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      /  I think I've had enough...
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smithy 
I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 15:39:36
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Aug-2003
Posts: 364
From: Newcastle

After 3 years of Paihia development I think I've had enough. I am thinking about releasing the source code to interested people - but I'm not sure exactly yet. Perhaps the code might be worth something to me in years to come. There is 1.6Mb of code uncompressed. That's about 60,000 lines of C++. Lots of OO patterns used that have ensured everything is nicely decoupled. 40% of the code is unit tests.

For example. The CSS engine (not the layouter part, the bit that parses and calculates property values) could be quite easily integrated into another browser. All the other browser needs is a document tree that implements an interface. In turn the CSS engine maps quite straightforwardly into a display/layout engine.

Alternatively, another browser could replace their document tree stuff with Paihia's. This would give tree event support, including both bubble-up, top-down models. As well as the whole visual/CSS stuff.

Paihia's XML processor (a validating parser - it passes about 70% of W3 XML conformance test suite.) uses some fancy factories to ensure that there is no visual/display stuff in it. This means it could be used in people's applications that use XML but don't need all that visual extra stuff. And at 10,000 lines of code it's very small and fast.

The downsides:

The layout engine is most in need of work. It supports block/inline/float boxes, the box model (borders, padding, etc..), fonts, colours but no tables. Probably not much use to people.

There is a working, but messy Javascript interpreter that hasn't been compiled for 2 years - it doesn't compile against the current build. And none of the core Javascript library has been implemented either.

There is no HTML support. (it was going to be done via a CSS stylesheet) but that won't handle dodgy HTML.

No HTTP support.

No DOM interfaces have been written, although it should be quite easy doing it on top of the internal tree.

There is no documentation at all and code comments are few.

Erm, I've done all the development in Visual C++. The whole browser is in pure C++ though. The system-specific stuff is very small and there's a simple API to access it. The only implemented API is one for Java. The API is extremely simple anyway: opens windows, draws text and shapes. I've got no idea if it'll compile on GCC (it definately won't compile in SAS, Hisoft C++ or Storm because it uses lots of STL and new C++ stuff). But there are no MS-specific C++ stuff or libraries involved.

Basically, I'm fed up. And this isn't even thinking about the whole quagmire that the Amiga scene seems to be in. To get a complete browser will probably take me the rest of the year of working. I do enjoy programming but I feel this project has taken its toll on me in many ways. I suspect my future hobbyist coding projects will be somewhat smaller.

Anyway, is anyone interested or should I just consign it all to a CD and let it gather dust......?

Last edited by smithy on 18-Mar-2007 at 03:41 PM.

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The_Editor 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 15:52:08
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 7626
From: 192.168.0.02 ..Pederburgh .. Iceni

@smithy

I respect your reasons Smithy..

Still ... I'm disappointed.

I actually believed Paihia would be The One




Do you feel it's worth setting up a bounty for your source ?

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Kicko 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 15:58:14
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 5006
From: Sweden

Too sad. I hoped too Paihia would be a nice browser but as The_editor said. Respect ;)

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Severin 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 16:02:34
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 2706
From: Gloucestershire UK

@smithy

The IBrowse devs might be interested, if it could be integrated you would have done a large chunk of what they're just starting to do and could knock a vast amount of time from the IBrowse 3.0 development.

I'll post a link to this thread in the IBrowse Beta ML..

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Chris_Y 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 16:27:24
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3102
From: Beds, UK

@smithy

That's a shame

Perhaps the AWeb guys can make use of your work?

I might be interested in the XML parser as an AmigaOS shared library, if it isn't as crazy as Expat.

Chris

Last edited by Chris_Y on 18-Mar-2007 at 04:29 PM.

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Hans 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 18:01:02
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4790
From: New Zealand

@smithy

Sad to hear, but understandable. Paihia sounded promising. I liked the idea of a browser designed for CSS, etc., from the ground up. I hope that someone will find use for your work.

Hans

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Wishmaster 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 20:05:26
#7 ]
Member
Joined: 4-May-2003
Posts: 44
From: Unknown

That was foreseeable.

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nubechecorre 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 20:15:05
#8 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Nov-2003
Posts: 873
From: San remo -Italy-

I think that Aweb and Ibrowse can take advantage of your work..

Give them a try

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ssolie 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 21:05:52
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2692
From: Alberta, Canada

@smithy
A web browser is a very large project so don't feel bad about wanting to do something else instead. I know I've given up on many projects in the past myself. Some things are just too big for one guy to handle. A web browser is one of those things in my opinion.

