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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
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miksuh 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:19:09
#61 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 731
From: Espoo, Finland

The best part of the show was AVD (Advanced Visual Developer) presentation. It was wery interesting.

Last edited by miksuh on 23-Oct-2006 at 06:25 PM.

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COBRA 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:22:22
#62 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Kronos

Quote:
Take for example OSX, sure it's bloated, one might even say it's slow by design, but since the low-end mac of the day has 2 cores running at 1.6-1.8GHz and comes with a minimum of 512MB, who do you think will notice ? And really why should I care when it eats 10% of my resources when those remaining 90% are still 5 times more than any "Amiga" delivers "raw" ?


Then why don't you just stick with a Mac and forget about the Amiga?

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Tigger 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:27:43
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@COBRA

Thats a good plan, lets chase the developers away, that will surely make OS4 RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

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TheDaddy 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:30:14
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4490
From: Quattro Stelle

@Carl-S

Hi,

if that is really you...

Welcome and RESPECT!

_________________
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

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saimo 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:30:43
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 1990
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:
Having a tight OS doesn't matter that much anymore as it did 10 years ago.

But it still matters. To some more than to others. But it matters.
BTW: not rarely I've been surprised by the difference it makes also for people that use computers just like their cars... they may not know a single thing about how they work, but they do notice the difference when they stop at the gas station

Quote:
Take for example OSX, sure it's bloated, one might even say it's slow by design, but since the low-end mac of the day has 2 cores running at 1.6-1.8GHz and comes with a minimum of 512MB, who do you think will notice ? And really why should I care when it eats 10% of my resources when those remaining 90% are still 5 times more than any "Amiga" delivers "raw" ?

Why wouldn't you want 99% of the resources for your applications instead of just 90%?

Quote:
On the other side, the current SteamDraw (shameless plug) would probraly still run o.k. on BPPCs if one keeps the drawings small. Useing all features I plan to implement in the next 12 months won't make it an option, and even a Peg1 might struggle on non-trivial projects.

Big drawings will surely produce a noticeable delay even on Peg2, and at some point in time an G4/1GHz might not feel fast anymore.

Reaching that limit on my MacMini would be much harder I think (if I would port SteamDraw to OSX that is).

Thats something one could probraly feel even more with stuff like image-manipulating or non-linear-video (someone suggested that would be possible with Blender), so who do you think is even gonna start such apps on a proffesional level, when the CPU-power isn't good enough for anything except hoobiest-level ?

Look, I've never said (nor thought) the opposite. Again, I have to repeat this: "Isn't the low footprint of AOS4 a relevant and important part as regards the performance? Sure, it does not solve all the problems of a relatively not powerful HW, but it helps.".
There is no doubt that more powerful, cheaper, more feature-rich HW would be better for AOS4. That's obvious.

saimo

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Kronos 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:32:28
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2079
From: Unknown

@ironfist
Nope .....

It follows the same standard in the same sense that an Award BIOS followed the same standard of an Phoenix-BIOS (or all other PC-BIOSes ever done).

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

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hatschi 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:33:22
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2320
From: Good old Europe.

@saimo

Quote:
However, given the rumoured price and the comparably weak performance, I don't think that this platform will attract many "outsiders" to AmigaOS, especially when comparing it to the possibilities you would have with AmigaOS on cheap off-the-shelf x86-hardware.
Quote:
which precisely means you don't believe that Samantha can be a successful project


Ah, and I thought that you meant that I don't "believe" that they'll ever manage to release the board at a certain point. Well, I can imagine that they will succeed in that, especially since the board looked much better crafted than what Troika presented (Amy'05).
The question wether it will be "successful" or not depends on people's own definition: I would only see it as a "success" when "outsiders" decide to buy the hardware and the community would get enlarged by people not belonging to the small circle of oldtime Amiga users. I doubt that this will happen with Samantha. However, I very much appreciate the decision to market the board in other markets. (It just remains to be seen how the license issue will be tackled in that case - regarding the infamous "1:1 ratio" of OS and hardware).

Others have different opinions, "success" is to them already when *any* hardware will make it to the users - irrespective of sales volume or longevity of the product.

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lovely 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:38:02
#68 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2005
Posts: 141
From: The land of the blondes

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote:
@COBRA

Thats a good plan, lets chase the developers away, that will surely make OS4 RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



-Tig



What's up with you? , i think you ate something bad today.
and for the record please show us something he made for OS4.

_________________
"I don't know whether nice people tend to grow roses or growing roses makes people nice"

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Kronos 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:38:14
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2079
From: Unknown

@saimo

Quote:


Why wouldn't you want 99% of the resources for your applications instead of just 90%?

saimo


Well, you gotta task to do, either 3 hours utilizing 90% of HW x, or 5 hours utilizing 99% of HW y ....

