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Syperhawk 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 3:04:19
#21 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2005
Posts: 270
From: Cape Breton,Nova Scotia CANADA

@ironfist

I dont think its ACK

SyperHawk

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Syperhawk 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 3:09:24
#22 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2005
Posts: 270
From: Cape Breton,Nova Scotia CANADA

@wegster
Whats the SPECS of the Panda?

SyperHawk


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wegster 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 3:30:02
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Syperhawk

Quote:

Syperhawk wrote:
@wegster
Whats the SPECS of the Panda?

SyperHawk


Panda is a Chinese eval STB board, from UDTech. Troika is supposed to be making some changes, but AFAIK, they haven't been made public...guessing the form factor, dunno what else.

Here's board info from UDTech anyways:
UDTech, maker of panda board


1.2GHz G4 (can accept up to 1.7GHz CPU)
1 DDR2-SDRAM slot
Gbit ethernet
USB2
2x SATA (+ PATA, iirc?)
5.1 audio
mini-pci slots (same electrically as PCI, so could be changed)
smartcard slot
GFX are questionable as to what real resultion will support, but expect over the 1024x768 shown on the UDTech site..maybe someone from Troika will eventually update their specs to what they intend on making available..until then...dunno.

It's an odd, but not bad seeming board. make it standard form factor, and replace mini-PCI with PCI, and we'lll see where pricing winds up. It's using a TSI-109, so it would at least rid us of Articia and Via 'oddities.' I do hope they'll be adding another socket for RAM, though..

Last edited by wegster on 30-Oct-2006 at 04:02 AM.

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ironfist 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 6:46:11
#24 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2004
Posts: 770
From: Pegasos.org

Syperhawk:
"I dont think its ACK"

Then who would it be? ACK told us he would be there
and AFAIK he failed to show up?

Isn't this abit too convenient when also Bill McEwen
didn't come? There's no conspiracy here. I'm 100%
sure Bill was going to announce ACK as a new
board manufacturer and when he couldn't come ACK
stayed home as well. He knew he would be buried
with questions about the license issues..

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COBRA 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 7:33:57
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@wegster

Quote:
PS - if 500 Euros is for the board only, I see things continue to go in the wrong direction.


Target price for a 667MHz board with 256MB RAM + OS4 is 450 EUR + VAT. Note that the price of OS4 is around 120 EUR. This is considerably cheaper than the uA1 was. I think that probably the most expensive part of the board is the Radeon chip which is far more powerful than the one on the uA1.

Last edited by COBRA on 30-Oct-2006 at 07:35 AM.

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BigBentheAussie 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 7:45:15
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

Is the FPGA optional?
I hope not, because that would be a great differentiator for Amiga hardware.
No custom chips. No sweat....let's define them on the FPGA.
Sort of a geeks dream.

It was also mentioned that larger FPGAs could be used on the board.
Does anyone know how expensive the FPGAs actually are?

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.

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COBRA 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 7:57:20
#27 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@BigBentheAussie

FPGA will be standard, not optional. For the samantha it's possible to use the Lattice LFXP6,LFXP10,LFXP15 or LFXP20 (they're pin-compatible). Currently the plan is to use the LFXP6, but if price will be low enough they might go with one of the bigger ones instead (the LFXP10 costs about 10 EUR more AFAIK).

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ChrisH 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 9:30:25
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@elwood who said Quote:
Of course they hope to finish it before but April is the deadline.

6 more months?!? (bashes head against wall)

Honestly, we could port OS4 to the Pegasos or Efika in that time - and could have *already* been selling it with OS4 if Hyperion and/or Amiga Inc hadn't refused to even consider something touched by Genesi

(bashes head against wall again)

edit: I am soooo glad that I gave-up expecting any OS4 machine any time soon, as otherwise I would have punched a hole in my monitor by now.

Last edited by ChrisH on 30-Oct-2006 at 09:56 AM.

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Crumb 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 9:37:57
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@COBRA

500¤ is still expensive for that machine. The cpu won't be able to move triangles faster than a 750GX so why including a more expensive Radeon as standard?

too expensive to be low-cost, poor features to be a normal desktop...

uA1 was never cheaper, so being cheaper than uA1 is not something "special", considering this machine is much slower compared to it.

