@resle

Quote:

Not sure if you really mean it or not but.. just in case, thanks ;)

It's sincere...honest!

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@thread

bump.

Do people still agree ?

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@asymetrix

Hmm, almost 4 years, I would agree, except for the low cost part. But then I paid $1000 for an A500 & over $3000 for my A4000T 15 yrs ago. Makes the x1000 look like a steal today, but the cost will be painful none the less.

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@asymetrix & Sundown

Do people still agree ?

Not me. I gave up during the court hearings and the show of bad management by BW.

[p]All goals are not equal. If you want to go for the big win, you sometimes have to give up a few lesser desires.[/b]

Huh? It sound like he's playing poker with a little chip-stack! All nice dreams and ideals and no practical reality. Maybe, just maybe 'H' can make that happen. They got a bigger chip-stack than AI ever knew.

Do people still agree ?

Bring it up again in four years!

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@Snuffy

His small deck brought us AmigaOS ;-P

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@Carl-S

I agree with everything up until this last one but I will explain why I say that as it is not because I don't agree with the statement.

Quote:

Low Cost: This has always been an important component of the Amiga dream. We want schools, families, community orgs, hobbyests, and small businesses to buy into Amiga. We want the starving artists. We want the young genius or rebellious kid. So, the barrier to entry must be low. In fact, if it were possible to rejuvenate old PC boxes and laptops to make them decent Amigas, I would be for that. (Remember how Linux got started?) There is also more to low cost than just the purchase price... cost includes support.

I totally agree this needs to happen BUT and it's a big one...

1.) AMIGA was not cheap when it first arrived. Fact
2.) 3rd party hardware was not cheap for it. Fact
3.) Floppy disks and other mediums were no cheaper than other platforms. Fact
*4.) Competing hardware was at a similar level. Atari for example. Fact
*5.) PC user-base was at a much more balanced level. The Personal Computer age was starting and everyone was after a piece.

I put a star against the last 2 points as they clearly are no longer anywhere near the statements they represent these days and they have a large effect on each other.

The AMIGA computer no longer has these entry points in to the PC market, HW, user-base or any fair ground to compete on.
What this means is, if there is to be AMIGA in this now established Billions strong computer market place, cost may be a little more to begin with, especially if it is to be alternate HW dependent systems. i.e won't run on already established, plentiful hardware like the base x86 platforms around. I do NOT mean Mac. The amount of available Mac Vs available better, cheaper x86 HW is not in the same ball park, so forget Mac.

LINUX however, does use the already present and established plentiful, powerful, expandable, hardware user-base. It's entry cost is already down but development is up to make drivers for all of this.

This means increased costs as the AMIGA hasn't existed for mainstream market or companies for well over a decade now and they have had NO Choice but to look elsewhere. Even for 3d effects, (Babylon 5) would no longer be done on an AMIGA.


*The AMIGA, as it stand now, can NOT provide the experience you have in your POLL.
Fact.


To again gain the experience you have in your poll, for a closed source AMIGA, will cost more Money, than a similar already established system and take more time to re-establish.

Nice poll though long live AMIGA

Last edited by SHADES on 15-May-2010 at 02:00 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 15-May-2010 at 01:57 AM.

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I still agree 100% with Carl S.

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@Carl-S
Needs to be past tense, it's not low cost, users number in the low thousands and it really doesn't enable anything anymore....

I'd say the Amiga today is a hobbyist platform that provides a unique retro experience bringing back the heady days of the late '80s. It can range from no or low cost (AMOS or UAE) to uber expensive (X1000 and some of the more collectable classics).

It provides users with a somewhat alternative view of how computer OSs should work and a closer to the silicon experience that modern computers don't.

@thread

How to define Amiga...

WWJD ??

(as in "what would Jay Miner (and company) do").

If Jay were still with us and co-workers, and Amiga still under their purview... they would have had to evolve the system just as much to remain relevant in these times. And the system they would have produced would have been just as distant from the originals of the 1980's as the X1000 will be.

To look for common traits between computers separated by over 20 years of electronics and OS advancement is a waste of energy. Sure the OS and hardware are so different as to defy any sort of "definition". Would we have it any other way?

