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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
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Poll : Do you agree or disagree?
Yes
No
Not sure
 
PosterThread
damocles 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 17-Aug-2010 23:36:12
#221 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

Yeah, I agree with Carl_S. Amiga (be it AROS/MOS/OS4) does not have the apps nor games to draw people into expensive hardware. It's gotta be cheap (C64 type cheap) for people to buy it for S&Gs, rebel against status quo, or because it's the only thing they can afford that is not a OLPC device. Once you have a huge base, then you can go for some really high end stuff to skim the cream off of. It's about numbers, "Amiga" needs numbers in the tens of thousands, to be economically viable and have a deep pool of developers.


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tiffers 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 0:04:39
#222 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Jun-2007
Posts: 345
From: Perth, Western Australia

@asymetrix

Quote:

asymetrix wrote:
@thread

bump.

Do people still agree ?



Gah! I want those 2 hours of my life back. I thought it was a new exciting thread started by Carl S. I get to page 9 before I realise it's the old thread stared 4 years ago.

Interesting though, that I see comments from people who weren't on my radar back then, and now I see how much they haven't changed even after 4 years have gone by and I've become more aware of their posting style.

Infact, I'm not sure if I was a regular here when this thread started, so maybe that's another reason why I didn't see it for a 4 yr old thread.

tiffers

Last edited by tiffers on 18-Aug-2010 at 12:06 AM.

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Gebrochen 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 0:26:12
#223 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1407
From: Australia, VIC

@Carl-S

Responding to your first post,

With such a wonderful black and white viewpoints you got flowing around, it seems I am in agreeance.

I am unable to see a flaw in your logic.

BUT

This plan of yours probably wont take effect, and at the same time, ARM architecture is also getting cheaper by the day, like, er, some powerful phones being considered as portable computers nowadays that can call people.

hehe

OK, so now Im in the pipedream of seeing Amiga OS4.x or OS5 on a phone.

Cheers

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persia 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 1:55:35
#224 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1057
From: Unknown

@Gebrochen

In order to fit an OS into a mobile phone or tablet you really need to make major alterations. If there ever would be a mobile AmigaOS (and I don't think there will be) it would not be recognisable. Look at iOS and OS X, they're the same OS but they look completely different.

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Gebrochen 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 2:41:18
#225 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1407
From: Australia, VIC

@persia

Like I said, probably nothing more then a pipedream for me.

I do agree on what you said, the Amiga OS would most likely look different on a phone, versus the OS for desktop / laptop / netbook useage.

Cheers

_________________
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CD32 / SX1 Expansion & 98 titles
A500 with HxC & 1mb Chip Ram, Flicker Fixer Box
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AROS Netbook
A1000 with 1.5MB RAM.
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Gebrochen 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 3:04:19
#226 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Nov-2008
Posts: 1407
From: Australia, VIC

@KimmoK

Post #288 Think it was,

Man, your spittin your words exactly how I feel when I operate these OS'es.

Well

On another note, my uncle bought an iMac, bearing in mind this is x86 hardware, for $2,800 dollars, and thats insanely expensive in my opinion.

My friend, wanted to go for MAC, but the custom setup he wanted wouldve costed him 16,000 grand, the same setup for his newly found windows machine only cost him 5,500 grand. Grand = thousand. (6 core at 64bit with 12 gig ram, etc)

So, you can see, that the x1000 with its specs, should not be more then 2,500 thousand dollars, at dual core 64bit.

But thats just my opinion.

ALSO

It may cost an australian 3 thousand dollars or more to get an x1000, which I myself may be willing to pay for, just to have an Amiga system that wont feel outdated for me with my everyday use for another 5 or so years time.

x86 systems need constant upgrading, updating for different reasons, not due to word processing power, not even software, more or less, generally its the gamers that are constantly finding their x86 systems out of date within 6 month periods.