Emulators like Petunia take advantage of L2 cache... running on a L2 cache-less cpu will affect performance badly.

If this machine sold for 300¤+OS4 VAT included it may make sense even if it wasn't very cheap but at this price I hope they don't expect to sell many.

500¤! Wouldn't make more sense to pay 120¤ for a PSX3 version of OS4?

I hope machines at sensible prices appear as this is too expensive to change the current situation.

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COBRA 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 10:33:56
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Crumb

Quote:
The cpu won't be able to move triangles faster than a 750GX so why including a more expensive Radeon as standard?


On the uA1 the GPU is the main bottleneck, even though we don't have hardware T&L support yet in the Radeon drivers (if we did, then the CPU would be doing even less work). In my opinion the GPU they use is a very good match for the CPU they have.

Quote:
uA1 was never cheaper, so being cheaper than uA1 is not something "special", considering this machine is much slower compared to it.


uA1 was the cheapest hardware for OS4 so far, and the Samantha will be a considerably cheaper alternative so it's definitely an improvement. I don't think that the overall performance will be much slower than a uA1, for example DVD playback could even be faster (L2 cache doesn't help there and raw memory access speed makes all the difference in motion block reconstruction). I'm very much interested in how it will perform and certainly wouldn't write it off because of the lack of L2 cache, since it has a much higher memory bandwidth than a uA1.

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Crumb 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 12:01:26
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@COBRA

a 39Euro DVD player can show DivX and DVDs, you can be sure that's not the main use most of people give to their computers.

If uA1 costed 650Euros and Samantha costs 500Euros. I can't see the huge price difference. Once you pass the 300Euro barrier your product stops being "low-end".

What about stuff like emulation? What will be the behaviour without L2 cache?


BTW, even if this machine was a G3/600 I wouldn't think it has a reasonable price.

If I pay 500¤ I would expect at least a g4. More than 500? maybe a G5...

Sorry, but Amiga *never* has meant powerless, slow or overpriced. It always has meant good value for your money...

Could you explain me why is it better that OS4 interested companies use ultra slow and expensive hardware instead of using off-the-shelf hardware like a PSX3?

Or why do they insist in selling us slow stuff? each year slower! instead of using a G5, a cpu that is *cheaper* than G4 they decide to create machines with embedded cpus.

I would understand the use of a MPC8641, but a crappy cache less cpu running at the sub ghz range sold for around 500Euro should make me excited?

Come on... Pegasos2 are *already* old, but they sell a G4/1Ghz for 415Euros without VAT.

If they think it's too hard to produce your own hardware... don't produce it! use hardware created by others!

Don't tell me about licenses because this people have to pay for a license too.

And don't talk me about "embedded" market. What makes you think I would want to pay 120Euros for OS4? There are tons of operating systems, some of them are real-time like QNX that would work *much* better than OS4 in embedded environments. Come on... QNX runs rings around OS4 as it runs in lots of cpus, is real time and has memory protection.

In the amiga market some companies think that they have the golden goose and try to charge you lots of money for everything but they don't realize it's just a teddy bear, a memory of the past.

Each day I see these decissions made without real world perspective I get more and more depressed.

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Fransexy 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 12:42:05
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@Crumb

Quote:
If I pay 500¤ I would expect at least a g4. More than 500? maybe a G5...


Even apple don´t offer these prices and you want that Amiga offers it.

Quote:
Each day I see these decissions made without real world perspective I get more and more depressed


Do you meant like Microsoft? ahh!! no, wait!! Microsoft have billions dollar in order to poison the minds of the people and make the world think that their decissions are the correct ones

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hatschi 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 12:57:25
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote:
@Crumb
Quote:
Each day I see these decissions made without real world perspective I get more and more depressed


Do you meant like Microsoft? ahh!! no, wait!! Microsoft have billions dollar in order to poison the minds of the people and make the world think that their decissions are the correct ones


How does Microsoft fit into all this and why do you have to bring it up? It's completely OT here. But apparently this is your only way to counter some of these valid arguments. Sorry, but your x86=Microsoft=Gates=Evil equation is seriously flawed. Btw, are you still wearing your old "Intel Outside" shirt from 1995? Great!