I have nothing against getting low-end HW (there are few things where I could really use an Efika or Samatha if the price was right), but when I think "Amiga" I 1st want a desktop computer with power suitable for that task. Without such HW that breed of "Amiga" is just totally uniteresting for me.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

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Kronos 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:39:20
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2079
From: Unknown

@lovely

Don't worry, with an attitude like yours so common thats never gonna happen......

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

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RedMelons 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:39:37
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1062
From: Merrie Olde England

@COBRA

Quote:
Then why don't you just stick with a Mac and forget about the Amiga?


Be careful what you wish for That's exactly what I've decided to do. I bought a complete AmigaOne-XE tower system from Eyetech three and a half years ago, paid my $50 to AInc, and helped to organise the AmigaOS4 demo in Newcastle, so I think I've done what I can to support AmigaOS4.

While my AmigaOne was recently away at Amiga Center France I bought a Mac mini to tide me over. After using the mac mini for a while I decided 'Hey, I think three and a half years is long enough for a 'developer system', with still no definite sign of a final OS or readily available hardware. So the AmigaOne has now been sold.

I'll keep an eye on the Amiga scene, and when/if the hardware and OS are available in the shops I'll consider AmigaOS again.

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saimo 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:44:08
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 1990
From: Unknown

@hatschi

Quote:
The question wether it will be "successful" or not depends on people's own definition: I would only see it as a "success" when "outsiders" decide to buy the hardware and the community would get enlarged by people not belonging to the small circle of oldtime Amiga users.

Fully agreed (I did not bother specifying that as I thought it was obvious ).

Quote:
I doubt that this will happen with Samantha.

Well, on second thought, another possible "success" would be managing to build a more solid base for higher objectives - f.ex., it could (temporary) fullfil the needs of those developers that cannot run AOS4 right now and attract a few more developers/geeks from outside the community thus funding the high-end boards development. Not really an immediate boost / "tangible" success, but something to build on.

Quote:
However, I very much appreciate the decision to market the board in other markets. (It just remains to be seen how the license issue will be tackled in that case - regarding the infamous "1:1 ratio" of OS and hardware).

Yeah, let's see.

Quote:
Others have different opinions, "success" is to them already when *any* hardware will make it to the users - irrespective of sales volume or longevity of the product.

Well, no, that's too short-sighted for me...

saimo

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hatschi 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:45:12
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2320
From: Good old Europe.

@saimo

Quote:
Again, I have to repeat this: "Isn't the low footprint of AOS4 a relevant and important part as regards the performance? Sure, it does not solve all the problems of a relatively not powerful HW, but it helps.".


Just make sure that your hardware is slow enough and you won't have to worry: The low footprint *will remain* "a relevant and important part as regards the performance".
So, yeah, agreed, let's stay PPC.

Last edited by hatschi on 23-Oct-2006 at 06:50 PM.

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saimo 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:53:45
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 1990
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:
I have nothing against getting low-end HW (there are few things where I could really use an Efika or Samatha if the price was right), but when I think "Amiga" I 1st want a desktop computer with power suitable for that task. Without such HW that breed of "Amiga" is just totally uniteresting for me.

I think that most of - well, probably, all - the people that know what Amiga meant back in the 80s cannot but think/dream of it as a powerful, innovative, pleasant machine that can handle any kind of task... but unfortunately we know very well that, for a number of reasons, that is not possible right now. Fortunately, everybody has different needs, so there's a chance that AOS could return to life little by little, starting from the small steps it's taking these days.

saimo

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saimo 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:56:56
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 1990
From: Unknown

@hatschi

Quote:
Just make sure that your hardware is slow enough and you won't have to worry: The low footprint *will remain* "a relevant and important part as regards the performance".

To me - like many other - the low footprint is important regardless of the HW.

Quote:
So, yeah, agreed, let's stay PPC.

No need to start a CPUx VS CPUy war here.

saimo

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lovely 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 18:59:15
#76 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2005
Posts: 141
From: The land of the blondes

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote:
@lovely

Don't worry, with an attitude like yours so common thats never gonna happen......



pardon?

_________________
"I don't know whether nice people tend to grow roses or growing roses makes people nice"

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evilrich 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 19:01:47
#77 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Oct-2003
Posts: 534
From: Unknown

@umisef

Quote:
Macs already have perfectly good firmware which has been in use by literally millions of people for years....

Actually that's not entirely true. Apple's firmware has been rather buggy in the past. For example, on Old World machines, because of bugs, it's often very difficult to use the firmware to boot anything other than the built-in MacOS toolbox ROM, as anybody who's tried to install Linux or BSD or even OS X on an Old World machine can attest.

