@AV

Quote:

AV wrote: @wegster Quote: I'm expecting this to become a flamefest at some point. Technically, the distribution of the original uploaded image is illegal, and against copyright law, possibly among others. I believe posession is also considered the same way. However, having said that, I don't believe discussion of such a thing is. And, interestingly, no one whose code was distributed in this has spoken up, nor has ACube. You have a PM. I hope it'll be enough.

PM received and passed on to Staff forums for discussion. I may yet post it in here, as I believe you did give permission to do so?

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Looking forward to reading Andrea's comments (if published).

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cheers
tony

Hyperion Support Forum: http://forum.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php

Here is the PM received from AV, with email removed, as he did give permission to quote the message.

Quote:

Hi. Regarding the thread about the project Moana files, I'd like to point out some facts that I would like to acknowledge as an AW.net moderator. First of all, I'm the author of said port, done over an year ago on behalf of ACube, you can contact me directly at email removed . In the thread I'm referring to, you (and others) are discussing the content of the CD, some even had it running on MacMinis. Such ISO image not only contains parts of OS4 (a commercial product) but also contain modules that are NOT part of either OS4 for A1 nor Classic, and are fully copyrighted by me. I never gave permission to anyone, least this AmigaMac guy, to distribute these files. So owning and using those modules is breaching my intellectual property (IP) and is a clear act of piracy. So unless Aw.net is a forum which allows and is favorable to piracy, I suggest you post a notice on said thread and stop discussing about it. You can quote this message if you want. As you probably have seen by the european lawsuit, between me, the two Friedens and against Hyperion and AInc, I'm more than willing to protect my IP from piracy or any other form of unauthorized use. For the record, that ISO image was obtained from a stolen laptop and there is a police report about that (in the USA). That AmigaMac guy is not some benefactor, he's a criminal. So far I hadn't written or posted anything because I didn't want to stir up more mess that it was already, and because the (micro) kernel on that ISO image will crash after few minutes of intensive use. But seeing one of the moderators of Aw.net happily displaying a list of stolen files seems an endorsement of piracy from AW.net. I can't let it pass.

The matter is under Staff discussion. Right now, I don't know that the above changes anything, other than to know publicly that at least one of the developers involved is quite unhappy about this, understandably so.

No one has done so yet, but as a reminder - as it seems that at this point in time, it's confirmed the 'leaked' ISO does indeed contain OS4 + Moana files, do NOT post any links as to where to download this file.

Last I checked, discussion is still legal, even about subjects that may not be legal, so this thread will remain, but may be locked or removed at some point, pending Staff discussions of the matter.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: @Raffaele Quote: Sure just the ancient PPC Apple MacMini which are still available on second hand market are not enough to raise the number of Amiga users. You're kidding, right? Compared to 1000 or so OS4 users? And ancient? Compared to both classics and A1s? I'm thinking you're still asleep here...

Hello guy? Maybe you missed the statement where it is said that the loader works only with 1.5 GHZ PPC G4...

If you find more than 500, max 1000 in the whole second hand macintosh market, then made me a whistle...

I think that now the real advancement it will be if hypotetically Acube could ask publicly both Amiga Inc. and Hyperion to complete Moana without suffer any problem, and put in on the market paying royalties to both firms until one of them will be entitled by court judgement who is the real owner of AmigaOS...

Then ACube will pay royalties for the loader just only to the legal owner of OS4.0, once one of the contendants will win the court trial...

But to prevent any piracy, and to prevent that someone could hack the loader and made it run on any Macintosh machine, and in order to prevent AmigaOS 4.0 to be pirated, then we need that one OFFICIAL loader will come out on the market as soon as possible with the permission and the blessings of all figures involved in court trial...

When a superior danger incomes (and actually the danger is to see AmigaOS pirated on Macintoshes), then all people of good sense should bury the war axe and cooperate for the benefit of all community,,,

And I hope they will start to being smart at this point of the story, if they want to get their money renevues coming from from royalties from sells of AmigaOS worldwide, instead than SPENDING their money with lawyers and court trials...

