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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
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Poll : Do you agree or disagree?
Yes
No
Not sure
 
PosterThread
croquemitaine 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 19:17:32
#141 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Jul-2006
Posts: 42
From: Aurillac france

@falemagn

Mr fabio i am surprised to read you here so much whereas you are rare at aros-exec.org.Is the air fresher here?
You have a few troubles with the aros name already used by different companies and zune by microsoft.Linux to me is a fashion that many other projects follow but there is one linux and many gui for linux,meaning that parallel projects will end as a owner gui for linux.Perfect to me but far from Amiga.
At reverse,efi allows if i am right to install software running at start of pc.
Recently individual computer and minimig proved that it is possible to build pfga amiga chips.
So a pc starting with built in aros and using amiga custom chips to allow seeing virtualisation.I mean dragging screens with one showing windows and the other macos and....
Does it make sense to you?

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 19:27:35
#142 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@CodeSmith

Quote:

I'm not confused by the fact that Linux is more advanced than AROS. AROS on Linux seems to be serving the exact same purpose as WINE the Windows API layer. People use WINE to run those Windows programs they want/need to, while still running Linux.


Well, you can look at it that way - which is fine with me - or you can look at it the other way around: it'd be a way to run your Amiga/AROS apps and at the same time run that linux app that you so much wanted.

What's the situation with AmigaOS4 today anyway? What are the AmigaOS4-specific killer apps? The majority of new programs available for AmigaOS4 are all ports from the unix world. Everyone here is eager to get a port of Mozilla, or OpenOffice, or younameit. Just think of all the work that is needed to port such apps to the less functional AmigaOS just to get, in the end, an application which will probably run slower than the original or crippled in certain functionalities, and for sure without the advantage of running within a protected environment.

Now, instead, think of a situation in which you're running AmigaOS4 and you so much wanted to run that linux app that everyone is going "wow" about. It couldn't be any easier: get the binary, install it, run it.

How could it be any worse than it is now? I only see advantages.

Quote:

If I want to run AmigaOS applications on Linux, I use UAE, which comes with chipset and 68K CPU emulation built in. There are no Amiga x86 "killer apps", so again, as an end user I see no benefit to "AROS on Linux".


Then you'd not see any benefit of AROS on the bare hardware as well, for there would be even less apps to run, wouldn't you? But that being the case, you certainly would have no say on the matter at hand right now.

And you forget that AROS isn't just about x86. And you also forget that this is meant to be just a first step towards something better than AROS is right now and than Linux is right now, even with the most bloated distribution. You might want to have a look at the short list of functionalities I described earlier, to see what I'm talking about.

Quote:

As a developer, sure, I can understand someone preferring the Amiga APIs over the Linux ones, but a healthy platform has a lot more users than developers. All this would apply to a version of OS4 running on Linux instead of Exec too.


As a developer, you could also see it as a means to code for your favourite API and deploy your app to Linux, BSD, Windows (if AROS hosted gets ported to Windows), bare hardware, etc... You could see it as a middleware.

Again, how's that bad?

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Leo 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 19:28:18
#143 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1552
From: Unknown

In fact, what do you mean by "definition of the Amiga" ? Is it:

- What the Amiga was ?
- What the Amiga is ?
- What you would like it to be ?

I assume this is the later one, this would be the common "goal"...

Quote:

3. Simplicity: I liked the fact that the Amiga wasn't layers of (backwards-compatible) crust piled on top of each other (like Windows or OS X), so that I can easily understand everything in the system - each OS file has a sensible name, is placed in a sensibly named folder, and has a sensible purpose.

I liked it. but now I hate it. We have MUI, we have PPC programs, we have Reactions programs, we have 68k programs, we have 68k programs that directly hit hardware. It's far far far from easy to understand this all.

Quote:

layers of (backwards-compatible) crust piled on top of each other

This is exactly what AmigaOS had become now...

Leo.

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 19:37:53
#144 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@croquemitaine

AROS is free for everyone to fiddle with, I'm certainly not in the position, nor I want, to stop anyone from making it the operating system of a classic Amiga compatible machine. It'd certainly be a cool project, but I think UAE plus any recent portable console is better suited to the task.

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

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Hondo 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 19:44:37
#145 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1340
From: Denmark

I totally agree with Carl's oppinion on the Amiga

.....BUT HE FORGOT THE PANCAKES!!