Cheers,
Rich

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Carl-S 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 19:07:38
#78 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2006
Posts: 38
From: REBOLville

@Carl-S

First, I'd like to thank everyone for the warm welcome here.

I've read through many of the replies to my posting, thanks! Sadly, I do not have time to read them all. (I am also having strange connection problems to the Amigaworld.net server, so that does not help.)

I realize that I'm jumping into the fire, sorry. However, from what I've read, I think I get the general idea:

Basically, it appears that my experience at AmiWest was not the full story, and there are many other projects/products going on.

I have known of projects like AROS, MorphOS, and a couple others for many years... and you mention a few others, but what I really wanted to find was "the true Amiga 4.0 system" (HW+OS), if there was such a thing.

For hardware, although I am very good with a soldering iron, such a requirement is not Amiga friendly, in the traditional way. Nor is a $1000 price. This summer I purchased a MacBook core/duo for that price, and it's quite a powerful machine. It has high value.

When it comes to building and selling a computer system, you have to make many difficult decisions, but at the start you need to clearly define your vision and goals. What are you trying to make? If you cannot define it, you cannot build it.

I see a lot of "fragmentation" of the Amiga. Whereas the word Amiga once meant something very specific, that unity is gone. But, the success of any valid platform requires strong unity and growth. Somehow, people have to come together and share the same vision, and sometimes to do that, you've got to give something up and look at the entire picture.

Of course, this is all easy to say. It is very difficult to achieve. As an eternal optimist, it seems to me that there must be a solution lurking somewhere in all of this.

After all, I know quite well what an Amiga is. To me, Amiga is well defined. I just wish I could buy it somewhere... for a reasonable price.

Sorry for stirring the pot.

_________________
When replying, please keep it short and sweet, and I will read it. If it is long, I read only the first few lines to decide if I want to read the rest.

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number6 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 19:19:17
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9790
From: In the village

@Carl-S

Quote:
I've read through many of the replies to my posting, thanks! Sadly, I do not have time to read them all. (I am also having strange connection problems to the Amigaworld.net server, so that does not help.)

Problem is not on your end. Known issue. Report filed earlier.

Quote:
"the true Amiga 4.0 system"

Friendly advice, avoid use of this phrase (at least for the present).

Quote:
I see a lot of "fragmentation" of the Amiga.

Understatement of the year.

Quote:
Somehow, people have to come together and share the same vision, and sometimes to do that, you've got to give something up and look at the entire picture.

You just described the bind I have been in for several years.
No doubt that setting self interest aside and thinking about the good of the "whole"
is a daunting task.

Best wishes and please enjoy your stay with us,

#6






_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

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saimo 
Re: AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 19:25:28
#80 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 1990
From: Unknown

@Carl-S

Quote:

First, I'd like to thank everyone for the warm welcome here.

Well, it's us to be pleased by your presence here

Quote:
I've read through many of the replies to my posting, thanks! Sadly, I do not have time to read them all. (I am also having strange connection problems to the Amigaworld.net server, so that does not help.)

You're not the only one today

Quote:

I have known of projects like AROS, MorphOS, and a couple others for many years... and you mention a few others, but what I really wanted to find was "the true Amiga 4.0 system" (HW+OS), if there was such a thing.

There is such a thing, and it's the AmigaOne + AOS4, but:
- the AmigaOne (from EyeTech) is no longer in production;
- the Amiga feeling coming from AmigaOne + AOS4 comes just from AOS4 (I don't want to belittle the role played by the AmigaOne, without which AOS4 may have not existed).
BTW: this is being written on an AmigaOne + AOS4

Quote:
When it comes to building and selling a computer system, you have to make many difficult decisions, but at the start you need to clearly define your vision and goals. What are you trying to make? If you cannot define it, you cannot build it.

Very true.

Quote:
I see a lot of "fragmentation" of the Amiga. Whereas the word Amiga once meant something very specific, that unity is gone. But, the success of any valid platform requires strong unity and growth. Somehow, people have to come together and share the same vision, and sometimes to do that, you've got to give something up and look at the entire picture.

Very true again.

Quote:
After all, I know quite well what an Amiga is. To me, Amiga is well defined.

This is *very* interesting, indeed. As innocent and obvious as it may sound, indeed there are different ideas about what "Amiga" is. To me, once it was the HW+OS combination. Now, in the days where HW banging is useless for anything other than personal enjoyment, it's just the OS...
So... could you elaborate on this, please? I think it would make for a very interesting read

Quote:
I just wish I could buy it somewhere... for a reasonable price.

This wish is shared by the whole community...

Quote:
Sorry for stirring the pot.

Actually I don't think you can be blamed for anything... again, we're pleased to have you here

saimo

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