Again, Im still using my PS3, this is how hardware should be, but then, I guess its all about the money, show me the money, type of attitude rather then what the original A1000 did, was able to use it for my school work, games, etc, for ten years.

I suspect the PS3 will also have a similar effect, and last me 7 years before a PS4 may come out, for examples sake.

Cheers

_________________
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CD32 / SX1 Expansion & 98 titles
A500 with HxC & 1mb Chip Ram, Flicker Fixer Box
C=OS (Usa) Laptops
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A1000 with 1.5MB RAM.
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CodeSmith 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 3:07:12
#227 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

W00t! zombie thread!

"The Amiga is a computer system that enables millions of creative people at a low cost of ownership."

I know I'm going to get flamed to hell and back for saying this (and I did notice the subtle jab by Carl), but that sounds a heck of a lot like a modern x86 PC running Windows.

My evidence for this scandalous slander:

Computer system: An x86 PC is a computer system.

Enables millions of creative people: I think it's fair to say that users of Adobe's tools qualify as creative people - from the bedroom coder writing a Flash game to the professional artist in any number of industries using Creative Suite. And Adobe is just one of hundreds of thousands of groups (professional and amateur) writing Windows software. Something similar could be said for MacOS, but...

At low cost of ownership: Here's where Windows beats MacOS. Apple undeniably has the nicer toys, but you do pay for them. Back to the point, you can buy a decent PC running win7 for $200, even less if you shop around. Once you've spent the dough, there are tons of cheap and free software you can use if can't/won't shell out for the pricier stuff.

I have a hunch that Carl's definition is the vision of the original Lorraine team 30 years ago. Back then it was amazing, nowadays it's expected. Problem is that people still want to attach that "amazingness" to something called Amiga, and so they attach disproportionate importance to mere details. Common examples are the chipset, the CPU and the OS. I can pretty much guarantee that, had CBM survived until now, they wouldn't be making custom chips - they'd get off-the shelf parts from ATI or NVidia. Why? Simple: I have a friend who works for NVidia, and he's told me they only hire PhDs with backgrounds in math or CS, and they do one thing: chipsets. Try competing with that, while also trying to make the rest of the computer and OS. Similarly, assuming that the rest of the industry had evolved the way it did, CBM would have done the same as Apple and a 2010 CBM Amiga would have had an Intel CPU. The OS - Apple ditched the old MacOS for a Unix clone. Would CBM have stayed with an OS with no memory protection and a 2GB RAM limit into the 2000s? Doubtful: a modern virus would be just about impossible to defend against, and memory is so cheap that they'd be derided for not supporting larger sizes. Would they have spent millions of dollars writing an OS from scratch that can compete with Windows? Unlikely (Apple had the resources and they decided against, so it's fair to assume CBM would have done the same). Would they have licensed Windows? CBM had a long history with Microsoft, back from the 70s all the way to the early 90s, so it's certainly possible. In other words, had CBM survived until now and I stayed a loyal customer, I suspect the computer I'd be typing this in would not be terribly different that what it is right now. Does any of that affect the original vision of "a computer system that enables millions of creative people at a low cost of ownership"? No.

Carl's definition of "amiga" is simply what we've all come to expect from computers in the 21st century. We should be thankful that we were lucky enough to get there a few years ahead of the crowd.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 18-Aug-2010 at 03:09 AM.

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agami 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 4:05:43
#228 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 486
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Gebrochen

Quote:
wouldve costed him 16,000 grand


16,000 grand, that's 16 million. That's a very expensive setup :)

I had no problem spending $2,900.00 earlier this year to get a 27" iMac w/ Core i7
That's because I know I can get over $2,900.00 of productivity out of it over the next 1-2 years. Apart from productivity I'm also going to get a lot of entertainment out of it with music, movies, and games; I'm currently playing Starcraft 2 and it is awesome. On top of all that I also boot into Windows 7 from time to time to play other games and run specific applications. It's also the hub for my mobile computing with the iPad and the iPhone.

When you get this much out, it's not such a tall order to put that much in.