IMO, Amiga is defined by the unique experience it imparted to its user. An experience that led you to have fun using your computer, rather than curse it. An OS that worked in more intuitive ways. A system that could do more, with less. Hardware that enabled new types of hardware and software, previously unseen. And a complete system that could be easily understood and wielded, without first mastering a sea of technical terms and acronyms that plague today's "mainstream". And thereby locking out many young minds from expressing true creativity and forcing them into perpetual browser, mp3 downloader, gamer mode only (as discussed in this thread):

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=24751&forum=2

Part of what draws me back to Amiga are these characteristics. A desire to see the system I grew up with, grow up itself and become a more modern, mature and capable equivalent to the original Amiga while remaining true to the core principles that made the system fun.

Implied in that is the expectation that the evolved system will be dramatically different and likely violate any definitions we might impose on it.

Economies of scale notwithstanding, I believe (subjectively) that Jay et. al. would have (or do) view the current crop of next-gen Amigas (present and future) as rightful heirs.

Last edited by jingof on 15-May-2010 at 07:15 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 15-May-2010 at 07:00 AM.

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AmigaOne X1000

The concept of definition is so often misused. People say they are defining when they are only describing what they see as important characteristics (which are incomplete). In order for his definition to be accurate:
1) All Amigas would have to fit the definition.
2) Only Amigas would fit the definition.
I would argue that since there have been computers that fit the definition, neither of these conditions has been true.

Going beyond that, while Amigas have been these things to many people, they certainly aren't the characteristics which make an Amiga an Amiga.

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@SHADES

in 1985 the amiga was technically cheap... if you compare it to an IBM pc.


http://oldcomputers.net/ibm5150.html

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@Darth_X

Indeed...

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@Snuffy

Please remember this was brought up because since 4 years ago alot of new users have come to Amiga and do not know about it.

Carl sassenrath the developer of AmigaOS kernal knows what Amiga is more than we do and what direction we should be going in.

As Carl himself said we have alot of enthusiasim - if only we work together on a common goal or direction we can move mountains.

The Amiga is about spreading AmigaOS on different systems, even though they may differ technically we should have a common goal of unity and compatibility if we can.

The low price was also Jay minors wish, but under current market conditions we fail, but that does not stop us from trying to achieve that goal over the years and to remind people on the way the focus of our platform.

If we keep supporting hardware developments like the X1000, Sams etc we help increasing users, further developent and more chance for larger production runs and then reach low prices that we all want and fulfills the Amigas goals.

Its also our responsibility to educate new users why we are here, what we are doing and where our roots come from and why. The original creators of Amiga had a vision of where they wanted Amiga to go in the future - its up to us to help ourselves and carry our Amiga flag into the future and remind people on our way of our original mission.

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@Carl-S

Agreed. CHEAP was also the key (A500 and A1200 sucees)
and we can hope EP440 will become it in course of time.

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@Carl-S

>The Amiga is a computer system

Good. It needs to be complete to be easy to use etc.
But it should not cost too much.

> that enables millions

IMO, as we have seen see on Amiga niche it is possible to have OK SW business with thousands of SW sales.
Tens of thousands should be reachable. Already that should give new strength to SW development.

Millions? It would require a lot of SW.
Baby steps...

> of creative people

YES!
Users being able to create and have fun instead of nursing the system.
OSX gives some of that, but it not friendly to people who like to have full control of things.
IMO it is possible to succeed in both at the same time if one has the will. (apple does not, M$ does not seem to have the know how)

>at a low cost of ownership.

Ouch!
This is hard to achieve.
One way towards this could be to enable great SW bundle to ship with the system.
Then, for example, 1000¤ would not seem too high price for full high end system (like x1000) for the mass market. (great SW bundle + multiGhz HW)
The low end should start below 500¤ without too many limitations.
(great SW bundle+Ghz HW)

Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Aug-2010 at 11:59 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Aug-2010 at 11:58 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

Quote:

1.) AMIGA was not cheap when it first arrived. Fact 2.) 3rd party hardware was not cheap for it. Fact 3.) Floppy disks and other mediums were no cheaper than other platforms. Fact *4.) Competing hardware was at a similar level. Atari for example. Fact

Amiga was cheap in comparison with other computers offering the same power (ie: IBM PC of that time). This is a fact.