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COBRA 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 13:19:06
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Crumb

Quote:
a 39Euro DVD player can show DivX and DVDs, you can be sure that's not the main use most of people give to their computers.


True, but on the other hand multimedia performance is a very important factor in a home computer, DVD was just an example, the same applies to any video/audio format you download off the net. And I doubt that most people want to burn their downloaded video files onto CDs/DVDs every time so they can watch it in their 39 EUR DVD player :)

Quote:
If I pay 500¤ I would expect at least a g4. More than 500? maybe a G5...


I think what matters is that the price is low enough for most people to afford and that it's fast enough for your everyday computing. I'm not moved by this Mega/Gigaherz crazyness which is going on on the PC market, all I care is that the machine is affordable and works well, feels good to use, does what I want the way I want it, etc.

Quote:
What about stuff like emulation? What will be the behaviour without L2 cache?


We'll find out I guess. If you think that the L2 cache does miracles you're wrong. It does help especially on systems with slow RAM, but the translated 68k code very quickly grows above your L2 cache size, besides software spends most of its time looping smaller code parts which will easily fit into the L1 cache. Why do you think there is no L2 instruction cache in modern CPUs?

Quote:
Could you explain me why is it better that OS4 interested companies use ultra slow and expensive hardware instead of using off-the-shelf hardware like a PSX3?


Did I say it is better? I'd love to see OS4 on the PS3 too.

Quote:
What makes you think I would want to pay 120Euros for OS4? There are tons of operating systems, some of them are real-time like QNX that would work *much* better than OS4 in embedded environments. Come on... QNX runs rings around OS4 as it runs in lots of cpus, is real time and has memory protection.


I'm not exactly sure what you're on about here, they don't plan to sell Samantha in the embedded market with OS4, OS4 is not an embedded OS. Embedded developers will probably use one of the Linux distributions (they're free after all). By the way I worked at QNX, so I know their OS reasonably well. It's a very scalable unix-based OS. Its efficiency is hardly comparable to OS4 though, for instance it uses physical data copying for inter-task message passing, which means inter-task communication is magnitudes of times slower than on OS4.

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Crumb 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 14:08:31
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@Fransexy

Quote:
Even apple don´t offer these prices and you want that Amiga offers it.


Mac Minis at 1.4Ghz were sold by less than 500Euros *complete* with ram, gfx card, hard disk, case, dvd drive... you only had to add mice, keyboard and monitor. Apple has good margin of profits.

Genesi is selling Pegasos2-G4/1Ghz for 415Euros. If you add gfx card and ram add 60-90Euros. You get a machine *much* better than Sam440. You can put the gfx card you want, the amount of ram you want, you can put it easily in most of cases...

I'm sure Pegasos2 is nothing special regarding its price, but it's pretty obvious for me that somebody plans to earn a lot of money selling us embedded cpus as if they were desktop ones.


@COBRA:

Some PC motherboards allow you to disable L2 cache. Disable the L2 cache of a Windows machine and tell me the results.

Quote:
I'm not exactly sure what you're on about here, they don't plan to sell Samantha in the embedded market with OS4, OS4 is not an embedded OS. Embedded developers will probably use one of the Linux distributions (they're free after all). By the way I worked at QNX, so I know their OS reasonably well. It's a very scalable unix-based OS. Its efficiency is hardly comparable to OS4 though, for instance it uses physical data copying for inter-task message passing, which means inter-task communication is magnitudes of times slower than on OS4.


Tsssk! You should not say that OS4 is not an embedded OS or some Hyperion people may bite you!

Unlike QNX, you can't guarantee that OS4 context switch will take a miminimum amount of time (that's the reason OS4 is not real time. Sometimes it may be faster but under certain conditions it could be slower, and that's the problem). OS4 has no memory protection either so if a machine is driving various tasks at the same time you may corrupt public OS structures causing unexpected behaviour in the other task.

The AmigaOS message passing system is a good recipe to make crashes. For me it's pretty obvious that OS4 Team should start to design a new API that avoided the limitations of the old API so new apps have less chances of taking down the OS. That way you could have "pure OS4" apps that would run safely. You could put a checkbox in preferences to disallow running old software that uses the old API. That way OS4 would become more and more stable.

