@Carl-S

Some valid points regarding x86. At the beginning of this year we had an amazing thread with Dave Haynie who basically shared your view that AmigaOS should be ported to x86. Instead, AmigaOS is currently being locked in a situation where small basement projects have to hand-solder custom PPC boards and when they have finally got it working, they have to worry to get a license for it (otherwise, AOS can't be ported to their hardware). Well, at Amiwest, you might have had a look at a first outcome of 1 1/2 years - a board which is hardly ever going to work. Heck, we can't even have AmigaOS ported to existing PPC platforms like PPC Macs or the Pegasos 2 from bplan. I know, this situation might look a bit weird from the outside or for new people interested in the Amiga and that exactly is the point: You won't find many non-hardcore old-time Amigans who would spend something like $1000 on hardware that is extremely slow compared to standard off-the-shelf x86 solutions. And pointing to the "Linux style support issues" is also flawed logic: You could just pick one or two x86-mainboards, define some standard components and you would be done. No need to support 12745 different chipsets.

New hardware and an "OS4 final" has been promised for a long time now and the phrase "around the corner" of HyperionMP sounds just too familiar to me (OS4/new hardware was actually already announced for last year's Christmas ) - so better take it with a grain of salt.

Tigger wrote:
Quote:

@Hyperionmp Quote: Hyperionmp wrote: @Carl-S Carl, the hardware situation is being addressed in short order by Hyperion. Which board will be addressing this situation in a short order?

I would also be interested in an answer to that question. I also hope that the legal battles between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion have been sorted out by now.

edit: just found this part from Dave & thought it was fitting:

hazydave wrote:
Quote:

Carl, RJ, Dale, Mike Sinz, Randell Jesup, Chris Green, Spenser Shanson, Greg Berlin, George Robbins, Joe Augenbraun, Jeff Porter, Pete Cherna, Ed Hepler, Dave Needle, etc.... all these folks made the Amiga what you all love because of the excitement of doing something new. Yes -- it's very true that, in various ways, that was no longer possible and we went on and tried to do something new in different ways: Carl's done REBOL, RJ and Dave did the "Handy" (Atari Lynx) and 3DO, Joe did WorldGate and now Home Robotics, Jeff and Pete did Scala, I've done several statups, etc. You don't change the world looking backwards too much. My point about the new Amiga, other than the business stuff, is really, what IS compelling? Difference just for difference sake, even if it's way slower and way more expensive than commodity hardware? If that's your answer, fine, but I really don't get it. -Dave

Last edited by hatschi on 23-Oct-2006 at 09:34 AM.
Last edited by hatschi on 23-Oct-2006 at 09:26 AM.

@Carl-S
Well, there's AROS X86 build...

Without factoring 68K compatibility/legacy issues**, AROS X86(~2006-09-01) works reasonably OK**. **But not enough to displace my WinUAE/AmiKit setup (I operate WinUAE mostly in RTG/AHI modes).

Last edited by Hammer on 23-Oct-2006 at 09:30 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 23-Oct-2006 at 09:27 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Carl-S



Welcome back to Amiga !

_________________
-------------------------------
AmigaOS, the last hope...

@Carl-S

Welcome.

Yesterday at the Alchimie show, I've seen a new hardware that seems very promising. I'm not the only one to say this. Several amigans told me the same.
Some of them are even preparing great stuff.

I'll write some notes about it when I have time. Stay tuned.

_________________
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Sam460 1.10 Ghz
AmigaOS 4 betatester
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@Hyperionmp

Quote:

We currently do not see any merit in adopting x86 hardware in view of the massive Linux style support issues

Well, Intel “opened” their Intel GMA 3000 IGP solution…

Note that Intel is the largest GPU and PC core logic vendor (e.g. Intel Centrino (laptop PCs), Intel vPro (desktop PCs)).