But anyway, his vision isn't necessarily representative of the history... I don't think Amiga happened to be what they envisioned...

As for the "it can still happen today", I don't think so, unless some Steve Jobs with billions of money come into the place, fires almost everyone and start something from scratch... That's a lot of "if" ;)

One thing I agree with is the CPU: of course it doesn't matter anymore. Apple showed that quite well. The OS should be designed cpu-agnostic, from the ground up.

Last edited by Leo on 17-Aug-2010 at 12:18 PM.

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@KimmoK

What is this "full control of things" of which you speak? What is it that OS X restricts that you would like to have access to? What's being "nursed?" I haven't "nursed" OS X since 10.0, Windows since XP SP1. Yeah PCs get infected when watching p0rn or downloading pirated software, is this related to being creative? The vast majority of creative people seem to be doing just fine on Mac and PCs. What can Amiga offer to make creative people more creative?

Quote:

Users being able to create and have fun instead of nursing the system. OSX gives some of that, but it not friendly to people who like to have full control of things. IMO it is possible to succeed in both at the same time if one has the will. (apple does not, M$ does not seem to have the know how)

Moving target, what was cheap this month is pricey next month. X1000 should be ¤499 to be realistic and even then it's a bit out of it's league in similarly priced standard hardware. It'll only get worse as i7s start to dominate the market.

Also in order to bundle software you have to have it to bundle. It's a chicken and the egg sort of thing.

Quote:

Ouch! This is hard to achieve. One way towards this could be to enable great SW bundle to ship with the system. Then, for example, 1000¤ would not seem too high price for full high end system (like x1000) for the mass market. (great SW bundle + multiGhz HW) The low end should start below 500¤ without too many limitations. (great SW bundle+Ghz HW)

Last edited by persia on 17-Aug-2010 at 02:55 PM.

@persia

>What is this "full control of things" of which you speak?

AmigaOS is simple to master and it enables one to do anything and about everything.
(it has been so during 68k era, I hope that kind of philosophy remains/comes back)

> What is it that OS X restricts that you would like to have access to?

If one knows the Apple way of doing a thing, it's easy. Otherwise it's a nightmare. Everywhere.

> What's being "nursed?" I haven't "nursed" OS X since 10.0

OSX was too painfull to use. Not going into details yet again.
But I think it did not need "nursering".
I opted formatting the HDD & installing MOS. And there will be also PPC linux on the system one day.

> Windows since XP SP1. Yeah PCs get infected when watching p0rn or downloading pirated software, is this related to being creative?

I have not dared to surf pårn on windows box for about ten years. Infection is 100% sure sooner or later. Linux is the better for that on x86.
But my experience from XP is that it needs continuous nursering (sometimes daily security patching and rebooting). Even though I have not installed any "custom" SW. Only the company aproved & licenced ones. etc...
It's full of sh*t and also you know it.

>The vast majority of creative people seem to be doing just fine on Mac and PCs.

I do not know any person that really likes the way windows lets you do things. Do you?
For me, windows ways are nicer than Apple ways of doing things, but anyway I find windows disgusting to use (it does not manage to stay out of my way etc.).

>What can Amiga offer to make creative people more creative?

Less limitations. (IMO: Apple limits everything except one approved apple way, windows limits you all the time and almost everywhere. "Out of memory error" -kind of situations appear all the time without any sane reason, there seem to be a lot of limitations that are built in (similarly like the 640k "is enough for ever" thing in the 80's).)
In future it could offer more clever/suitable settings for user interface, etc... than the mainstream, that tends to offer only one way per system.
PowerUser -setting/environmentvariable (gives you full control)
AmigaUser -setting (gives you traditional Amiga things)
NewbieUser -setting (gives you one way, like Apple)
AppleUser - setting (mimics Apple logic for exApple people)
etc...

>X1000 should be ¤499 to be realistic
IIRC, when apple had first G5 systems, those cost about 3000¤.
x1000 will be the first designed for AOS system. It has to cost a lot.
But yes, it has the raw power of some ¤500 systems.

Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Aug-2010 at 07:32 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 17-Aug-2010 at 07:28 PM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@Carl-S

First:

It took me 4 years to discover this thread, but now I found it I have to say its great that you as an Amiga pioneer and one of the founders of the OS atleast occasionally come here !

Sometimes as a (retro)Amigan I feel somewhat orphaned and abandoned ..
Therefore you visiting this board was a glimmer of light

Another CommodoreAmiga pioneer Dave Haynie seems to have visited the NatAmi boards at a time as well.

And about your initial post:

Many may be surprised but I agree fully and on all counts , although I might say that the hardware should also have a possibility for a Hi End configuration and that WITHOUT it costing insane amounts of money.

The Amiga concept was and is definitively characterized by being a highly integrated system , OS and HARDWARE FOR the masses, at a low cost, while having hardware that could WOW and AWE everyone by ingenious design and capability.

Unfortunately the hardware has been severly lacking since the demise of Commodore. And somewhat lacking at the end of Commodore due to the management decisions there IMHO.

Now a Hi End solution might be on the horizon in the form of the AmigaONE X1000.
I would say its more a "AmigaOS4 series capable computer" than "an Amiga".

We need the low end also !! The affordable low end, the 90% classic compatible low end. And a X1000 class -NextGen- low end. X500 anyone ?

AROS as Amigalike OS on x86 shows great promise, but it needs more developers and a lot of debugging, in my experience.

MorphOS looks good too, but it has limited hardware availabilty.
Ok sorry this was not short, but I hope it was readable..
Thanks.

EDIT1: I think I forgot one thing and that is that Amiga in contrast to the current Windows, and MacOSX, iphone etc is about enabling people to be CREATIVE !

Open systems NOT CLOSED ! A computer you can -trust-,
not a monolithic system that phones home to Microsoft every two minutes ...

Hobbyist creative system. And thank you , Id like a new 8bit C6x as well That was even more fun to program ..

Last edited by Mr_DBUG on 17-Aug-2010 at 08:11 PM.

@KimmoK

Name three. Since it's "everywhere" you should be able to name a dozen off the top of your head...

Quote:

> What is it that OS X restricts that you would like to have access to? If one knows the Apple way of doing a thing, it's easy. Otherwise it's a nightmare. Everywhere.

Not going into details or can't because it's a baseless opinion?

Quote:

OSX was too painfull to use. Not going into details yet again. But I think it did not need "nursering".

Yeah, better the Amiga way, where we totally disregard licensing...

Patches are part of a living OS. Why 4.1? Why not just run 4.0 AmigaOS? Why isn't installing 4.1 "nursering?"

Quote:

Infection is 100% sure sooner or later. Linux is the better for that on x86. But my experience from XP is that it needs continuous nursering (sometimes daily security patching and rebooting). Even though I have not installed any "custom" SW. Only the company aproved & licenced ones. etc...

What ways? What does Windows do for you that OS X does not? Command instead of Control? What is only the Apple way? If there are a thousand things you can name just one or two, can't you?

Quote:

For me, windows ways are nicer than Apple ways of doing things, but anyway I find windows disgusting to use (it does not manage to stay out of my way etc.).

Certainly fewer choices in software and hardware, but I can't see how that would make someone more creative?

Quote:

Less limitations.

I've never seen this "out of memory" thing on a PC. When does it occur? If you have 4 gigs of memory and 4 gigs of virtual that would mean 8 gigs, what are you doing that you run out of memory?

Quote:

"Out of memory error" -kind of situations appear all the time without any sane reason, there seem to be a lot of limitations that are built in

Who's going to write the code into OS 4 to do this? There's zero code there to do this at present, everyone is root, though arguably there are less things root can do in AmigaOS than Linux, but still root.

Quote:

n future it could offer more clever/suitable settings for user interface, etc... than the mainstream, that tends to offer only one way per system. PowerUser -setting/environmentvariable (gives you full control) AmigaUser -setting (gives you traditional Amiga things) NewbieUser -setting (gives you one way, like Apple) AppleUser - setting (mimics Apple logic for exApple people)

What's the price of tea in China? Historical pricing is meaningless. I buy in todays market, in today's market ¤2000 for a