I agree, for us in Australia we're looking at ~A$3000.00 for the X1000. I can't see myself spending that much on a machine that is going to return much less than the one I outlined above.

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opi 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 5:37:23
#229 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@KimmoK

Quote:
I do not know any person that really likes the way windows lets you do things. Do you?


Let me think. Yes. Quite a lot. I even know a girl that flat out refuses to use OS X and runs XP on her iMac. Her boyfriend is Apple fanboy so it's fun to watch him cringe everytime it boots. Most of people doing stuff does not really care that much. Windows 7 made their experience even smoother.

I wonder if Amigans will ever outgrow their puberty and stop complainging about "peeesees", "M$", "crApple" and other stuff that changed in last 15 years.

Quote:
Less limitations.


Ha ha ha ha. My gwad. If you'd go with "It give you less therefor forcing you to be creative" I would write it off as cheap hipsterism. But if you think for anyone who is really a creative dude or gal lacks a simple startup-sequence and thus is limited, you're oh-so-wrong.

I have never heard from any designer "I wish I could edit text files to make my computer boot differently" or "I wish DLL where better named so I could manage them by hand".

Quote:
IIRC, when apple had first G5 systems, those cost about 3000¤.


Comparing Apples to Amigas again? G5 was powerhorse running suit of applications recognized in Real World. X1000 is hobbyist plaything.

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KimmoK 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 8:21:22
#230 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@opi

>I wonder if Amigans will ever outgrow their puberty and stop complainging about "peeesees", "M$", "crApple" and other stuff that changed in last 15 years.

I did not mean Amigans. At work XP is daily trouble.

>>Less limitations.
>Ha ha ha ha. My gwad. If you'd go with "It give you less therefor forcing you to be creative" I would write it off as cheap hipsterism. But if you think for anyone who is really a creative dude or gal lacks a simple startup-sequence and thus is limited, you're oh-so-wrong.

For example on AOS the only real limitation on multitasking was the available amount of RAM. We had 2Gb address space when PC had 640k.
Today. I can not even run two copies of rhapsody modeler without XP limitations.

And as I indicated, I hope AOS will grow back to "no limitations" mode.

(win7 might be aproved @ work in next five years??? until then...)

>I have never heard from any designer "I wish I could edit text files to make my computer boot differently" or "I wish DLL where better named so I could manage them by hand".

People do not know the advantage before someone shows it to them. etc...

>>IIRC, when apple had first G5 systems, those cost about 3000¤.
>Comparing Apples to Amigas again? G5 was powerhorse running suit of applications recognized in Real World. X1000 is hobbyist plaything.

Just comparing the price of 100% new HWs @ launch.

Last edited by KimmoK on 18-Aug-2010 at 08:23 AM.

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KimmoK 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 8:35:38
#231 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@persia

>Name three.

1. Handling RW ROM media.
2. Backup data.
3. Use HW from mainstream PC shop.

>Patches are part of a living OS.

But it can be made transpaent.
For example linux capability to change the kernel and get you back to where you were is a very pleasant feature.
Also the capability to patch everything via just one click is better than the win way.
Win is just designed to generate money to M$. Not to please users.

>Certainly fewer choices in software and hardware, but I can't see how that would make someone more creative?

Traditionally Amiga has been the enabler of everything. I did things like video editing and multimedia while 99% of the PC users did not have the luxury.

>I've never seen this "out of memory" thing on a PC.

Usually it's not real out of memory thing. For example to run two copies of rhapsody (+outlook) one needs to find the work arounds @ M$ support site. Otherwise system runs out of "resources" (the "out of memory" kind of situation).

Often one need to limit the amount of running apps, even though there's 3GB free RAM and 7 CPU threads idle.

about user settings
>Who's going to write the code into OS 4 to do this?

We. In time.
One part of the idea would be to develop themes that make things familiar for some user group.

Last edited by KimmoK on 18-Aug-2010 at 08:38 AM.