Last edited by Hammer on 23-Oct-2006 at 11:45 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 23-Oct-2006 at 11:41 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@hatschi

Quote:

Well, at Amiwest, you might have had a look at a first outcome of 1 1/2 years - a board which is hardly ever going to work. Heck, we can't even have AmigaOS ported to existing PPC platforms like PPC Macs or the Pegasos 2 from bplan.

You forget to mention that there are other projects. One of which, by the way, looks much more promising and, when publically presented, was not only already in the process of getting a license, but even rather positively acknowledged by Bill McEwen in person: its name is Samantha. And let's not forget that Samantha is not the only project from the same team.

Oh, and, BTW: it would have been kind of you if along with "Heck, we can't even have AmigaOS ported to existing PPC platforms like PPC Macs or the Pegasos 2 from bplan." you had provided links to the countless threads where those issues are dissected just as promptly as you did with the Dave Haynie thread.

Quote:

I know, this situation might look a bit weird from the outside or for new people interested in the Amiga and that exactly is the point: You won't find many non-hardcore old-time Amigans who would spend something like $1000 on hardware that is extremely slow compared to standard off-the-shelf x86 solutions.

The situation is grim, but you do all your best to make it look grimmer. And I don't find this particularly nice when you do it also with somebody who does not (seem to) have a full picture of the situation. To really be informative, you could have presented more than your one-sided view.

Quote:

And pointing to the "Linux style support issues" is also flawed logic: You could just pick one or two x86-mainboards, define some standard components and you would be done. No need to support 12745 different chipsets.

Again you are presenting your particular viewpoint as if it is the only one.

Quote:

New hardware and an "OS4 final" has been promised for a long time now and the phrase "around the corner" of HyperionMP sounds just too familiar to me (OS4/new hardware was actually already announced for last year's Christmas ) - so better take it with a grain of salt.

Same goes for your words

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@saimo

Quote:

You forget to mention that there are other projects.

My aim was to point out the difficulties that can arise when relying on "custom-made obscure PPC hardware" vs. "off-the-shelf-X86-hardware". The example of Troika outlines these difficulties very well. I might have also mentioned ACK who so far hasn't fullfilled any of his promises. (Remember that his PV LT was originally announced for Q1 2005!).
Yes, I do think that things are looking much better with Samantha and I do hope that they sort out the remaining difficulties very soon (license, OS4-porting/modifying, etc.). However, given the rumoured price and the comparably weak performance, I don't think that this platform will attract many "outsiders" to AmigaOS, especially when comparing it to the possibilities you would have with AmigaOS on cheap off-the-shelf x86-hardware.

Quote:

Oh, and, BTW: it would have been kind of you if along with "Heck, we can't even have AmigaOS ported to existing PPC platforms like PPC Macs or the Pegasos 2 from bplan." you had provided links to the countless threads where those issues are dissected just as promptly as you did with the Dave Haynie thread.

Well, I already have pointed out the main issue: Licensing. Feel free to provide some links to that often discussed topic if you feel the need to do so.

Quote:

And I don't find this particularly nice when you do it also with somebody who does not (seem to) have a full picture of the situation. To really be informative, you could have presented more than your one-sided view.

Well, what I wrote was indeed my own view of the situation. Feel free to contribute yours, or even write a "really objective" article on the different standpoints.

@Carl-S

Welcome! An AmigaOS multiplatform open source clone that runs on x86 machines exists, it's called AROS. It doesn't have 680x0 binary compatibility on x86 machines and on big endian machines it still doesn't run 680x0 binaries. It can run native or hosted on Linux. It's not much useful as it doesn't have many apps.

The current lack of OS4-compatible hardware is depressing. And the future hardware announcements (cache-less embedded cpus running at 600Mhz for 500¤ are a joke) does not make me confident about the future of AmigaOS4. >1000$ boards with a G4 don't make me feel any better.

Most of OS4-fans seem to be happy about paying bags of money for overpriced sub-standard hardware without advantages over the competition, just for the shake of using something different (and lying themselves thinking that the hardware is as special as A500 was in 1988).

