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      /  Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a sustainable market
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jorkany 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 14:16:31
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 920
From: Space Coast

@Darth_X
Quote:

10. "Getting a licence for Amiga, Inc IP seems to be impossible due to unresponsiveness. Could you outline the procedure, requirements, or, possibly, details of getting a licence?"

Bill McEwen -- It is certainly not impossible as we have signed more than one contract for our IP and there will be some products coming out later this year from some third party vendors that will show that to be the case.

What if he was referring not to intellectual property but instead AInc's IP address?!?

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Seer 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 14:18:47
#22 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@d0c

if your gonna buy an efika then do that but there is no need to shout it out on aw.net. becouse efika dont run an amiga os and at this time have nothing to do with amiga at all, probably will not ever run amiga os at all.. if you want that morphos/genesis solution that bad go talk about it on the morphos/genesis sites.... we dont need to hear about it here...

Don't tell other members what they can or cannot post here. At any rate, Radfoo post was more on topic then yours.

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Colin_Camper 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 14:44:32
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2003
Posts: 1188
From: Unknown

@Kronos

I completely agree with your entire post.

@hatschi

Quote:
A triple-boot of OS3.9, MOS Powerup *and* OS4.0 on an BPPC/CSPPC would certainly be quite nice.


I think that a 'wrapper' for MOS and AROS on OS4 and OS4 and MOS on AROS and OS4 and AROS on MOS would be nice, if not slightly ambitious. Personally I find the existence of all three OS's and their 'difficult' history make the Amiga a more interesting place to be right now.

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Tomas 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 15:06:08
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@d0c

Quote:

d0c wrote:
@Radfoo

if your gonna buy an efika then do that but there is no need to shout it out on aw.net. becouse efika dont run an amiga os and at this time have nothing to do with amiga at all, probably will not ever run amiga os at all.. if you want that morphos/genesis solution that bad go talk about it on the morphos/genesis sites.... we dont need to hear about it here...


This thread was posted under General computing and technology, which is actually a topic for non amiga stuff, which means that this thread follows the guidelines.

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NomadOfNorad 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 18:40:15
#25 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Jun-2003
Posts: 746
From: Jacksonville, Florida, USA, Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

@Colin_Camper

Is that "interesting" in the ancient Chinese sense of the word?

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RedMelons 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 18:59:27
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1062
From: Merrie Olde England

Earlier today I was reading the story of the Japanese soldier who carried on fighting the Second World War, not knowing that it had ended thirty years earlier.

Can anybody confirm that AInc and Hyperion are still intending to release a new Amiga OS, or will AmigaWorld still be here in 30 years time arguing about it, not realising that the protagonists had just quietly slipped away?

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lgn 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 20:45:33
#27 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2006
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

@IonMane

Thanks for your input.
Kronos already did pretty much summed up my view on the "why not port MorphOS first"-argument but let me draw it in closer connection about the thought I was trying to share with you.
I dont think the MorphOS-Team would let pass away a chance to port their OS onto HW where they can establish a sustainable market.How could you define such a market? Can you remember the idea of selling 50000 copies of OS3.9? That is such a figure from the amiga-related past, where ppl were thinking how many copies they need to sell to establish a sustainable market based on that product. This figure by far hasnt been reached and caused OS4 plans being dropped for a while (until the MorphOS-Team made pressure with a competing product).
Just as a personal view, i would even double the amount of needed sales..so I think (without that I can backing my claims up) that you need to reach the 6. digit to really call it being 'sustainable'.

That said, you can easily point out, that porting MorphOS to any board by Mai Logic, be it: AmigaOne.5, XE or Micro, where each model sold in the single thousand units range and below at best is commercial harakiri. The same could be said about a port of OS4 to the (now discontinued) Pegasos. I fail to see how the 'Panda' board should even exceed the number of AmigaOnes sold during the years.The Sam could be interesting though, especially when they choose OpenFirmware so that a varity of diffent OS could be run on it, but again what I wanted to point out..its price and hardware characteristics (features) what count for most ppl.