The memory "private" types is a good idea until you realize there are public structures that can be overwritten. That should be avoided with a new API for message passing etc... even if OS4 legacy apps still didn't ran in a sandbox.

But I'm getting offtopic here... I guess that Hyperion also won't like the idea of PSX3 running OS4 because they wouldn't be able to sell as many ports of old games...

Last edited by Crumb on 30-Oct-2006 at 02:24 PM.

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COBRA 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 14:18:54
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Crumb

Quote:
Genesi is selling Pegasos2-G4/1Ghz for 415Euros. If you add gfx card and ram add 60-90Euros. You get a machine *much* better than Sam440.


Add to that VAT and the price of OS4 and you're already in the 650-700 EUR range, besides Peg2 is a discontinued product (no longer being manufactured) and they're just selling off the remaining units very cheap now so it's not a good comparison.

Quote:
Some PC motherboards allow you to disable L2 cache. Disable the L2 cache of a Windows machine and tell me the results.


Not a good comparison again, comparing the memory/cache bandwidth requirements of OS4 vs. Windows?

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Crumb 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 14:41:37
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@COBRA

Quote:
Add to that VAT and the price of OS4 and you're already in the 650-700 EUR


415+16%VAT = 481Euros

A graphic card costs 36Euros VAT included.

512MB of 400Mhz DDR ram costs 60Euros VAT included.

that's 577Euros. And the machine is *much* better than Sam440.

What makes you think 464+the cost of OS4 is more attractive than a 1Ghz G4 with Altivec, various PCI slots and capable of running various Linux distros at full speed?

Quote:
besides Peg2 is a discontinued product (no longer being manufactured) and they're just selling off the remaining units very cheap now so it's not a good comparison


It's still produced in small batches. When it still was being produced in larger numbers it costed the same. When it was launched some years ago it costed 500¤ without VAT. But that was some years ago!

I only want to try to show you that a hardware produced *next year* should have better features or price than a machine produced 2 years ago. But it hasn't better features neither price.

I'm only saying that if you released a machine with similar specs *today* it should have a features/price realtion at least as good as the machines produced 2 years ago.

IMHO I prefer to pay 150Euros more and get a computer with a computer cpu.

Quote:
Not a good comparison again, comparing the memory/cache bandwidth requirements of OS4 vs. Windows?


Try any program. If I apply a filter in Photoshop what has Window to do with this? What if I want to use a JVM? What if I compile something? What if I want to RIP a TV Program? What If I want to RIP a DVD? What If I want to use an emulator?

What about 68k apps? Will ImageFX or ArtEffect run faster on a Sam440 than on a MicroA1?

I'm talking about using real apps. It's a valid comparison. Unless you only use the computer to open and close drawers, change icons and play SDL games.

I don't know if the OS4 cpu command allows you to disable caches like you did on OS3.x, but it may be a good test.

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COBRA 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 15:04:20
#38 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Crumb

Quote:
415+16%VAT = 481Euros
A graphic card costs 36Euros VAT included.
512MB of 400Mhz DDR ram costs 60Euros VAT included.
that's 577Euros. And the machine is *much* better than Sam440.


You forgot to add gfxcard and OS4, say 30 EUR for a reasonable gfxcard and 120 EUR for OS4. That makes it 727 EUR already. Btw I doubt that they would manage 415 EUR price producing it in small batches. IMHO they're just selling off the remaining stock at bargain prices to get rid of them.

Quote:
IMHO I prefer to pay 150Euros more and get a computer with a computer cpu.


Then the Sam is obviously not for you. It's a low-end board for those who don't need more performance and don't want to (or can't afford to) pay 220 EUR more

Quote:
Try any program. If I apply a filter in Photoshop what has Window to do with this? What if I want to use a JVM? What if I compile something? What if I want to RIP a TV Program? What If I want to RIP a DVD? What If I want to use an emulator?


Doesn't matter what you do, as long as windows manages your memory resources and swaps pages in/out as it pleases.

Quote:
I'm talking about using real apps. It's a valid comparison.


No it's not. A valid comparison will be running tests under OS4 on an actual Samantha board.