Just my two cents...

AH!... If only Amiga Inc. and Hyperion were so smart to stopping these nonsense trial!

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

First of all, I would like to ask you to stop being so bloody obnoxious. You are making yourself extremely hard to deal with, with the patronising tone, failed sarcasm and language barrier.

Quote:

Hello guy? Maybe you missed the statement where it is said that the loader works only with 1.5 GHZ PPC G4... If you find more than 500, max 1000 in the whole second hand macintosh market, then made me a whistle...

At any given point in time, there will be more 1.5GHz Minis in the market *for sale* than the total number of AmigaOne SE, XE, Micro, Pegasos 1, Pegasos 2 and Efika machines ever made put together. Probably by a certain order of magnitude as well. Perhaps you have completely missed the fact that Apple do not produce 500-1000 a month, they produce one hell of a lot more and the 1.5GHz models were being produced for a full five months.

Last edited by Zardoz on 31-Dec-2007 at 10:40 PM.

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@Zardoz

Quote:

Zardoz wrote: At any given point in time, there will be more 1.5GHz Minis in the market *for sale* than the total number of AmigaOne SE, XE, Micro, Pegasos 1, Pegasos 2 and Efika machines ever made put together. Probably by a certain order of magnitude as well. Perhaps you have completely missed the fact that Apple do not produce 500-1000 a month, they produce one hell of a lot more and the 1.5GHz models were being produced for a full five months.

Just for some real numbers to agree with you, the Macmini PPC (all models) averaged a little over 1000 units per day, over 30,000 a month for the year or so they were available in the PPC format, thats from both IDC and Apples Annual reports. So one days sales of the Macmini converted to OS4 machines would double the number of OS 4 machines out there.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Zardoz Just for some real numbers to agree with you, the Macmini PPC (all models) averaged a little over 1000 units per day, over 30,000 a month for the year or so they were available in the PPC format, thats from both IDC and Apples Annual reports. So one days sales of the Macmini converted to OS4 machines would double the number of OS 4 machines out there. -Tig

If you find all these MacMini PPC which could be converted in Amiga machine ACTUALLY... and you find all of them in the second hand market then made me a whistle again...

I want to see if we are barely capable to reach 200 or some more users...

Sure we will be not even capable to double our userbase...

And sure people have not the sense of real here in Amigaland...


The only real opportunity here it will be Amiga inc. and Hyperion to let ACube to be legally entitled to finish the project Moana they started... then to see Amiga Inc. to legally entitle Hyperion to create a modified version of AmigaOS 4.0 for Moana, and then all three firms to get benefit from renevues of Moana + AmigaOS4.0 sales coming from thousands of new Amiga users.

But I do not believe that they are so smart to create such a market...

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Cheese wrote: @Raffaele http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Alberto_Bertorelli

It is the first time I heard of this character...

That sitcom was not enough famous to reach Italy as it did lots of english tv serials, and for example "UFO enemy unknown", "The Avengers", "The New Avengers", "A man about the house", "George and Mildred", The Persuaders, "Sapphire and Steel", "The Survivors", "The Professionals", "The Saint", "All Creatures Great and Small", "The prisoner", "Children of the Stone", "Doctors on the go", "Doctor Who", "Shoestring", "The Duchess of Duke Street", "The Top Secret Life of Edgar Briggs", "Shirley's World", and the immortal sketches of "Monty Python's Flying Circus", "Mister Bean" and "The Benny Hill Show"! ans some other I don't remember the name...

I don't know if the Captain Alberto Bertorelli it is the typical character depicting italians in english sitcoms... Does he so?

Sure in Italy the foremost known sketch about english characters, and their peculiar behaviour it is the "Romantic English Lady" performed by italian actor Enrico Montesano in lots of sketches.

Spot that lady in the end of the list of characters:



It is the character of a very funny english lady mad for italian lovers...