I have to clarify, that i'm not against any community custom-hardware projects, at least if its not a wierd and expensive (and probably chinese or taiwanese) development mainboard with a sticker on it. I like efforts like the 5200-based A1200 Accelerator and Jens Schoenfeld and Oliver Achten have my deepest symphaties when it comes to their efforts to reassemble the original Amiga Custom-Chipsets. That announcement was truly one of the highlights of this year for me.

But it should be clear that while there is and will be a market for pure retro machine or gimmicks, that market will not be great enough for a modern operating systems and the whole infrastructure surrounding it (let alone even two or three). So back to my POV: I think the Efika could create such a market for all the amiga-related platforms to prosper. And since it needs a single decision for OS4 to make this happen, I want to encourage anyone to be more open-minded towards this or generally other possibilities and then draw own conclusions without bias. Share it, and maybe encourage others to do the same.
As Kronos said, maybe Amiga Inc. doesnt even want to give a license out to anyone actually (to get what they think is theirs or for other dubious reasons), however at the end there will be someone (or all of 'em together who knows), who wants to make money with.
As a sidenote, its publically known that the Panda board, which you came up with, won't ever get a license by recently changed amiga inc. terms & conditions, and thus cant be considered an os4-platform any more than an Efika. Yet, many people do consider so. Why not give Efika such kind of 'support' too?

A short note to what i said about the chances of these community hw efforts. I have the feeling that many ppl simply 'cant' symphatize with the Efika, because they dont want to 'let down' the developers of certain os4-community hardware. However, these efforts dont get void because OS4 runs on Efika, I even think its quite the opposite, means the chances for those hardware platforms to reach solid ground is higher, than if theres no port to the Efika.
That is, because I see the Efika as an entry level model, dragging new users into the community (for the first time in the post C= history btw). And if thats enough for OS developers to actually 'make a living', then it might easier for them give their ok to support such low-scale products of special hardware, especially when only minor changes are necessary and in case of ACK hardware, that work even being done by Adam himself (iirc).

Regards,

logain

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Srbin 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 21:03:40
#28 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Dec-2004
Posts: 407
From: Serbia

Next year i will buy 'SOME' amiga system; aros, efika, pegasos.... The best for less that $500, LAN it with my pc and use such system.
But giving $700++ for just a1 board, being produced by not-reliable company, with os4 YEARS! delayed and probably would not be develop further... Man, i ain't that crasy.... Unless aros become more usable with 68k emulation integreted (like os4 and mos are), i will buy efika and build a usable system for small money.....

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ssolie 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 21:06:46
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2755
From: Alberta, Canada

@lgn
Quote:
As a sidenote, its publically known that the Panda board, which you came up with, won't ever get a license by recently changed amiga inc. terms & conditions, and thus cant be considered an os4-platform any more than an Efika. Yet, many people do consider so. Why not give Efika such kind of 'support' too?

It is best not to trust things you read in public as the ultimate truth. Sure, it is a snapshot in time of some thoughts. But things change and will continue to change.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a Panda board to test. Unlike some other boards, it is right here right now.

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adiaux 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 21:21:41
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@IonMane

Quote:

IonMane wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

Once again, here is a discussion about how why etc but constructive and you come along throwing names about and insulting people with your generalizeations. Funny how it is that you scream louder then most when people get sick of it and you wonder why some of us dont want genesi\morphos around.

Way to go to build on that spirit of co-operation again !


Genesi is not the problem, the problem is that there are too few "Genesi's" in this community, that there are too few companies that can develop hardware, put it to market, provide long-term support for it that exceeds normal warranty, create a solid OS support for it, and make it recognized in the industry. BBRV is not the problem either, the community needs lots more entrepreneurs, it could easily use *a hundred* of BBRV's. The Efika isn't the problem either, the problem is that OS4 doesn't run on it. MorphOS isn't a problem either, it is not discussed particulary much here anyway (this *is* an OS4 centric site). In the last days, *you* are among the handfull of people that has brought MorphOS into discussion on this site, time after time, but only to shout out in an endless loop that "it's not the real thing" (like anyone except that handful of loudmouths really cares about such definitions anyway, a duck is a duck is a duck).