An AmigaOS clone called MorphOS exists, but unfortunately due to lack of funds it's not evolving as fast as years ago.

Both OS4 and MorphOS are at a very useable state but the future of both solutions is quite dark.

AROS is more primitive but by its free nature it has more chances of survival in the long term if they achieved 680x0 emulation, because it would reunite the remaining pieces of the amiga community.

Whitout 680x0 emulation AROS doesn't have much future... regardless of all remaining coders suddenly starting to code for AROS...

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@hatschi

You don't want this to turn in yet another port-AOS4-to-Pegasos/Mac/x86 thread, do you?
I just wanted to remark that it is not exactly nice to see the current sad situation depicted worse than it is(*) over and over again, especially in the case of such a "newcomer" as Carl.

(*)Which you keep on doing especially with

Quote:

Yes, I do think that things are looking much better with Samantha and I do hope that they sort out the remaining difficulties very soon (license, OS4-porting/modifying, etc.). However, given the rumoured price and the comparably weak performance, I don't think that this platform will attract many "outsiders" to AmigaOS, especially when comparing it to the possibilities you would have with AmigaOS on cheap off-the-shelf x86-hardware.

You start with an apparently positive approach, but then you add:

- "the remaining difficulties very soon (license, OS4-porting/modifying, etc.)", without saying also that: a) the license issue was being handled, with a positive attitude by AInc, already weeks ago; b) that some of the people involved in the Samantha projects are *also* AOS4 developers and that Andrea Vallinotto has already talked, in the Pianeta Amiga IRC session, about (what was done and what had to be done for) the porting to Samantha;

- "However, given the rumoured price", but indeed there is no "rumoured price", as the developers themselves have openly and officially indicated the price for the first developer boards, clearly stating, at the same time, that the price for the public is going to be lower thanks to the higher number of units produced (let's not forget that the board is not intended for AOS4 only);

- "the comparably weak performance", without mentioning that: a) Samantha is inteded to be an entry-level board; b) Moana is intended to fullfil more demanding desires; c) AOS4 would run decently on it anyway;

- "especially when comparing it to the possibilities you would have with AmigaOS on cheap off-the-shelf x86-hardware", closing the paragraph with yet another x86-is-cheaper statement...

In all, you really seem to like looking at just the gloomy side of things - you are entitled to do so and also to air your thoughts, but I hope you realize that being hammered with them over and over again may be annoying and also that, as explained above and in the other post, you could have avoided the hammering at least in the reply to Carl.

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote: @hatschi Quote: I know, this situation might look a bit weird from the outside or for new people interested in the Amiga and that exactly is the point: You won't find many non-hardcore old-time Amigans who would spend something like $1000 on hardware that is extremely slow compared to standard off-the-shelf x86 solutions. The situation is grim, but you do all your best to make it look grimmer.

Yup, the situation is grim: It's 2006, and there's hardly any PPC hardware to choose from, let alone competitive PPC hardware. And I think Hatschi is right in pointing out that it's even grimmer than "a newbie" could imagine. For an outsider, it's hard to imagine that AInc on top of the actual PPC hardware situation would make licensing demands to further limit the available options. We have to pretend that we need "new Amigas". Because of that, the number of options is currently zero.

Quote:

Again you [Hatschi] are presenting your particular viewpoint as if it is the only one.

I don't get this. It was not everyone who made that post, it was Hatschi. Why should any debater here present all other possible viewpoints in addition to one's own? This is a discussion forum with people stating their points of view, we're not journalists writing in a journalistic publication. "IMO"s are rarely necessary in a forum, most of the time it's obvious.

Anyway, he's right. ;)

_________________
Oh, bother.

@Carl-S

Welcome to part of our humble abode!
If you have the time and feel so inclined, please consider visiting irc here on
AW, where most of the activity occurs.
channel [#amigaworld] Basic info here:
http://chat.amigaworld.net/webchat.php?uid=4341

@HyperionMP

Nice to see you posting again. Don't be such a stranger.

