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jorkany 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 12:47:36
#101 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 919
From: Space Coast

@Returner
Quote:
How many layers does your board(s) have ?

lol! How many do you want?

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herewegoagain 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 12:59:58
#102 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2003
Posts: 3270
From: Charlotte, NC

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote:
@herewegoagain

I don't agree. OS4 is a non-MP 32-bit OS, and even if you manage to get it run on *one* of the two cores somehow (thus ignoring the other), you would end up paying 100% of $1500 for a machine that you will use to 50% of its potential. I fail to see how this could be "the best CPU option"...

But wasn't there a single-core version also?


Yes, there is suppose to be a single core version as well. The dual cores could also be useful immediately for anyone who also wants to run a Linux variant along side of AmigaOS, so I still think it's the best PPC option. It's the only one that currently provides a next gen 64-bit CPU core, along with PCI-e 16X and all of the other bells and whistles in a single package. The low wattage power consumption of the entire chipset and CPU is 25W with both cores and all chips maxed (worse case senario). That should make for some quiet running systems.

But nobody will ever be able to come up with anything for this market that won't be criticized heavily by someone or the other. This chair is too too big... this chair is too small. This porridge is too hot... this porridge is too cold. This bed is too hard... this bed is too soft. For those who think this machine is too much, buy the $490 version. Simple really.

Personally, I would rather pay $1500 for a complete branded machine based on the PASemi chip, than $1000 for just a motherboard that is based on years old flakey technology.






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adiaux 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 13:12:33
#103 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

OK, let's try this analogy as a pedagogic example:

Look at this picture...



Do you see the round shaped hole? That is Amiga.

Do you see the green square block to the right? That's Multi Processing; running an OS on more than one core and/or more than one CPU.

What you are suggesting is putting that green square block through the round hole. What I am suggesting is that it won't be possible, since it won't fit. This is end of discussion really, or at least it should be.

*Maybe* it would be possible to jig-saw a square shape out of that round hole, and then *continue* calling it "round shaped hole" (since you are in the "round shape business", and this is what we in this "round shape community" is interested in, the "round shape" is what we all are here for after all). But why on earth would one want to do that? It *won't be* a round hole anymore, only by name! None of my round blocks I have come to love throughout the years would be usable anymore, I would have to wait for someone to build up a new stack of square applications since everything round was killed in the process, and then what´s the point? I *already run* several square OS's (that each has a huge library of very professional square applications available already, applications that are industry standard unlike those apps that todays hobby programmers in this round community could achieve even in a ten year development time). In my world it's not an option to destroy that beautiful round shaped hole. And making it square but insisting in calling it round, does *not* make it a round shaped hole.

(BTW, you tell me to "Ask anyone who knows what they're talking about"; I suppose that would be the same clever people that believes that the triangular blocks (Memory Protection) will be a perfect match to the round shape holes as well? )

Last edited by takemehomegrandma on 06-May-2007 at 06:14 PM.

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adiaux 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 13:34:52
#104 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@herewegoagain

I'm not saying that this is a bad CPU in any way. I think it's the most interesting thing that has happened in POWER computing world in many years. I welcome PA Semi and their chips.

I only objected to your comment that this would be a perfect match in an OS4 context. I think it won't be, since OS4 cannot use this to its fullest potential.

But maybe you could "virtualize" the system and run OS4 on one core and Linux on another?

Quote:
It's the only one that currently provides a next gen 64-bit CPU core, along with PCI-e 16X and all of the other bells and whistles in a single package.


Don't want to sound like Hammer (), but note that a 970MP system provides pretty much the same thing, although not in a single package and not below 25W. However, AFAIK the 970 has some kind of 32-bit mode, which would be welcome in an Amiga context (although the multi cores and multi CPU's are just as redundant in this case as in the PA Semi case).

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herewegoagain 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:00:20
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2003
Posts: 3270
From: Charlotte, NC

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

But maybe you could "virtualize" the system and run OS4 on one core and Linux on another?


That would be kinda cool... but for me not necessary. However, if it was easy to implement, then sure, do it!


Quote:

Don't want to sound like Hammer (), but note that a 970MP system provides pretty much the same thing, although not in a single package and not below 25W. However, AFAIK the 970 has some kind of 32-bit mode, which would be welcome in an Amiga context (although the multi cores and multi CPU's are just as redundant in this case as in the PA Semi case).