No, the current problem with this site IMHO is the handful of obviously angry loudmouths and their constant babbeling about MorphOS and its lack of relation to the Amiga brand. If those could tone down themselves and their anger (*and* their MorphOS hate-discussions) a bit, this site would be a much more pleasant place for everyone to visit. Here is a suggestion: talk about your "real things" instead, like OS4, OS4 hardware, and OS4 future! Try being constructive for a change!

Please quit your MorphOS bashing, no-one is interested. Please stop your constant apartheid propaganda, and your shouting about who is the most holy one, who is real and who is not. This is *not* what the Amiga community currently needs! The "camp mentality" is currently only kept alive by a handful of very loud people (all you have to do is look at the last few days threads, and you will see who those 5 or so people are), everyone else seems to want to get along now. We all come from the same place and we all have the same hopes for the future. We are all Amigans. Please stop this red/blue thing, and end all this angry "keep'em separated" propaganda.

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adiaux 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 21:23:33
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@RedMelons

Quote:

RedMelons wrote:
Earlier today I was reading the story of the Japanese soldier who carried on fighting the Second World War, not knowing that it had ended thirty years earlier.

Can anybody confirm that AInc and Hyperion are still intending to release a new Amiga OS, or will AmigaWorld still be here in 30 years time arguing about it, not realising that the protagonists had just quietly slipped away?



Hmm, that was an interesting thought!

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adiaux 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 21:33:42
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@ssolie

Quote:
Now if you'll excuse me, I have a Panda board to test. Unlike some other boards, it is right here right now.


Well, great for *you* then (and you only). Have fun! However, the "Panda" they will sell to end-users isn't even designed yet, and even less prototyped, right? Or licensed, for that matter?

For me, the "Samantha" is the only "OS4 hardware"(?) I dare to put some hope to. I hope they will actually make it, and that they will manage to get an OS4 license for it. Then I will buy it!

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ssolie 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 21:49:07
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2755
From: Alberta, Canada

@takemehomegrandma
Quote:
Have fun!

Talk is cheap. I am helping move the project forward with real work. When I get the chance I'll gladly help the SAM440EP project move forward as well with real work. I suppose talking about the future instead of doing something about it is more fun for some than others.

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bbrv 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 22:58:14
#34 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Nov-2005
Posts: 315
From: Earth

@ssolie

Did you know we were working on the graphics drivers for that board? We have been working with XGI, Freescale and UDTech for over a year. Let us know if you need some support. Here is a graphics update:

1. 2D is loading and working perfectly.

2. 3D is loading and working but with possibly some endianness issues (color, sometimes). We need community testing and community development effort to get this up to 100%. We will get this started soon. Would you like to participate?

3. MPEG acceleration is being worked on right now (by XGI). This is almost complete if not complete in the latest code drop. MPEG with software acceleration works fine. The initial testing looks good.

Our ATI driver is not as bleeding edge as the XGI driver, but the ATI driver is stable and it works with MorphOS. We intend to offer a 'developer upgrade' that consists of an XGI card with the corresponding driver code to interested developers in a few weeks. The XGI card can do more than the ATI card, but for the XGI driver to be successful and become as robust as the ATI driver, it requires a community effort. We cannot skip that step.

Note that Freescale has an XGI driver too. Freescale is shipping an XGI driver with its uboot boards. Don't worry, we will turn the XGI driver effort into a PowerDeveloper project. We build solid hardware and we will support the bleeding edge stuff that is happening -- even for the ubooters....

Best regards,
R&B

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IonMane 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 23:13:09
#35 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
Genesi is not the problem, the problem is that there are too few "Genesi's" in this community, that there are too few companies that can develop hardware, put it to market, provide long-term support for it that exceeds normal warranty, create a solid OS support for it, and make it recognized in the industry

This much I will give them, but the company is not short on its shady dealings either.
Quote:
BBRV is not the problem either, the community needs lots more entrepreneurs, it could easily use *a hundred* of BBRV's.