@those who don't bother interacting with the community they say that they "value"
so much

*shrug*

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

@saimo

Quote:

You don't want this to turn in yet another port-AOS4-to-Pegasos/Mac/x86 thread, do you?

As far as I can see, Carl brought up the x86-topic himself - which I can very well understand, since that is also the experience that I made when talking to "outsiders" about the current state of Amiga/AmigaOS. At a certain point they'll all ask "So why can't they just port the OS to hardware that's cheap & available instead of trying to solder their own odd custom boards?"

Quote:

"the remaining difficulties very soon (license, OS4-porting/modifying, etc.)", without saying also that: a) the license issue was being handled, with a positive attitude by AInc, already weeks ago; b) that some of the people involved in the Samantha projects are *also* AOS4 developers and that Andrea Vallinotto has already talked, in the Pianeta Amiga IRC session, about (what was done and what had to be done for) the porting to Samantha;

Not sure what you're exactly aiming at. All of the above points are currently not exactly "done" yet and I've stated that I hope that they'll be sorted out soon, so? Let's also hope that the unclear legal situation around AOS (dispute between Hyperion Amiga Inc.) does not further delay or complicate a release of such hardware.

Quote:

"However, given the rumoured price", but indeed there is no "rumoured price", as the developers themselves have openly and officially indicated the price for the first developer boards, clearly stating, at the same time, that the price for the public is going to be lower thanks to the higher number of units produced (let's not forget that the board is not intended for AOS4 only);

So we can hope that the price for the consumer version is "lower" - whatever that means. I guess that's the reason why there is a so-called "rumoured price" since people have their own definition of what "lower" exactly means. I guess the price will still be "high" compared to the performance the board can offer.

Quote:

"the comparably weak performance", without mentioning that: a) Samantha is inteded to be an entry-level board; b) Moana is intended to fullfil more demanding desires; c) AOS4 would run decently on it anyway;

a) an entry-level board would need an entry-level price
b) Moana will possibly be even more expensive
c) I was talking about the hardware, not the OS

Quote:

"especially when comparing it to the possibilities you would have with AmigaOS on cheap off-the-shelf x86-hardware", closing the paragraph with yet another x86-is-cheaper statement...

Sorry, the truth can be annoying, but it's better than lies.

@saimo

Quote:

In all, you really seem to like looking at just the gloomy side of things - you are entitled to do so and also to air your thoughts, but I hope you realize that being hammered with them over and over again may be annoying and also that, as explained above and in the other post, you could have avoided the hammering at least in the reply to Carl.

Try for a moment to see things from the perspective of an AmigaOS-on-x86 advocate. We keep banging on about this over and over again because, from where we stand, it's the only important issue left in Amiga land. Without a jump to x86 AmigaOS dies, so everything else is completely irrelevant.

It's like being on a sinking ship. The x86 guys are sitting in the lifeboats screaming "Come on, get in! The ship is sinking!" while the PPC enthusiasts are calmly moving deckchairs around and discussing what to have for dinner that night.

Either side could be doing the right thing, it just depends on whether the ship really is sinking or not...

Last edited by DrBombcrater on 23-Oct-2006 at 02:49 PM.

_________________
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@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote: - "the remaining difficulties very soon (license, OS4-porting/modifying, etc.)", without saying also that: a) the license issue was being handled, with a positive attitude by AInc, already weeks ago; b) that some of the people involved in the Samantha projects are *also* AOS4 developers and that Andrea Vallinotto has already talked, in the Pianeta Amiga IRC session, about (what was done and what had to be done for) the porting to Samantha;

a) No-one knows if the licence issue is being handled. It has been mentioned. Experience should tell you that McEwen mentioning things rarely means anything.

b) Are you saying that OS4 developers are more likely to get a licence to be allowed to sell hardware to be used with OS4? If participating in developing OS4 is another "official" requirement that hardware vendors need to fulfill, then... Well, it really can't look worse than it is. I don't see the "positive" connection between "they develop OS4" and "they want a licence to be allowed to sell hardware to OS4 users".