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Snuffy 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 19:45:21
#146 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Oct-2005
Posts: 1121
From: Michigan, USA

@Carl-S

Creative People:Creative people solve problems. They think. They enhance. The legacy of Amiga is the amazing list of doers, thinkers, artists, musicians, programmers, and even CEOs who have owned and used Amiga over the last two decades. Those are the kind of people you want using your system - not droids. And also, I don't just mean creative users, I am also talking about creative developers and entrepreneurs who make it possible from the start.

I gotta problem here -- can't I be a good user! Amiga has always has been esoteric from it's classical heritage and for the priviledged few. You lie, you solve all your Amiga business and banking with MS Windows.



edit: I voted not sure. Especially after all of BM's blab!

Last edited by Snuffy on 25-Oct-2006 at 07:52 PM.

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filmamigo 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 22:21:24
#147 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2004
Posts: 14
From: Toronto, Canada

@CodeSmith

>> Looks like Commodore marketed very differently in different countries then

That was one of the interesting things I learned by reading "The Home Computer Wars" (an insider's take of Commodore through the Pet/Vic/64 years.) They seemed to have a lot of international autonomy.

My first Amiga was a 2000, bought within a month of its introduction. The PC wasn't even in competition at that point. A PC at that point was approx $4000, came with a 20 meg HD and black and white text. PC sound meant "beep!"

My second Amiga was a 3000. Bought in late '91. By that point, mass-market PC prices were close to Amiga prices. Most of those PC's had a whopping 16 colours and the sound from an Ad-lIb card still sucked compared to a Commodore 64.

But this was the time when PC's evolved the fastest. VGA and Soundblaster 16 were pretty good... while Amiga R&D was hamstrung by Commodore management...

By the 90's (with the 4000 and the 1200) the value proposition wasn't nearly as good as it had been, even in Canada. And the market presence was really falling apart. In fact, it was hard to find 4000's and 1200's for sale anywhere. Contrast this to the A500, which had been in major-market retail channels, like Canadian Tire, an auto-supply store that sold many Canadian's their first home computer.

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Tesla 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 22:51:21
#148 ]
Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2003
Posts: 80
From: Sweden

@Hammer

Regarding your statements about hardware och processors, I think you
try to make it sound more complex than it is. I have considered more than
the processor - and it boils down to the fact that the CPU is the one component
which has the greatest impact on the system from a programmers perspective.

You also try to make it sound like assembler is harder than it is. Not all code
requires knowledge of scheduling/pipeline details, it depends on the type of
problem and what you are attempting to accomplish.

But let us not turn this thread into an argument over different processor
families and their properties. I like the PPC and yes, I know enough to have
considered your points.

@falemagn

Quote:

What's the situation with AmigaOS4 today anyway? What are the AmigaOS4-specific killer apps? The majority of new programs available for AmigaOS4 are all ports from the unix world.


One main reason for this is probably because AmigaOS4 has a rather limited
software eco-system to support new applications in. We are still in the process
of updating the platform in the sense that all modern "necessities" must
become available before a larger amount of original development can take
place (in my opinion).

More new and exciting projects will come, but not until the software
environment can support them.


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TMTisFree 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 25-Oct-2006 22:58:19
#149 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Nov-2003
Posts: 1487
From: Nice, so nice

@Carl-S

I cannot vote because I myself cannot define it precisely. But I know Amiga attract me.

The following quote from mausle expresses best why I bought my A2000 (thx to mausle):

"Back in the days when the Amiga was released it attracted many people that
never were into computers before. It was just amazing what you could do with
with this system, things that were not possible before or with other systems
existing at that time or price. "

I then had a A4000T which is still alive today. I now have an AmigaOne/OS4 as my main Amiga computer.

I enjoy my Amigas, I do not 'use' them.

Among all, and for me, ARexx is the BEST feature of Amiga (and of computers in general).

Some keywords representing Amiga for me:
ARexx/IPC
responssivness
pyramid-like user control (fom GUI to system level, or as much you know, as much you discover)
the simple start/stop button

Sorry, I have more of a feeling toward my Amigas than a definition to propose.

Bye,
TMTisFree

_________________
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redrumloa 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 2:29:54
#150 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 7-Feb-2005
Posts: 562
From: Unknown

@Carl-S

Let me repeat what I said in the other thread, as you may not be reading in any longer.

Quote:
Your Amiwest speech was very interesting, I was glued to the stream. Thank you for that.

