that won't load are due to our version of UAE being old (ie: when our version was the "actual" Windows version -1.0 I seem to recall- those games did not load there either, and they load today thanks to the much updated current version of WinUAE) and in fact, on WinUAE 2.0 I have configs similar to what Vox describes and I have to tell you that Yes, it is (almost)that simple.

My idea is to have something similar to what Vox suggest "as a regular rule of thumb", and then have a utility in prefs (similar to our present UAE GUI) to create custom profiles for specific apps which stores these profiles in a common database (which can be updated and maintained at OS4 depot).

Customers would be happy from the get go 95% of the time and that 5% will be resolved by custom configs.

Eventually the database for that smaller amount of apps, will grow to the point where everybody will be happy.

Besides asking more elegant "Amiga compatibility" on" Amiga" doesn't seem to be that far fetched doesn't it?

P.S.
Question: if I get a catweasel and put in an original A500 floppy, there is no way actually to instruct Aos4.x, to run it in UAE instead of Petunia (same happens if you mount an ADF in a virtual floppy drive).
Is this a Workbench problem or UAE problem?

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pavlor 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 11:46:09
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@saimo

Quote:
That said, let's not forget that performance is only a secondary point. The first is compatibility.


That is why I use WHDLoad - I have not found any WHDLoad installed game not working with my usual configuration ( 2) )

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pavlor 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 11:50:43
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:
Question: if I get a catweasel and put in an original A500 floppy, there is no way actually to instruct Aos4.x, to run it in UAE instead of Petunia (same happens if you mount an ADF in a virtual floppy drive).


There is answer: post 11 (TetiSoft)

I tried it...

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DAX 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 12:14:44
#75 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@pavlor
That is why I asked for Hyperion involvement as they shoud provide the necessary changes.

Let's face it guys, I have RunInUae already working with ADF and WHDLoad, the only thing missing are original floppies.
Now ask yourself: is there any kind of modern Amiga OS 4.1 Update1 software (or in the future for AmigaOS 4.2/.3/5.0 etc.) that runs on floppies?

Since we already know that whenever a floppy is used we are talking legacy applications, Hyperion should make it so that whenever a floppy is run (either virtual or phisical) the system will choose between Petunia or UAE based on a small database of applications that are known to work better with Petunia (as this list is is smaller, only OS legal apps that don't perform low level bangs on the OCS/AGA/RTG chipsets will work better on Petunia).
If what you are trying to load it's not in that database, then RunInUae (or similar) takes over and we're done.

This "choice" step on a fast machine (such as the X1000) would be lightning fast and totally trasparent to the end user who would rest assured that when he purchases the X1000 he will be able to run any kind of Amiga Software out of the box, no questions asked (just add a floppy to your system, in the future Amigakit X1000 configuration page ).

Last edited by DAX on 19-Jan-2010 at 12:17 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 12:30:31
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@DAX

Floppy? I think ADF is much better option... I use it even on my old A1200 (I can have up to 12 "virtual" FDD with the help of HFMounter)!

...on the other side... why not.

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ChrisH 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 13:05:52
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@saimo Quote:
I can't see what hooks are needed: there is already all that the layer needs.

I mean that it would be nice that when I double-click on a 68k app, OS4 *could* run that inside E-UAE, instead of using Petunia.

RunInUAE can already *almost* do that, but it lacks the ability for to intercept Workbench running an executable. Only thanks to a trick is it able to intercept Workbench for WHDLoad & JOTD JST games (and ADFs).

Last edited by ChrisH on 19-Jan-2010 at 01:08 PM.

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DAX 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 13:08:49
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@pavlor
For ADF and WHDLoad we already have no problems at all today (aside from our version of UAE being old).

Indeed I use ADFs myself, but as a collector of boxed games too, I sometime like to use my original disks (many calssic freaks can't leave without them too) and I think it would represent a great selling point for customers that stayed "classic" only up until now.

Just a thought, I myself am pretty happy as is right now

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pavlor 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 13:12:16
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

If it runs WHDLoad installed games without problems, then there left not so many things to do. Most of my favorite games can be installed with WHDLoad. For the rest I have my own scripts.

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saimo 
Re: glUAE: running classic software on AOS4
Posted on 19-Jan-2010 13:24:57
#80 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2450
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:
I don't see the situation "that" tragic, the whole I dea is not about entering the guinness world records for the biggest number of supported software configurations.

Also I would't call "lame" a solution that runs very well 99% of the time, just because there are sporadic cases where it won't work.

While having a discreet config file for the entire software base (MAME style) is rather pointless, it would be very good for the smaller amount of peculiar cases.

I think you're severely underestimating the percentage of the software that would work and completely forgetting about *how* it would work.
That aside, do you think it would be a good thing if Hyperion spent time and energies (i.e. money) to provide a solution that does not always work? Moveover, a solution that is supposed to be publicized as a strong selling point (think about how counterproductive this could be)?

Quote:
My idea is to have something similar to what Vox suggest "as a regular rule of thumb", and then have a utility in prefs (similar to our present UAE GUI) to create custom profiles for specific apps which stores these profiles in a common database (which can be updated and maintained at OS4 depot).

You said it yourself: UAE GUI. You're asking for something that belongs to the emulator, not the OS.

Quote:
Besides asking more elegant "Amiga compatibility" on" Amiga" doesn't seem to be that far fetched doesn't it?

I haven't tried RunInUAE nor RunADF, but can I ask what is not elegant about glUAE (after all, this is glUAE's thread)?

Quote:
Question: if I get a catweasel and put in an original A500 floppy, there is no way actually to instruct Aos4.x, to run it in UAE instead of Petunia (same happens if you mount an ADF in a virtual floppy drive).
Is this a Workbench problem or UAE problem?

Well, first of all, Petunia only emulates the M68k CPU, so it has nothing to do with floppies nor any other part of the classic hardware.

Then, why would there be no way? If the floppy is DOS-formatted, glUAE could handle it (f.ex. something like glUAE_LA FD0: would do the job); if it isn't... mmm... maybe there is no problem as well, thanks to the "filesystem2" directive of UAE - if it can't be used to mount non-DOS volumes, then the problem is definitely with UAE, not the OS.

But I can see what you're thinking
You're thinking of double-clicking floppy icons on the WB and getting the software stored on them to run, right? In that case, all Hyperion would need to do is allowing to specify a default tool also for volumes (indeed, this is a request I wanted to make a long time ago for drawers, but then I found that changing the drawer icon type to "project" does the trick, so I never asked for that). A very little thing. The rest can be easily handled by glUAE (or your preferred layer of choice) and UAE.

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