Quote:

- "However, given the rumoured price", but indeed there is no "rumoured price", as the developers themselves have openly and officially indicated the price for the first developer boards, clearly stating, at the same time, that the price for the public is going to be lower thanks to the higher number of units produced (let's not forget that the board is not intended for AOS4 only);

"AmigaOne" all over again.
IIRC, the stated initial price was $400 excluding taxes and OS4. Wow, I can see how that will "sell like hot-cakes", as someone probably wishes to forget he said about the "AmigaOne". Not.

Quote:

- "the comparably weak performance", without mentioning that: a) Samantha is inteded to be an entry-level board; b) Moana is intended to fullfil more demanding desires; c) AOS4 would run decently on it anyway;

Note the word "comparably". Compare it to other motherboards that sell for $400 (excl. VAT) in 2006. All else is irrelevant. It's not meant to compete with PDP-11s, C64s, Amigas or other relics. It's not meant to be shipped back in time, it's meant to be sold, well, RSN.

OS4 runs decently even on an "AmigaOne", and I presume also on an Amiga (w/CS-PPC). But I suspect that most people would like to do more with a >$400 motherboard than to admire the decent refresh speed of windows and menus of Workbench. An old rusty Fiat will get you from point A to point B, but you can't expect to sell it for the price of a new competitive car.

Quote:

In all, you really seem to like looking at just the gloomy side of things - you are entitled to do so and also to air your thoughts, but I hope you realize that being hammered with them over and over again may be annoying and also that, as explained above and in the other post, you could have avoided the hammering at least in the reply to Carl.

Both the reasons for doom & gloom as well as any possible reason for dancing bananas don't go away depending on whom one is replying to. Should we have an official list of people on AW.net, specifying who we should and should not state our honest opinions to?

As for being annoyed and hammered by opinions, are you reading discussion fora in this position? ;)

_________________
Oh, bother.

@thread

Let's not make this into yet another OS4 to x86 flamefest.

Be nice and polite to each other.

_________________
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@hatschi

Quote:

As far as I can see, Carl brought up the x86-topic himself - which I can very well understand, since that is also the experience that I made when talking to "outsiders" about the current state of Amiga/AmigaOS. At a certain point they'll all ask "So why can't they just port the OS to hardware that's cheap & available instead of trying to solder their own odd custom boards?"

Yes, and you had already addressed it by providing the link to the discussion with Haynie. If you felt that that was not sufficient, you could have also said something along the lines "there are other massive discussions also here, here and here", without planting yet another seed here - it would be OT and, as we all know, rather unneeded given the huge amount of debates already available for all to see.

Quote:

Not sure what you're exactly aiming at. All of the above points are currently not exactly "done" yet and I've stated that I hope that they'll be sorted out soon, so?

I'm simply adding the information that you omitted, which makes the situation look better and closer to reality than the one you presented. For example, the licensing issue in your words is a "remaining difficulty", but the fact that AInc is positive about it makes it less a difficulty

BTW: how do you know that "All of the above points are currently not exactly "done" yet"? That's just what you assume, but it is not a fact. It could match reality, but you can't know for sure. So, presenting that particular thought that way adds again a negative spin.

Quote:

So we can hope that the price for the consumer version is "lower" - whatever that means. I guess that's the reason why there is a so-called "rumoured price" since people have their own definition of what "lower" exactly means.

The meaning of "lower" was very, very clear. The context was:
Quote:

"However, given the rumoured price", but indeed there is no "rumoured price", as the developers themselves have openly and officially indicated the price for the first developer boards, clearly stating, at the same time, that the price for the public is going to be lower thanks to the higher number of units produced (let's not forget that the board is not intended for AOS4 only);

I'm sure you don't need me to explain.