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Leo 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 8:54:52
#232 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1562
From: Unknown

Quote:

I've never seen this "out of memory" thing on a PC. When does it occur? If you have 4 gigs of memory and 4 gigs of virtual that would mean 8 gigs, what are you doing that you run out of memory?

I saw a lot of "out of memory" error on the Amiga though, especially when it comes to chip memory (or graphics memory) today...

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vidarh 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 9:04:38
#233 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@agami

Quote:
I agree, for us in Australia we're looking at ~A$3000.00 for the X1000. I can't see myself spending that much on a machine that is going to return much less than the one I outlined above.


It's down to different tastes, largely. The mainstream is likely to think like you, and that's ok.

Then there's people like me. I flat out refuse to have Windows on any of my home machines (though I do have a VirtualBox setup of Vista somewhere for the very rare case where I need to bugfix web apps on IE) - after using AmigaOS, Linux and OS X, using Windows feels like having both my arms tied behind my back. I feel crippled, despite having "had to" use WIndows in several jobs.

Of AmigaOS, Linux and OS X there are different things I like about each of them, with AmigaOS and Linux my clear favorites. But every time I use Linux I can't help but be aware of how abysmal all the file managers are (and how much screen real estate they waste) - the OS X one is marginally better; how much I detest the file requesters (I still prefer the ASL requester...); how wasteful it is (both my Linux and OS X machine at work frequently waste hundreds of MB on my open terminal windows, because of lazy programmers); how I miss the simplicity and flexibility.

At the same time I recognize that my needs are far greater now than when I used my old Amiga's.

I'm willing to pay quite a bit to get a system that gives me an updated version of the old Amiga experience. If I desperately need the extra performance or something not available on it, I have my Linux server and laptops, so it doesn't need to be suitable as my only machine. It just needs to be *good enough* to give me enough hours of reprieve from working with systems that are no fun.

I contribute to AROS too and hope to be able to use that more and more as well, but to me the hardware is part of the appeal of going for an box for AmigaOS4 - I'm willing to pay extra for something "different" just for the geek and fun factor of it.

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vidarh 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 9:13:38
#234 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@Leo

Frankly I wish I'd see *more* out of memory errors (EDIT: on OS X, Windows, Linux) rather than having the system become unusable due to swapping.

On my Macbook at work, I regularly (at least twice a day) have the machine almost freeze up because one or other program is leaking memory like a sieve and it's finally grown big enough to cause the disk to thrash like crazy.

For all intents and purposes, for the user that means you're out of memory. Doesn't matter that the OS is still honoring requests - the system is unusable if you don't free up memory. But due to the way applications today tend to be written to assume pretty much "unlimited" memory, that generally means you have to kill or restart apps to reclaim memory, and you can expect them to misbehave horribly if they actually don't get the memory they try to allocate (if they don't just crash).

The user experience in those cases would be far better if apps didn't get more memory and developers were forced to gracefully deal with low memory situations.

And no, "more memory" is not the solution. A couple of years back I could manage fine with 1GB, now 4GB is just bearable, even without doing anything heavy - apps grow to use whatever amount of memory is "common", and leaks take care of the rest.

Last edited by vidarh on 18-Aug-2010 at 09:14 AM.

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Fairdinkem 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 10:07:10
#235 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Feb-2010
Posts: 468
From: Victoria, Australia

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
W00t! zombie thread!

"The Amiga is a computer system that enables millions of creative people at a low cost of ownership."

I know I'm going to get flamed to hell and back for saying this (and I did notice the subtle jab by Carl), but that sounds a heck of a lot like a modern x86 PC running Windows.

My evidence for this scandalous slander:

Computer system: An x86 PC is a computer system.

Enables millions of creative people: I think it's fair to say that users of Adobe's tools qualify as creative people - from the bedroom coder writing a Flash game to the professional artist in any number of industries using Creative Suite. And Adobe is just one of hundreds of thousands of groups (professional and amateur) writing Windows software. Something similar could be said for MacOS, but...