I understand what you are saying about the extra core, but would there be a big price difference dropping back to a single core version?

And the part about being in a single package and running at 25W vs 100W for the 970MP (just for the CPU cores alone) is part of the my point. Also with the 970, you have the NB which will add even more power consumption. So I stand by the point that it's the only next gen CPU that offers so much into one really power efficient processor.

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ackcontrls 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:13:20
#106 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2006
Posts: 92
From: Unknown

@debrun

I'm just getting tired at the claims that it's not possible. My lack of performance on previously announced products has a lot to do with the information on the situation that has recently become public. There are also a lot of other issues, some financial and some personal, that are not public knowledge.

Regardless, this hardware is becoming a reality, and Amiga Inc. has been the major factor in it. I can only make some people happy, some of the time. In the high end product, I have chosen a CPU that will scale above and beyond the dual 970MPs @ 2.5GHz at a significantly lower power dissipation. Considerations for versions of the Amiga OS beyond 4.0 have also been taken into consideration. Similarly, many users want to be able to run Linux, already running SMP and 64bit on the PowerPC architecture.

In one breath, people are claiming the entry level board is too low end, in a second breath, the same people are saying OS4.0 can't use the power of the high end board so why bother? When I can use a different chip to double the CPU performance on the same motherboard, why wouldn't I use it. Also, knowing that a more than 4x jump will be possible with a slight re-design, why wouldn't I choose it?

Reality is that the IT world has gone 64bit and multicore. Is the PWRficient chip an embedded chip? Present marketting is being directed that way. Guess what? More CPUs are used in automobiles than desktop and laptop computers combined. Pretty big market I would say. Was it intended to be an embedded chip? Good question. Only the folks at P. A. Semi can answer that one completely, but I suspect they were going after Apple for a slice of the PowerPC pie that Freescale and IBM had when Apple made PPC machines.

I am also of the strong oppinion that the flexibility Apple has always had with their "fat" binaries is going to allow them to leverage the best of both the Intel and PowerPC worlds where it makes sense from a business perspective. At the moment PowerPC is out and Intel is the new kid on the block at Apple, but I'm sure their goal is to create products based on CPUs that give them a performance and/or cost advantage.

Adam

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Seer 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:20:14
#107 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@ackcontrls

So, what about a mid range system ? A single core version of the high end model if you will. Just a thought.

_________________
~
Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
~

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herewegoagain 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:22:10
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2003
Posts: 3270
From: Charlotte, NC

@ackcontrls

Thanks for your efforts Adam.

If the high end board is based on the PASemi chip, I think you have gone the correct route. It's a much more future oriented CPU than anything we've seen in this market so far. I'm looking forward to the press release tomorrow.

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Seer 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:22:39
#109 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@takemehomegrandma

Care to rewrite post [ #103 ] ?

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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Cool_amigaN 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:25:39
#110 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1174
From: Athens/Greece

@herewegoagain

There wasn't, isn't, and will be not any new high-end hardware on any platfrom ever, that it's computing power is consumed all the way down form day one by the OS or any application running on it.

If something similar materialises, with OS4 installed *and OS4 development continues* then you will see the benefits.

Anyway, I don't understand this:
"What??? PCI, One RAM Slot, What CPU crap is this?"
fast forwarding one week:
"What??? Mulitcore Prossesor? OS4 will never gonna use it's full potential!"

That's crazy!
Are there any specs that can make you (I am not speaking in personal terms but in general) happy?

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elwood 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:41:00
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3401
From: Lyon, France

@ackcontrls

Quote:
My lack of performance on previously announced products has a lot to do with the information on the situation that has recently become public.

Even making CPU modules??? Don't put the finger on Hyperion-Ainc affair please.

_________________
Philippe 'Elwood' Ferrucci
Sam460 1.10 Ghz
AmigaOS 4 betatester
Amiga Translator Organisation

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Insanity 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:42:40
#112 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Aug-2005
Posts: 405
From: Sweden

well, if the high end system will run Ubuntu/sled or something else desktop friendly then I will be hard pressed to resist temptation

I think my wallet would murder me in my sleep if I do that him and buy this system

_________________
Yes I own an Amiga. A non-upgraded A500 that is unpacked once every 3 years.

If you are going to quote me, do so fully or not at all.
/Ins

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Derfs 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:45:35
#113 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 755
From: me To: you

@Cool_amigaN

Quote:

Cool_amigaN wrote:
@herewegoagain

*snip*

Are there any specs that can make you (I am not speaking in personal terms but in general) happy?


i think you replied to the wrong person, or need to re-read what HWGA said

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minator 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:46:17
#114 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
I don't agree. OS4 is a non-SMP 32-bit OS, and even if you manage to get it run on *one* of the two cores somehow (thus ignoring the other), you would end up paying 100% of $1500 for a machine that you will use to 50% of its potential. I fail to see how this could be "the best CPU option"...