You are a man with great vision and a history with the Amiga. Would you kindly buy Amiga Inc and/or OS4 and right this ship? BTW, I am not joking.

First login and post here in 17 months.


For the record, I agree with you 110% and voted accordingly.

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billt 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 2:54:49
#151 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3021
From: Maryland, USA

@falemagn

Quote:
But there's a living example to look at: AROS. AROS runs on top of Linux, yet it is (or at least can be) totally compatible with AmigaOS at source level (and binary level on the right architectures). AROS could be improved in such a way as to make it transparent to the user that there's Linux underneath, and Linux programs could be integrated with AROS so that you could run them from the AROS CLI and their graphical output would be shown on the AROS screen(s).


AROS on Linux "at least can be" totally source-compatible with AmigaOS. AROS "could be" made so that Linux becomes transparent, I assume much like Amithlon. Linux software "could be" made to run from AROS cli onto AROS screens. We've seen other posts of yours claiming that a 68K emulator "could be" added to AROS to run native AmigaOS 3.x binaries.

Sorry, but that's an awful lot of hypothetical stuff that doesn't sound like it's actually reality. OS4 "could be" made to do all of those same things if only the developers wanted to. Who is going to make all these things into real-life reality for AROS? Is this actually being worked on right now?

For marketing of AROS as a candidate for the Amiga spirit, what is it actually capable of in real life today?

Quote:
Warning

AROS is alpha quality software. This means that it is currently mostly fun to play with and cool to develop for. If you came here because you thought AROS was a finished, complete and fully usable operating system, you will most likely be disappointed. AROS isn't there yet, but we're slowly moving in the right direction.


That, from the aros web site, doesn't sound like a far superior candidate in terms of the Amiga spirit than OS4 does... What, in your opinion, makes my assumption here wrong? I'm not asking for "could be" stuff, I'm asking for today's reality.

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CodeSmith 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 2:58:03
#152 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@falemagn

I'm not saying any of it is "bad", just that it doesn't make any business sense. You're in the OSS world, so I can see how that would be a low priority for you. Any company hoping to make money from OS4 would probably see things differently though; the amiga community is way to small to make money off services, so retail software sales are going to be the only way to expand the user base (while making a profit) in the short term.

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redrumloa 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 2:59:20
#153 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 7-Feb-2005
Posts: 562
From: Unknown

@Carl-S

Quote:
I would know that my next favorite OS would not be Amiga-based. I could return without distraction to making the REBOL OS... a powerful, lightweight alternative OS for people who do not want to support MS and think Linux is too big and complex. And, ironically enough, it is OS is completely configured and controlled by REBOL scripts... sort of like AREXX and shell scripts...


I thought this was in the plans? I seem to remember the last step of your plan was Molten Lava(?), before the rename to REBOL.

Anyhow, I could not agree with you more on all points. The problem is, all the companies in this current market disagree on all points for whatever reason. I must ask what others are probably thinking. Do you intend to, or are you considering, getting involved in any Amiga-ish project yourself?

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billt 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 3:14:13
#154 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3021
From: Maryland, USA

@falemagn

Quote:
Taken in this context, AmigaOS4 becomes kind of irrelevant because it's just not required in order to understand the definition of "Amiga" that Carl has given. If Carl thought that AmigaOS4 were relevant to the "Amiga" definition, he'd have put it in the definition.


He didn't exclude it any more strongly than he excluded AROS or any other OS. And I don't remember him including or excluding anything by name. Or, like you said, if AROS was relevant to his Amiga definition, he'd have put it in the definition, therefor it isn't any more relevant than you appear to think OS4 is?

I hope Carl is wrong about hte divergence in the Amiga community. We all obviously like to bicker, and it's hard to imagine a convergence of the three OS4/MOS/AROS groups.

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gary_c 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 5:06:13
#155 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@Carl-S

It's interesting that a large majority of people here voted in support of your definition even though it contains elements that are in direct contrast to significant aspects of AmigaOS4/AmigaOne, etc. that have been central to this web site's purpose. If 80% of people here really do agree that "the CPU topic is no longer relevant," then I guess this site isn't as "pro AOS4" as some have claimed. I suppose the deal is that "right now" -- OK for the last several years in a very long gestation -- the PowerPC AOS4 has been the official way forward. Then farther in the future there will be the processor-agnostic AOS5. Still, any talk of making use of x86 boards in a foreseeable time frame had been, until this thread, quashed since it's outside of Hyperion's vision for the OS. Interesting now to see a break in the clouds here.