At low cost of ownership: Here's where Windows beats MacOS. Apple undeniably has the nicer toys, but you do pay for them. Back to the point, you can buy a decent PC running win7 for $200, even less if you shop around. Once you've spent the dough, there are tons of cheap and free software you can use if can't/won't shell out for the pricier stuff.

I have a hunch that Carl's definition is the vision of the original Lorraine team 30 years ago. Back then it was amazing, nowadays it's expected. Problem is that people still want to attach that "amazingness" to something called Amiga, and so they attach disproportionate importance to mere details. Common examples are the chipset, the CPU and the OS. I can pretty much guarantee that, had CBM survived until now, they wouldn't be making custom chips - they'd get off-the shelf parts from ATI or NVidia. Why? Simple: I have a friend who works for NVidia, and he's told me they only hire PhDs with backgrounds in math or CS, and they do one thing: chipsets. Try competing with that, while also trying to make the rest of the computer and OS. Similarly, assuming that the rest of the industry had evolved the way it did, CBM would have done the same as Apple and a 2010 CBM Amiga would have had an Intel CPU. The OS - Apple ditched the old MacOS for a Unix clone. Would CBM have stayed with an OS with no memory protection and a 2GB RAM limit into the 2000s? Doubtful: a modern virus would be just about impossible to defend against, and memory is so cheap that they'd be derided for not supporting larger sizes. Would they have spent millions of dollars writing an OS from scratch that can compete with Windows? Unlikely (Apple had the resources and they decided against, so it's fair to assume CBM would have done the same). Would they have licensed Windows? CBM had a long history with Microsoft, back from the 70s all the way to the early 90s, so it's certainly possible. In other words, had CBM survived until now and I stayed a loyal customer, I suspect the computer I'd be typing this in would not be terribly different that what it is right now. Does any of that affect the original vision of "a computer system that enables millions of creative people at a low cost of ownership"? No.

Carl's definition of "amiga" is simply what we've all come to expect from computers in the 21st century. We should be thankful that we were lucky enough to get there a few years ahead of the crowd.


Man I totally agree with you..... I guess we can both be flamed.

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Mechanic 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 12:37:27
#236 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@vidarh

Quote:

It's down to different tastes

AND
Quote:

but to me the hardware is part of the appeal of going for an box for AmigaOS4 - I'm willing to pay extra for something "different" just for the geek and fun factor of it.

OOoohh,,,what you said. You do know you're going to hell for that ?

Quote:

now 4GB is just bearable, even without doing anything heavy - apps grow to use whatever amount of memory is "common", and leaks take care of the rest.


Is that anything like 'JUNK ACCUMULATES TO FILL ALL AVAILABLE SPACE' ?

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agami 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 13:13:42
#237 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 486
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Carl-S

I hope you don't mind, but I was inspired to give your definition a bit of a 2010 makeover.

CS - The Amiga is a computer system that enables millions of creative people at a low cost of ownership.

EC - The Amiga is a digital platform that empowers millions of individuals to be creative and challenge conventional wisdom at a relatively low cost entry point and scalable value proposition.

CS - Are you surprised I define Amiga that way? Not in terms of CPU, MHz, bus, chips, or apps? Here's what I mean...

CS - Computer System:
Amiga is a complete system including both software and hardware. You want people to be able to buy the entire package, not just the "kit". For software, from what I've seen, I think OS4 does it quite well. For hardware, I don't care what CPU, as long as it can fully satisfy the rest of the definition below. (Remember that I was one of the main 68000 supporters, but I think the CPU topic is no longer relevant.)

EC - Digital Platform:
Amiga is the complete experience. You want people to engage immediately with their new  digital platform. For software, OS4 doesn't come even close, as it is the realization of a strategy from 10 years ago and has arrived at least 5 years too late. Windows and Mac OS X are improved versions of their 90's counterparts. For hardware, it's important to have the right combination of silicon and copper that will empower users. Though most users these days couldn't care less what that combination is.