Quote:

I guess the price will still be "high" compared to the performance the board can offer.

I'm also sure you don't need me to explain that if they manage to successfully market the board outside of AmigaLand (which is exactly what they are after), it is possible also to add a "considerably" before "lower" It could be high... but it could also be reasonable. Who can really say for sure?

Quote:

a) an entry-level board would need an entry-level price

And how do you know that the price will not be proportionally OK?

Quote:

b) Moana will possibly be even more expensive

And how do you know that the price will not be proportionally OK?

Quote:

c) I was talking about the hardware, not the OS

Aren't we discussing running AOS4 on HW or what? Isn't the low footprint of AOS4 a relevant and important part as regards the performance? Sure, it does not solve all the problems of a relatively not powerful HW, but it helps.

Quote:

Quote: "especially when comparing it to the possibilities you would have with AmigaOS on cheap off-the-shelf x86-hardware", closing the paragraph with yet another x86-is-cheaper statement... [quote]Sorry, the truth can be annoying, but it's better than lies.

This has nothing to do with what I meant: my post was discussing how you present only the dark side of the situation, ornamenting it, wherever possible, with the x86-is-cheaper argument which, as I repeately explained, has been already discussed to death and does not exactly fit this thread.

BTW: who told you I'm annoyed by truth? All I've been saying is that I don't find nice nor correct presenting only some (grim) sides of the situation, especially to a "newcomer".

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@DrBombcrater

I fully understand this and it's not my intention to silence anybody. If you re-read my posts you'll notice that all I'm asking for is reporting also the better/less grim aspects of the situation and avoiding the port-AOS4-to- flamefest.

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@saimo

Quote:

I just wanted to remark that it is not exactly nice to see the current sad situation depicted worse than it is

Saimo, if indeed hatschi is making the situation look worse than it is, you're doing nothing to make it look better. If you think hatschi has posted wrong information, just correct them, or at least present your own view of the situation. All you're doing is bickering, and that helps no one.

As far as I'm concerned, hatschi way of presenting the information is spot on and depicts the state of facts as accurately as possible, within the constraint of keeping the post under a readable size.

_________________
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~~ Henry Ford

@Carl-S

Welcome.

_________________
retired

@hatschi

Quote:

AmigaOS is currently being locked in a situation where small basement projects have to hand-solder custom PPC boards and when they have finally got it working, they have to worry to get a license for it (otherwise, AOS can't be ported to their hardware)

Hand-solder?! Sorry, but even while the basement/garage hobbyist thing may be true, the hand-soldering part I don't believe. Look at some of today's components. Fine-pitch QFPs. BGAs. You CAN'T hand-solder those. That's what PCB assembler companies are for. If we'd kept our motivation in the face if ignored license inquiries, our project would not have been hand-soldered. No way in heck I'd have accepted to do that. For what we had in mind it would not have been possible anyway.

Quote:

Heck, we can't even have AmigaOS ported to existing PPC platforms like PPC Macs

Help change the question on that. So far people have only ever asked Hyperion to do all the documentatin research themselves, which they don't want to do for whatever reason. We have our answer to that particular question, we need to change it, even if only in a subtle way. So far I've seen two or three people other than myself posting anything remotely productive toward the Mac hardware documentation challenge in the thread here on AW.net. No one other than myself has posted anything at all to the amigamac wiki page, neither the pages nor the discussions. Nothing at all. And my challenge was to the other users wishing for OS4 on Mac, I said I wouldn't do all the work myself at the very start of that challenge. But it seems very very few people who beg for this are willing contribute toward this goal. Therefore we should assume it's really not as big of a deal as you make it sound like. If I'm wrong, and it really is important to more people, then get to work hunting stuff down! Particularly the UniNorth/2/3/etc Apple-custom Northbridge chips and the other things on the Apple PCI ID page (there's a link to that on the challenge wiki somewhere).

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