Quote:
Amiga is a complete system including both software and hardware.

One question is how to achieve sales on a scale that would make this profitable. The temptation is to have a software-only solution that could take advantage of cheap commodity hardware. What, then, is the rationale to forego that and take on the cost of providing hardware as well? Is the package just a matter of convenience for the consumer? Or does it have special features, etc., that aren't available with generic hardware? What is the vision for this hardware, if so, and where is the funding to come from to realize it?

Many "power users" are going to ask why they can't just install this new Amiga software on the high-end boxes they already own. This is equivalent to people who'd like to buy AOS4 to run on PPC Macs or Pegasoses. What is the answer to that? It has to be something reasonable and not just "we want to sell you a more expensive product."

There are examples of "special" computer packages where it's easy to see that the main purpose of the package is to justify a higher selling cost and increase the benefit for the seller. Unless the hardware is both special -- i.e., has capabilities that commodity hardware doesn't -- and price-competitive -- the package will be compared to more mainstream solutions -- it's difficult to see how it would be sellable.

Quote:
Enables

With Windows so ubiquitous, and becoming more plug-and-play, I think the bar has been raised significantly for any alternative system that claims to be easier to use. Not everyone in the targetted market will have Amiga experience, or any recent enough to be useful, nor will they want to spend time coming to support sites, etc. In contrast, people who know their way around Windows are everywhere; this expertise has arisen out of need, for sure, but now it's there and people can make use of it.

Also, pretty much everyone who talks about Amiga's ease of use is an experienced Amiga user, which is a bit tautological. I'm not sure there is a lot that is intrinsically easier, compared to other possibilities like Haiku, for someone who is not an old hand already. This begs the question of, if a Windows-alternative on a scale of millions is to be attempted, is AmigaOS really the operating system to go with rather than one of the many others around? Maybe, by the time the ramping up can happen, RebolOS?

Quote:
Creative People

This is the legacy and maybe the PR vision, but it doesn't apply particularly to anything currently "Amiga" I think, certainly no more than any other computing subset. Sure, there are creative people around doing good things, but the userbase/developer community has dwindled to a mere shadow. The many forum threads wishing for software are sad indicators of this.

Of course you want to target that demographic, but that means building-in the appeal. There is little available now to attract "creative people" as all the tools are on other platforms. Where are the resources to come up with tools for creative people, that will attract them from Windows and Mac (and Linux, etc.)? Where is the incentive for any developer or company to invest in a startup platform? It's the old chicken-and-egg again.

Quote:
Low Cost

An admirable goal, but some of the competition is no-cost (open source alternatives), and the question is how to achieve low-cost and specifying a hardware-software package in which the hardware itself adds value in unique ways and can compete with mainstream hardware on the benchmarks, etc. and price.

Quote:
it's going to require a clear vision and a grassroots unity of purpose.

Well, now I know we're doomed....

If the vision is made real in a way in which the positive aspects appeal to people more strongly than the negatives repel them, then it could bring people together. But so many remaining people in this community have developed calcified allegiances and preferences to one thing or another -- many in conflict -- that it might be best to start over with a new grassroots appeal that doesn't lay any claim to "Amiga". Or at least to make it clear that your vision is what Amiga originally was, but implemented in contemporary fashion -- which means disenfranchising people who cling to one element or another of the legacy that is not really relevant for that new vision.

I think fundamentally what you are talking about has a strong appeal to everyone here. But it looks like pie in the sky, in view of the many obstacles to achieving it. More specifics about what the platform would be capable of and how we could get from here to there are needed before it's possible to be very optimistic, I think.

-- gary_c

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 7:13:18
#156 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@billt

Quote:

AROS on Linux "at least can be" totally source-compatible with AmigaOS. AROS "could be" made so that Linux becomes transparent, I assume much like Amithlon. Linux software "could be" made to run from AROS cli onto AROS screens. We've seen other posts of yours claiming that a 68K emulator "could be" added to AROS to run native AmigaOS 3.x binaries.


Yes Bill, you know, "could be" means just that, it's possible but no one has done it yet. As for AROS being compatible with AmigaOS, I said "can be" just because there certainly are corner cases where it's not totally so. If one wanted, those corner cases could be smoothed out though.