CS - Enables:
This is the action verb. To me this word is more than just the opposite of disable (e.g. Windows), it means to empower. The computer should work for people, not the other way around. (As I've said before.)

EC - Empowers:
This is the action verb. Empower is different from enable, e.g. Pretty much every computing platform out there 'enables' users to blog, but only a few 'empower' them to do so. 
It's about making the achieving of outcomes easy and fun, so that an individual looks forward to repeating the experience. The platform should work for the user, not the other way around. (Kind of what CS has said many times before.)

CS - Millions:
Do we want just a few Amiga users or do we want millions? I still believe in what we started back in 1985. Millions of users gives us a true marketplace where hundreds of products can afford to be developed, supported, and thrive.

EC - Millions:
I agree with CS, We need more than just a few thousand. As I've said before, 'thousands' is endangered species level. The early adopters should count in the hundreds of thousands, but the aim is to empower millions. A thriving digital ecosystem needs millions of participants.

CS - Creative People:
Creative people solve problems. They think. They enhance. The legacy of Amiga is the amazing list of doers, thinkers, artists, musicians, programmers, and even CEOs who have owned and used Amiga over the last two decades. Those are the kind of people you want using your system - not droids. And also, I don't just mean creative users, I am also talking about creative developers and entrepreneurs who make it possible from the start.

EC - Be Creative and Challenge Conventional Wisdom:
Every individual has the potential to be a more creative version of themselves, given the right set of conditions. I know CS didn’t mean to only target people who are already considered to be creative; I’m just trying to put it more succinctly.
The pinnacle of creativity is the challenging of conventional wisdom, no matter the discipline. Creativity is welcomed everywhere and not just in the arts; a plumber figuring out a better flow control system, a project manager designing a new methodology for highly collaborative global teams, a farmer developing an out-of-field seed germination system, etc.

CS - Low Cost:
This has always been an important component of the Amiga dream. We want schools, families, community orgs, hobbyests, and small businesses to buy into Amiga. We want the starving artists. We want the young genius or rebellious kid. So, the barrier to entry must be low. In fact, if it were possible to rejuvenate old PC boxes and laptops to make them decent Amigas, I would be for that. (Remember how Linux got started?) There is also more to low cost than just the purchase price... cost includes support.

EC – Relatively Low Cost of Entry and Scalable Value Proposition:
Everything CS has stated above is always valid, the key is execution. The Amiga was always, and any new Amiga should be, an experience. Not every device in the range needs to be low cost e.g. A2000, A4000 but a relatively low entry price is important in market conversion e.g. A500, A1200. In the old days you’d release the expensive box first and then the cut-down, and back then the expensive box did everything (and then some) that the equally or higher priced competition units could. The X1000 does not fit this model so don’t even go there.

Relatively Low does not mean lower than the competition (there is always competition), it means that it constitutes by most norms, good value for money. Scalable value proposition means that once I’ve outgrown my entry level experience, I can scale up with a good deal of retention of investment in my entry level experience. This adds to how much value is perceived in the initial conversion.

CS - Final Note
I know that many current users will not agree with all these points (perhaps mostly the last). But, it's important to start with the top level definition. That's how we made the original Amiga. We decided what was most important.

All goals are not equal. If you want to go for the big win, you sometimes have to give up a few lesser desires.

I would love to see the Amiga return someday as a force in the computing arena. I actually think it is possible, as insane as that may sound. But, it's going to require a clear vision and a grassroots unity of purpose.

EC - Final Note
It’s impossible to have 100% agreement on anything. Even 2+2=4 is not universally agreed upon (look-up Irrational Numbers). The world does not operate on reality but on the perception of reality. There’s no right or wrong, only opinion. Whether you agree with CS’s points or my updated take on them doesn’t matter. CS was there when a group of people dared to make magic happen. In the 21st century world of commercial pragmatism and with most of the lines being drawn it’s somewhat of a moot point.