Last edited by Raffaele on 01-Jan-2008 at 12:09 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 01-Jan-2008 at 12:05 AM.

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@Raffaele

I'm sure he's not...and that's my point. Your babble made me think of an extreme.

Last edited by Cheese on 01-Jan-2008 at 01:21 AM.

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x86/MorphOS 4.0

"Delving into the past can be a dangerous exercise." -hyperionmp

"I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing." -Snuffy

"I personally prefer a vision of do'ers and makers rather than

@Raffaele

Quote:

Raffaele wrote: If you find all these MacMini PPC which could be converted in Amiga machine ACTUALLY... and you find all of them in the second hand market then made me a whistle again... I want to see if we are barely capable to reach 200 or some more users... Sure we will be not even capable to double our userbase... And sure people have not the sense of real here in Amigaland...

Our current market is less then 1000 on the A1, there is less then 1/2 that many working Cyberstorms. There are 100 of 1000s of MacMini PPCs out there. Implying thats a smaller market because they arent for sale anymore is silly. Cyberstorms havent been available for years, the last A1 rolled off the production line 3 years ago.
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 01-Jan-2008 at 07:21 AM.

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: Our current market is less then 1000 on the A1, there is less then 1/2 that many working Cyberstorms. There are 100 of 1000s of MacMini PPCs out there. Implying thats a smaller market because they arent for sale anymore is silly. Cyberstorms havent been available for years, the last A1 rolled off the production line 3 years ago. -Tig

There are 100 of 1000s nothing nulls out of there...

Want you all to understand yhe fact that this loader it is built around just one peculiar hardware and firmware MacMini model?

And seems it barely works... IF it works, just only on that model...

To adapt the loader on any MacMini, IMac, Powerbook, etc... you need a MASSIVE work to adapt it to recognize various models of motherboards, HD controllers (Mac IDE/SCSI), audio chips, graphic cards and/or graphic chips...

As I read the message from NTN he got just stolen a laptop computer with all the files of the loader of it... sad story...

So all what the pirate AmigaMac have, is a stolen incomplete copy of Moana... Nothing really usable, and it requires still months of hard work to complete it...

This is only a task which could be performed by ACube...

And they who own the intellectual properties of Amiga, then they can only ask to ACube to complete the loader, if they really want to enter in the profitable market of second hand Macintoshes, increase the userbase and expand Amiga software market...

Only when we will have a complete working Moana, and with various emulation modules to let it being compatible not only with MacMini, but also with IMac, Powerbook, etcetera... ...THEN we will access the 100 of 1000s Macintosh machines you pointed that it exists out there...

Last edited by Raffaele on 01-Jan-2008 at 08:29 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 01-Jan-2008 at 08:26 AM.

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"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

@wegster
If the files/ISO were really from a stolen laptop, and it wasn't an intentional (but plausible-denial) leak from at least one the main developers, then I guess no hints as where to download it should be allowed. But since proving that one way or another is not really possible, I guess it has to be up to the judgement of the AmigaWorld staff...

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Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

Based on his rantings, I'm starting to think that Rafaelle is just an employee of Acube or at least someone with a financial interest in Acube. If Acube has been working on an OS4 loader for the SAM440 and if someone comes up with a loader that works on the MacMini, then it would definitely cut into their hardware business. I know I'd certainly buy a complete MacMini rather than just a SAM440 motherboard. I'm sure the MacMini would be cheaper as well. He keeps insisting that only Acube has the resources and knowledge to come up with a working loader and other irrelevant mish-mash.

I wish he would either go away or keep the thread on topic. When/if someone comes up with a loader that allows me to install OS4 on a MacMini, then I will take the plunge, buy a copy of OS4 and a MacMini. All this talk about piracy and thievery is just smoke and mirrors.

@Raffaele

Quote:

Want you all to understand yhe fact that this loader it is built around just one peculiar hardware and firmware MacMini model?

A model produced for 5 months at 1000s a day.

Quote:

And seems it barely works... IF it works, just only on that model...