I disagree, he will not answer direct questions but preferrs implication and oblique referances. It has been demonstrated in the past that he has caused trouble and made many attempts to directly discredit everything about the "official" amiga solution, even gone to courts in an attempt to steal, IMO, AOS4 and seems like he is trying to do so again with his recent statements.Yes, we need more entrepeneurs, but NOT like BBRV in the regard I have just mentioned.
Quote:
The Efika isn't the problem either, the problem is that OS4 doesn't run on it. MorphOS isn't a problem either, it is not discussed particulary much here anyway (this *is* an OS4 centric site).

I have never said the Efika is a problem, nor have I said morphos is a problem.I respect what the morphos team has accomplished. It is however, not my choice and some people like you take exception to that and simply cannot accept it.
Quote:
In the last days, *you* are among the handfull of people that has brought MorphOS into discussion on this site, time after time, but only to shout out in an endless loop that "it's not the real thing" (like anyone except that handful of loudmouths really cares about such definitions anyway, a duck is a duck is a duck).

I did not start any news item or thread about morphos. My comments were not morphos specific.I stated my opion that this is supposedly an official amiga centric site, that morphos and the other solutions are not Amiga, which despite your protestations is true, regardless of how it makes you feel.As such as there is no common hardware base, no common code base except for the 68k part which is doomed pretty much anyway, and no realistic likelyhood of there being any common ground, that it would be best that each went thier seperate ways. It is you and a number of others who cannot accept my opinion that keep bringing it up and "yelling" that I am wrong and keep attacking my opinion. On top of that it is YOU that starts throwing the insults. I think that your "loudmouth" insult probably better fits theauthor of said insult rather than the recipient.
Quote:
In the last days, *you* are among the handfull of people that has brought MorphOS into discussion on this site, time after time, but only to shout out in an endless loop that "it's not the real thing" (like anyone except that handful of loudmouths really cares about such definitions anyway, a duck is a duck is a duck).

You are entitled to your opinion, but once again you resort to insulting. IMO this site would be much better without the likes of you running your mouth off insulting and generally deriding people because you dont like thier opinions, that they dare support the "official" Amiga only.Here is a suggestion to you, go back in this thread and read it properly, I have made several suggestions in the vien of "co-operation". However all you can seem to do is ignore that and harangue me because I do not believe in or support what you do.How is that behaviour constructive?
Even my opinion, your which your are a perfect example of why I hold it, that the two platforms should go there seperate ways is a constructive opinion because I think it may be better for both.If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck etc it probably is a duck.Except when it is a goose, and you my friend have the goose.

Quote:
Please quit your MorphOS bashing, no-one is interested. Please stop your constant apartheid propaganda, and your shouting about who is the most holy one, who is real and who is not. This is *not* what the Amiga community currently needs! The "camp mentality" is currently only kept alive by a handful of very loud people (all you have to do is look at the last few days threads, and you will see who those 5 or so people are), everyone else seems to want to get along now. We all come from the same place and we all have the same hopes for the future. We are all Amigans. Please stop this red/blue thing, and end all this angry "keep'em separated" propaganda

I have not bashed Morphos in the slightest, except of course you feel that it not being Amiga is bashing. I have in fact encourage those who have chosen that solution to be proud of it in its own right, as it deserves, not because of a tenuous connection to classic Amiga's. Once again you degrade the suffering of so many to a disagreement about computer platforms.That I do not really like, it is an insult to those who sufferd. I have not said any sytem is better than any other, that any is more entitled to anything based on its merits than any other, and certainly computers do not reach the range of religious fevour to me. I have said they are different and we should celebrate those differences.Hey guess what, people with dark skin tone are different to people with a light skin tone. That does not make either enferior, it just makes them different.
Yes, we all came from the same source, but just like siblings there comes a time when they must go thier seperate ways. You can maintain links, but people like you who insult and rave and deride people and thier opinions are the reason we may not even want to maintain those links.Who is the one insulting, then tell me who is the one that is angry.
It has also been my experience that those that shout loudest about such things as aparthied, racism, sexism descrimination and so on and the worst offenders.Perhaps you should take a look at yourself.

Last edited by IonMane on 26-Nov-2006 at 11:20 PM.