I thank CS for taking the time a while back to write his view down; it inspired me to write the above personal version.

I too would love to see a new Amiga enter the market as a force in the digital arena. I know it’s possible, it just requires millions of dollars to get there. In the 80’s Hi-Toro had $7M, which roughly translates to $14M (CPI based) today. Luckily with what has been going on in India, China, and South Korea over the past decade you wouldn’t need $14M, I believe it could be done with about $7M, and as soon as I can get $5M-$7M I’ll get right on it. No joke. Are there any wealthy dentists out there wanting to be part of something extraordinary?b

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damocles 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 13:25:27
#238 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@agami

Quote:
I too would love to see a new Amiga enter the market as a force in the digital arena. I know it’s possible, it just requires millions of dollars to get there. In the 80’s Hi-Toro had $7M, which roughly translates to $14M (CPI based) today. Luckily with what has been going on in India, China, and South Korea over the past decade you wouldn’t need $14M, I believe it could be done with about $7M, and as soon as I can get $5M-$7M I’ll get right on it. No joke. Are there any wealthy dentists out there wanting to be part of something extraordinary?


What your missing on this is timing. Hi-Toro was at the right place and at the right time during a huge growth cycle. Fast forward 25+ years later, that growth cycle is long gone for desktops as desktop sales % of total computer sales is fading. The technology advances we are seeing on a yearly level is astounding as R&D departments are hiring the best and brightest to advance the technology as fast as possible in order to get ahead of the competition with massive funding back them.

The past is never going to be repeated, worry about developing something for the future markets instead.

_________________
Dammy

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arix-OS/414578091930728
Unless otherwise noted, I only speak for myself.

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persia 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 13:33:50
#239 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1057
From: Unknown

@Fairdinkem

I have to agree, Adobe comes the closest to empowering people to actually do things than any other company I can think of. An OS is a program loader for most people, the empowerment comes in the programs. What can I create?

This is what made the Amiga empowering in the '80s. When I bought my Amiga there was a combination of hardware and software that let me be creative. That's no longer the case. Premiere, Final Cut, Avid etc run rings around Video Toaster. Photoshop makes deluxe paint look like a kids program. etc etc

Creativity and empowerment depend on the software more than anything and for Amiga the software isn't there.

How does a pricey computer with virtually no modern software empower anyone?

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persia 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 18-Aug-2010 13:55:51
#240 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2009
Posts: 1057
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

I'm curious what you mean by RW ROM? CDs and DVDs? What does OS X restrict you from using on these? Not seeing all the files in a GUI? There's a simple fix for that, I've done to all my Macs.

Backup? Time Machine has actually gotten me to do regular backups. It's a neat piece of software.

Using HW from a PC shop? This may only be a driver problem, if that's true it's a thousand times worse in AmigaOS.

Quote:
>Name three.

1. Handling RW ROM media.
2. Backup data.
3. Use HW from mainstream PC shop.


I find myself in a difficult position defending Windows, because I've abandoned it for OS X. But in general Windows does ok loading programs, which is an OS's primary purpose.

Quote:
>Patches are part of a living OS.

But it can be made transpaent.
For example linux capability to change the kernel and get you back to where you were is a very pleasant feature.
Also the capability to patch everything via just one click is better than the win way.
Win is just designed to generate money to M$. Not to please users.


Now here I have to agree, some software is very badly written. There needs to be a way to clean memory when these leaky programs are running. Selling programs with memory leaks should be a corporal offence ;)

>I've never seen this "out of memory" thing on a PC.

Usually it's not real out of memory thing. For example to run two copies of rhapsody (+outlook) one needs to find the work arounds @ M$ support site. Otherwise system runs out of "resources" (the "out of memory" kind of situation).

Often one need to limit the amount of running apps, even though there's 3GB free RAM and 7 CPU threads idle.

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