Quote:
I don't know if the OS4 cpu command allows you to disable caches like you did on OS3.x, but it may be a good test.


Considering that the memory bandwidth of Samantha is several times that of the AmigaOne, such a test also would be pretty pointless.

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ssolie 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 15:14:39
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2755
From: Alberta, Canada

@wegster
Quote:
GFX are questionable as to what real resultion will support...

One should keep in mind the Panda has a GFX board and it is not soldered in place or anything. Plus there is the whole issue of drivers. I think it would just be easier to pop in some ATI Radeon card which we already have drivers for and call it a day but that is up to my overlords to figure out.

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Crumb 
Re: Sam's ETA ?
Posted on 30-Oct-2006 15:31:42
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@Crumb

Quote:
415+16%VAT = 481Euros
A graphic card costs 36Euros VAT included.
512MB of 400Mhz DDR ram costs 60Euros VAT included.
that's 577Euros. And the machine is *much* better than Sam440.


You forgot to add gfxcard and OS4, say 30 EUR for a reasonable gfxcard and 120 EUR for OS4. That makes it 727 EUR already. Btw I doubt that they would manage


No, I didn't. You should check your calculators...
481(motherboard&1ghz G4) +60 (512MB of fast ram) +36 (a gfx card)=577Euro

577+120= 697Euros. Still much better than old MicroA1 if we remember that some people may pay 500Euros for a 1Ghz G4 update.


Quote:

415 EUR price producing it in small batches. IMHO they're just selling off the remaining stock at bargain prices to get rid of them.



The fact is that they have been selling Pegasos2 with 1Ghz G4 years for around 500Euros. When the platform was *new*. Now someone offer us a vaporware underpowered motherboard that no ones has seen even booting linux for the premium price of around 464 Euros without OS4 (thats 400Euros + VAT) without OS4. If you add OS4 that's 584Euros.

There's only a 120Euro difference between a 600Mhz L2 cache less 603 and a 1Ghz G4 with altivec where I can put whatever gfx card I want? mmm hard to choose.

Despite of that I prefer a PSX3 or a 970FX.

Since Genesi can get 970FX cheaper than those old G4 it's pretty obvious that it's more logical to produce G5s...

G5- normal desktop and MPC8641 -low end.


Quote:


Quote:
IMHO I prefer to pay 150Euros more and get a computer with a computer cpu.


Then the Sam is obviously not for you. It's a low-end board for those who don't need more performance and don't want to (or can't afford to) pay 220 EUR more



The Sam is not low-end. A 500Euro motherboard is not "low end". A mac mini is a full computer and costs less than 500Euros including OSX. That is low end. But that computer includes a 1.4Ghz G4 cpu, 256MB of ram, a hard disks and other goodies that Sam440 won't ever dream about having.

Quote:

Quote:
Try any program. If I apply a filter in Photoshop what has Window to do with this? What if I want to use a JVM? What if I compile something? What if I want to RIP a TV Program? What If I want to RIP a DVD? What If I want to use an emulator?


Doesn't matter what you do, as long as windows manages your memory resources and swaps pages in/out as it pleases.


And when OS4 runs out of memory it will say "not enough memory" or will it simply hang? so what? If you know what you are doing you can check how much ram each process needs and how much real ram is available. It's easy. Press ctrl+alt+del

So you think OS4 is superior to windows because when OS4 runs out of memory it will hang or display a "not enough memory" message instead of allowing you to swap out the apps you use less uh? The OS4 swap system is soooo "clever"

You can perform the test without your system swapping. Disable "swap" in the preferences. Watch out the ram you are using. Launch photoshop and tell me that L2 cache doesn't affect the speed you apply effects.

Quote:

Quote:
I'm talking about using real apps. It's a valid comparison.


No it's not. A valid comparison will be running tests under OS4 on an actual Samantha board.


Unfortunately as SAM440 is just vapourware we can't even get Linux speed benchmarks.

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I don't know if the OS4 cpu command allows you to disable caches like you did on OS3.x, but it may be a good test.


Considering that the memory bandwidth of Samantha is several times that of the AmigaOne, such a test also would be pretty pointless.


But as we don't have Sam440 it's the only similar test you can do.

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