It seems to load and run the kernel all right.

Quote:

To adapt the loader on any MacMini, IMac, Powerbook, etc... you need a MASSIVE work to adapt it to recognize various models of motherboards, HD controllers (Mac IDE/SCSI), audio chips, graphic cards and/or graphic chips...

Massive work? Maybe you're overestimating the differences between the MacMini revisions. Audio chips and stuff are probably standard but I haven't really checked. Graphic cards? The mini uses a 9200, last time I checked that was supported. Storage? The Mini has no SCSI and neither does any modern PPC Mac.

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So all what the pirate AmigaMac have, is a stolen incomplete copy of Moana... Nothing really usable, and it requires still months of hard work to complete it...

It is useful enough to successfully load the kernel. Whether it's usable for anything else is up to whether it has a working storage driver.

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Only when we will have a complete working Moana, and with various emulation modules to let it being compatible not only with MacMini, but also with IMac, Powerbook, etcetera... ...THEN we will access the 100 of 1000s Macintosh machines you pointed that it exists out there...

No, we've pointed out that 100s of 1000s of 1.5GHz Mac Minis (Mac Minis of the right firmware and revision) exist. Are they out for sale? They will be. It's far more likely that you will find a Mac Mini of the right revision for sale than a working Blizzard or Cyberstorm PPC.

Just to clarify: I do not agree with what that AmigaMac guy did, releasing stuff that are not his, especially if the allegations of theft are true. HOWEVER, I do not see why people are treating it as if it's the worst thing to have ever happened to the Amiga.

And I really really do not see what your completely irrelevant comments about Italians have to do with anything.

Oh, and drop the tone, this is an actual warning. I don't see anyone else here being even remotely as rude as you. Even AV, whose IP has been infringed, has been extremely civil about this.

Last edited by Zardoz on 01-Jan-2008 at 12:34 PM.

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@ferrels

Quote:

Based on his rantings, I'm starting to think that Rafaelle is just an employee of Acube or at least someone with a financial interest in Acube. If Acube has been working on an OS4 loader for the SAM440 and if someone comes up with a loader that works on the MacMini, then it would definitely cut into their hardware business. I know I'd certainly buy a complete MacMini rather than just a SAM440 motherboard. I'm sure the MacMini would be cheaper as well. He keeps insisting that only Acube has the resources and knowledge to come up with a working loader and other irrelevant mish-mash.

The loader was written by ACube, hence the whole mish-mash.

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@Zardoz

AFAIK, for the time being ACube only *distributes* software. The loader was written by Andrea Vallinotto et al.
Raffaele is just an excited supporter of ACube, not an employee or a shareholder.
It cannot be any simpler, really. No need of conspiracy theories.

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La fortuna è cieca. La sfiga ci vede benissimo.

@sgm

Quote:

Raffaele is just an excited supporter of ACube, not an employee or a shareholder. It cannot be any simpler, really. No need of conspiracy theories.

Never claimed he is and I never said anything about any conspiracy theory. Someone else did. I didn't think it was anything more complex than the authors being royally p***ed off about people releasing their work without permission. I just think that Raffaele is being obnoxious, as if people have attacked his national identity.

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@Zardoz

Quote:

It is useful enough to successfully load the kernel. Whether it's usable for anything else is up to whether it has a working storage driver.

I personally can't see how a kernel that will crash after a few minutes of use can be called "useful" for anything...

Long link edited by moderator!

Quote:

So far I hadn't written or posted anything because I didn't want to stir up more mess that it was already, and because the (micro) kernel on that ISO image will crash after few minutes of intensive use.

Last edited by zerohero on 01-Jan-2008 at 04:42 PM.

@Zardoz

Let's keep the nationality out of this.

We all know that Raffaele is an easily excitable person, I wouldn't read too much into it.

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www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

@salass00

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I personally can't see how a kernel that will crash after a few minutes of use can be called "useful" for anything...

Ok, I'd missed that. Not to say that I think that justifies Raffaele's behaviour.

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