Quote:

Sorry, but that's an awful lot of hypothetical stuff that doesn't sound like it's actually reality.


Oops, sorry, I thought this thread was about Carl's view of what an "Amiga" is, and therefore provided examples of the feasibility of those hypothetical ideas of mine. Silly me.

Quote:

OS4 "could be" made to do all of those same things if only the developers wanted to. Who is going to make all these things into real-life reality for AROS? Is this actually being worked on right now?


Aha, that's your point then... you read "AROS" and thought this was another (as in "another one you percieved as such", of course) attempt of mine at promoting AROS. Srry to burst your bubble, Bill, but there are no witches to hunt here, AROS was merely an example to illustrate, as said, the feasibility of the concept. I even used Amithlon as an example... the fact you just picked up AROS tells a lot about your attitude.

If it's being worked on? Why, does that matter? It would matter if I were here promoting AROS, but I'm not, therefore it doesn't matter. Not in this context.

Quote:

That, from the aros web site, doesn't sound like a far superior candidate in terms of the Amiga spirit than OS4 does... What, in your opinion, makes my assumption here wrong? I'm not asking for "could be" stuff, I'm asking for today's reality.


Read above, Bill. Be sure to read above.

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 7:17:04
#157 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@CodeSmith

Quote:

I'm not saying any of it is "bad", just that it doesn't make any business sense.


If that doesn't make any business sense, AmigaOS4 is doomed already. I'd have liked you to address the point I made about the current AmigaOS4 situation, but you didn't... Oh well.

Quote:

You're in the OSS world, so I can see how that would be a low priority for you. Any company hoping to make money from OS4 would probably see things differently though; the amiga community is way to small to make money off services, so retail software sales are going to be the only way to expand the user base (while making a profit) in the short term.


And who talked about making money off services? Is Apple making money off service, by any chance, with OSX? Somehow I believe I've just not been understood.

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 7:19:18
#158 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@billt

Quote:

He didn't exclude it any more strongly than he excluded AROS or any other OS.


And who said otherwise, Bill? Aren't you tired of your continuous witch hunt? I'm not a witch, damn it!

Quote:

And I don't remember him including or excluding anything by name. Or, like you said, if AROS was relevant to his Amiga definition, he'd have put it in the definition, therefor it isn't any more relevant than you appear to think OS4 is?


Indeed, it's not, and I have never stated nor implied the contrary. It'd help if you didn't just grep for "falemagn" and "AROS" in the threads you read.

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Dandy 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 7:42:11
#159 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@Carl-S

...
It never was cheap though, but it offered a lot more than the cheaper alternatives like PCs, until those started catching up.
...

Sorry, but I have to contradict here:
Back in 1987, when I was interested in learning CAD, I went to several computer shops here in Cologne and tried to get price informations on suitable computers for that.

I happened to visit an Commodore shop and asked them what a computer capable doing CAD would cost.

The guy at the shop showed me an Commodore 386 computer (the 386 architecture was brandnew and just had become available at this time and and started to replace all the 286 maschines) and meintioned that this one would cost 6.000 DM - but just with an Hercules monochrome graphics card and without sound.
Furthermore he said that an graphics card that is good enough to do CAD would cost annother 1.500 - 2.000 DM and that I should be prepared to pay up to15.000 DM for the CAD software itself.

I told him that this was way too expensive for me and that I heard of a new Commodore product called "Amiga" and that it was said it had excellent graphical capabilities as well as stereo sound onboard for just aroud 1000 DM.

The guy replied:
"Naaah - the Amiga is just a better gaming box - you can't do CAD with that - you'll need at least an 386 or even a Sun workstation for this purpose!"

So I did what seemed to be the only logical way for me:
6 months later I bought my first A500...

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 26-Oct-2006 7:51:19
#160 ]
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Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@gary_c

Quote:

Or at least to make it clear that your vision is what Amiga originally was, but implemented in contemporary fashion -- which means disenfranchising people who cling to one element or another of the legacy that is not really relevant for that new vision.


That's how I see things as well, and that's why I said that the current AmigaOS and AmigaOS-like implementations are kind of irrelevant. What is being talked about is an hypothetical system which "reminds you" of Amiga, but it's not necessarily Amiga.

I recall Jean-Louis Gassée had exactly that in mind, when he gave life to BeOS.

Last edited by falemagn on 26-Oct-2006 at 07:53 AM.

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