As for releasing the sources I think you should hold off a bit. Take some time for the situation to sink in. Programmers know how hard it is to just release sources after spending so much time and energy. In the end, releasing the sources is a good idea though just for the closure.

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Rob 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 22:15:48
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5577
From: S.Wales

@smithy

Sad to hear but it's not worth burning yourself out over.

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GregS 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 22:43:32
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: Perth Australia

@smithy
I too am sorry to hear this, but this sounds very interesting:

"Paihia's XML processor (a validating parser - it passes about 70% of W3 XML conformance test suite.) uses some fancy factories to ensure that there is no visual/display stuff in it. This means it could be used in people's applications that use XML but don't need all that visual extra stuff. And at 10,000 lines of code it's very small and fast."

This could be very useful to many apps.

Could I suggest a flag, to compensate for a major problem in XML standards that appears to have been neglected.

Embedding binary data in XML is just plainly diabolical, yet could be easily accommodated. It is outside the standard, but here is the suggestion for "

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GregS 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 22:54:29
#12 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: Perth Australia

@Smithy

My post got truncated for having OTAG ! [CDATA[ in it and was lost.

BINARY wrapping/embedding in XML can be fixed, but we need a parser that understands it properly.

OTAG ! [CDATA[ plus ====[ fixes the problem when complimented by ]====]] CTAG

Where "=" is incremented by one above the "===]]" that may be found in the binary itself.

If the Binary has no "]]" or "]]]" or "=]]]" then it would be just one extra set of brackets and cause no errors by normal parsers.

Using a special wrapping element ie OTAG CDATAFilesize with the attribute bytes="43423143" would make things even better. A file size element wrapper for a CDATA block.

Please think about the implications and think about making the XML validating parser your smaller project.

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samo79 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 23:37:40
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3352
From: Italy, Perugia

This is a sad news, altrough not a shook for me, this is a huge project for only one developer, a this point imho the better solution is to release the source code as opensource, maybe the AWeb team could appreciate this.

Another solution would be to contact one or two additional programmers that can help Smithy in this project, anyone is interested ?

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ChrisH 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 18-Mar-2007 23:50:01
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@smithy
Why not just take a complete break from the Paihia project? Maybe start a new & smaller project? And then only start working on Paihia again, when you actually feel interested in it again? (That might be 1 month or 1 year from now.)

BUT, you could still let somebody, say the IBrowse team, make good use of your existing code. That way you needn't feel (unjustified) pressure from Amigans to start working on it again, because somebody else already would be.

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Belxjander 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 19-Mar-2007 5:24:25
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 557
From: Chiba prefecture Japan

@smithy

Take a break and wrapper it up as an XML parsing library for each of
AOS3/AOS4/AROS/MorphOS or whatever you choose,

kudos for getting a full XML engine...it would be a good foundation for merging into
any or all the existing Amiga browsers, and also be a good starting basis for a XUL
implimentation

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BigBentheAussie 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 19-Mar-2007 8:26:44
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

Note to self:

Accomodate smaller yet immediately useful milestones in your software design.

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.

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spotUP 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 19-Mar-2007 13:55:39
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 2892
From: Up Rough Demo Squad

@smithy

sorry to hear that smithy! i'd like to see you making your sources available for free to other aos developers. hmm ibrowse ain't free but maybe they could donate a key and a percentage of the ibrowse sales to you?

aweb is free, so if i would be in your position i'd let them and any other open source project use it for free.

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Crumb 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 19-Mar-2007 19:00:33
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@smithy

Do you think it could be integrated with AWeb?

Making it LGPL would be a good idea if you don't plan to continue working on it.

As the code is portable with some luck maybe someone wants to continue your work (even for other platforms). And you can always return.

Feelin author released his code as LGPL but he continues working on it.

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pixie 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 19-Mar-2007 20:32:20
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2645
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Crumb

If Smithy browser could be made to use Feelin it could be a match made in heaven... feelin deserve such an app

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nzv58l 
Re: I think I've had enough...
Posted on 19-Mar-2007 21:13:53
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Oct-2003
Posts: 1640
From: Michigan

@smithy

Sorry to hear, but I would like to make a few suggestions before you give up.

Perhaps you just need some help. Find a few interested and talented people to delegate to. Become sort of a project leader and just identify tasks and see if you can get some help out here.

Also, If you plan on shelving it, make at least two copies and keep them it totally seperate places. Keep one at your parents or friends house and keep one at your own. that way if your house burns down, at least not all is lost. You should do that for any other stuff that insurance can't replace as well.

I think some day things will improve. It seems that these are really dark days for the Amiga, but a browser is the most important application we can have. Perhaps if you still want to help then perhaps you can get into someone elses project like the AWeb team or even IBrowse.

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