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IonMane 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 23:18:47
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@bbrv

More posts like this would do much to fix your image, with but a little more conciseness. One problem is that you use "we" to refer to Genesi, yourself, yourself and RV, power org, the amiga community, the morphos community, the entire community that uses PPC processors.
Please, could you tell me which we you are referring to this time, and perhaps preceed further "we" useage in a way that makes it clear which "we" you are using?

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bbrv 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 23:22:44
#37 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Nov-2005
Posts: 315
From: Earth

@IonMane

Holy Cow!

1. Maybe you could stop insulting us every time you post. How about that?

2. What were your questions?! If we missed them, let's try that again. Please post them here.

Thanks!

R&B

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lgn 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 23:34:03
#38 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2006
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

@ssolie

Quote:
It is best not to trust things you read in public as the ultimate truth.


I dont see this decision as being final either, thats why I add "by recently changed amiga inc. terms & conditions" as AFAIK this is the current state-of-affairs. Therefore..

Quote:
Sure, it is a snapshot in time of some thoughts. But things change and will continue to change.


..I fully agree with you on that!

Actually this was even the point I was trying to make in this answer. Actually the Panda (aka UDTech Board...in case someone didnt know) doesnt have a license just like the Efika. Yet this could change overnight. The same however goes for the Efika, thats why I wonder why some people trying to alienate it as much as possible. It really is a great chance for OS4, imho.

Kind regards,

logain

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IonMane 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 23:45:01
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@lgn

I was not talking about proting morphos to now discontinued A1 hardware, that would likely be pointless.
I was talking about porting it new new hardware when and if it ever eventuates. Porting OS4 to any Genesi hardware is not the problem, the problem is that the chances of Hyperion legally being able to is probably so close to zero as to not matter.
Therefore the only way to combine a hardware platfrom for both operating systems is for morphos to be ported to the new Amiga hardware if it ever eventuates, and to supply morphos directly to the customer much like linux. Of course I suggested selling it, I dont see how depriving yourself of revenue could help them.
This is not to say they cannot supply Morphos to other hardware, definately not, but would increase the viability of at least one hardware solution for both OS's.Morhpos would have the advantage of greater choice.

I really cant see another way that has a better chance of happening.

The Efika, while cheap, really is not the answer in my opinion as I have stated, I dont see AOS4 ever being allowed to be ported to it in the forseeable future.So, with Hyperions hands tied, that puts the ball firmly in the morphos team's court.
They are really the only ones that can do anything aabout creating a unified hardware platform for both, unless of course there is some reason they too are prevented?

When and IF this happens, perhaps Amiga Inc. will see the futility of thier licensing model and unshackle the hands of Hyperion allowing them to port to the hardware they see fit.

Once again, the first move has to come from somewhere, and the only one with the ability I feel is Morphos.

Of course, Genesi might be on the level with actually going through the channels with Amiga Inc. and actually get a license. I doubt it, but then stranger things have happened.

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IonMane 
Re: Efika as a chance for amiga-related systems to create a basic market
Posted on 26-Nov-2006 23:48:19
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@bbrv

Quote:
One problem is that you use "we" to refer to Genesi, yourself, yourself and RV, power org, the amiga community, the morphos community, the entire community that uses PPC processors.

Which "we" are you referring to this time?

Quote:
1. Maybe you could stop insulting us every time you post. How about that?

To be honest I probably have insulted you in the past, for which I apologize. However, I certainly do not insult you every time I post, that is an exaggeration.
However, I do find that many of your actions in the past to be shady, designed to stir up trouble, and find your intentions for the Amiga and its operating system dubious. If you take insult to that, well that is not my problem really.

The way you currently behave in your postings,the ambiguity of what you say, like the "we" I have mentioned above for one, and your blogs which make no sense as answers to direct questions not only from myself but from others also do nothing but perpetuate that mistrust.Many of us feel you are doing nothing but playing mind games with us.

The above post of yours was refreshing, and I implore you to continue to speak plainly, directly and strive to eliminate any ambiguity in your communications. Give me and those that share my opinion, a reason to let go of our mistrust, rather than a reason to hold on to it.

So, I will stop "insulting" you, and Maybe you could stop being ambiguous every time you post. How about that?

Last edited by IonMane on 27-Nov-2006 at 12:32 AM.

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