So, you have a better choice (which I assume does not involve rewriting a big chunk of the OS, breaking compatibility or losing I/O lanes).

What would that be?

--

I'd like to know why this isn't a desktop orientated system, what makes it appropriate or not?

No, it'll not be as fast as a top end Intel system but then neither is a low end Intel system.
The I/O interfaces are for the most part the same as PCs with the exception of some things (SATA, Audio) which look relatively easy to fix.

It'll be expensive yes, but in a small market that's only to be expected. Like it or not that's the price of not using Windows or Linux.

_________________
Whyzzat?

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Derfs 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 14:47:42
#115 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 755
From: me To: you

@elwood

Quote:

elwood wrote:
@ackcontrls

Quote:
My lack of performance on previously announced products has a lot to do with the information on the situation that has recently become public.

Even making CPU modules??? Don't put the finger on Hyperion-Ainc affair please.


not everything, but alot. dont go jumping to conclusions.

_________________

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debrun 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 15:02:20
#116 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2006
Posts: 347
From: New York

@ackcontrls

No, I think you've made a terrific choice with PA Semi and that it has great potential to grow with OS4. The press & the entry level critics will certainly (or should) acknowledge that this is a strong system.

Get 'er done & I'll buy her!

_________________
If you're going through hell, keep going. -Winston Churchill

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ssolie 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 15:36:10
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2692
From: Alberta, Canada

@takemehomegrandma
Quote:
OK, let's try with some pedagogy for two-yearolds

AmigaOS is evolving beyond your little box analogy. The box is changing. The pieces are changing. Some people can't handle change and stay with the same box and pieces and are happy to play with them the way they are until they die. Enjoy your little box while the adults move on to bigger and better things.

_________________
Be authentic. Get AmigaOS.
Amiga Users of Calgary (AMUC)

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dirigent 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 15:50:56
#118 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2003
Posts: 169
From: Unknown

@ackcontrls

Quote:
Considerations for versions of the Amiga OS beyond 4.0 have also been taken into consideration.


Well, somehow it was my suspicion that you would already have thought about some of the most obvious questions/doubts regarding your design... If we can get an up-to-date machine with the ability to dual-boot OS4 and Linux for around $1500, that will be just great. I hope it can become a reality.

One thing which puzzled me a little was your comment that you were in negotiations with AI about a licence for a long, long time. Maybe when the dust has settled a little you would be ready to shed some more light on this for us poor die-hard crackpot zealots? Was the OS4 ownership issue really the main obstacle in all this? When/why did things finally start moving? Was there any noticable change in attitude at AI?

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CodeSmith 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 16:06:33
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@takemehomegrandma

Wow, I'm speechless. What a great combination of a completely inappropriate analogy and an insult to my intelligence. I applaud you, sir.

Now kindly explain to me (text please, not plastic cubes) what, if anything, will go wrong when I run two tasks on a two CPU system, with each task's CPU affinity tweaked so that both CPUs are executing code from different tasks simultaneously. You may assume that the code for these tasks has been written with a multitasking environment in mind, so if they need to share data they already make use of signals, semaphores, etc.

Bonus points: Assume there is no memory protection mechanism in place. Does this affect your answer?

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CodeSmith 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 6-May-2007 16:22:54
#120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote:
@CodeSmith

Sure if you got an OS designed to give each task it's CPU, and more importantly if you got apps that "know" other task are running at the very same time.


Wake me when you worked out those 2.


The first one is a given, OS4 will have to be modified to manage both CPUs. I never said the OS was going to remain unchanged; in fact, the Friedens have said they have already made some changes in that direction in the new memory system. For the second one: Yesterday, I ran Visicalc on my dual core computer, just to see if it worked. It worked rather well actually, and I had some fun playing with this 25 year old program. Did the guy who wrote Visicalc add dual-core support to it? I suspect not...

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