Team

I was wondering what the FPGA on the SAM440 is/was intended for?

Is it large/powerful enough to be programmed as a "mini-mig" or even a "natami"???

I would love to know.

Darren

@newbee

It's probably too small for that, but there are fun things you can do (like clock ports etc) without having a full amiga-on-a-chip.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Do you have full access to the FPGA?

Could be great for learning and/or prototyping FPGA stuff.

Plus it could make emulation dead fast in the right hands... program the FPGA to be a VIC-II for instance, plug in a Catweasel with a SID chip and you can have true C64 compatibility on your brand new AmigaOS machine.

Why you'd want to is another matter entirely, but it's cool so I'd want to. :) That's just an example, though, there are other more useful things for FPGA chips.
You could possibly use it for more mathematical things... maybe you could program it for MP3 decoding or something, to give minimal CPU usage decoding streams.

@olegil

Probably true but the work being done by the Natami team is pretty inspirational.

I would like to think there was some scope to incorporate some of the Natami but honestly do not know enough about the hardware to know if it's possible.

My original question still stands though. There must have been some intention to including the FPGA in the original design as it would not have been a cheap component.

I would like to hear from ACube as to what it is intended for.

Darren

Last edited by newbee on 19-Sep-2008 at 02:07 PM.

@newbee

Quote:

My original question still stands though. There must have been some intention to including the FPGA in the original design as it would not have been a cheap component. I would like to hear from ACube as to what it is intended for. Darren

My understanding, is it was to be used for embedded applications, POS software, kiosks, that sort of thing, but only ACube know where and how it is being used.

_________________
Peter Swallow.
A1XEG3-800 [IBM 750FX PowerPC], running OS4.1FE, using ac97 onboard sound.

"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't."

@newbee

A wonderful question.

Folks worry about underspec of main processor but that is the Wintel way of thinking. Amiga was custom chipsets. I can see this allowing an api for on-fly reprogramming as needed for:

hardware decoding of audio and video codecs
other co-processors for off-loading the main
emulation of original amiga chipsets so E-UAE never needed
emulation of other game machines as mentioned earlier
specialized hardware for embedded uses

what else?

very exciting and forward thinking, especially if hyperion incorporate these ideas in OS4.x (especially #3 hint hint)...

Nathan

@newbee

Quote:

Is it large/powerful enough to be programmed as a "mini-mig" or even a "natami"???

From what I read on the Natami forum, the LaticeXP FPGA is too small to hold the SuperAGA.
Also, the Natami is designed to reproduce and improve an Amiga in hardware (real 68k CPU, better 'chipset', new 3D core, ...). As I understand, it is better to add PPC support to the Natami than try to port the Natami on a PPC motherboard. (See here and here.)

Last edited by AmigaPhil on 20-Sep-2008 at 04:50 PM.

@AmigaPhil

Yes, the chatter from those forums does seem to indicate a Natami/SAM440 hybrid is not going to happen anytime soon.

Still, they are both fantastic pieces of kit that well justify their own separate existence. Personally I'm intending to buy both soon, as I need more expensive toys

I see so much creativity emerging in this community and I was just wishing that it would coalesce into one compelling new platform. Still, if several new and different branches all take hold and develop on their own paths, that would not be a bad thing either.

Darren

(It seems that it doesn't matter how often I proof read what I've typed I still make embarrassing typos.... Sheesh... )

Last edited by newbee on 24-Sep-2008 at 12:50 PM.
Last edited by newbee on 24-Sep-2008 at 12:49 PM.

@topic

Please have a look here: [post #36]

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=26934&forum=2&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#456826

@newbee

Keep in mind that the Sam also has a PC104 connector, which is accessible via the CPU and the LatticeXP FPGA on board. So it would be possible to interface the Sam with a natami or similar board through that connector for instance. Basically through that port any custom hardware could easily be interfaced to the Sam. Interfacing through that port is much easier than through a PCI bus, and so it opens a lot of possibilities for simpler home-built custom hardware addons, similar to how a lot of hardware appeared for the clock port of the A1200, just that this port is much faster.

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote: @newbee It's probably too small for that, but there are fun things you can do (like clock ports etc) without having a full amiga-on-a-chip.

Would it be powerful enough for emulating ECS for example?

@newbee

After reading that the FPGA can not be re-configured using the CPU because it is already partly in use to route some signals around - better forget about it.

Does not look to me like any end-user should care about the FPGA unless it comes pre-programmed with some application already.

Like an additional PCI-Interface or PS/2 interfaces or LCD-Interface.

If it's not already in there and if it's true that the CPU can't re-configure the FPGA, hardly any normal user will ever be able to program it.


I have a lattice programmer at work, may be a nice opportunity to explore this however.

@Shadowolf

Quote:

After reading that the FPGA can not be re-configured using the CPU ...... - better forget about it.

Where'd you read that. If no workaround is feasible, would be very disappointing. Seems like SAM could be used in some novel ways if the FPGA were on-the-fly reprogrammable - and help justify the extra cost. YEAH, your Intel motherboard might be faster, but can it do _this_?

Quote:

already partly in use to route some signals around

Why does "partial use" preclude using it further. Seems as long as this core functionality is preserved, you could add additional logic on top.

Quote:

Does not look to me like any end-user should care about the FPGA unless it comes pre-programmed with some application already.

End-users no. But developers yes. Many software developers have hardware backgrounds and Verilog is not too difficult to pick up if you have programming skills.

So, I see no reason this capability wouldn't be exploited if it is available and reprogrammable by the CPU -- even if some trickery is necessary, someone will find a way.

Last edited by jingof on 24-Sep-2008 at 07:39 PM.

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@Shadowolf

You normally don't need a special programmer just to reprogram an FPGA system. Unless you actually want to do on-the-fly uploads and tests. Usually you just rewrite the FPGAs bootflash and reset it so that it loads in the new configuration from flash.

So you could even use the FPGA to reprogram itself

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@COBRA

Quote:

Keep in mind that the Sam also has a PC104 connector, which is accessible via the CPU and the LatticeXP FPGA on board. So it would be possible to interface the Sam with a natami or similar board through that connector for instance. Basically through that port any custom hardware could easily be interfaced to the Sam. Interfacing through that port is much easier than through a PCI bus, and so it opens a lot of possibilities for simpler home-built custom hardware addons, similar to how a lot of hardware appe

As I see it this is mostly about data aquisition and process control. I'm thinking that the zigbee option may be an example. Considering industrial uses, I can suppose that the SAM board would be mostly embedded in the machinery, as it were. It makes sense that amendments to data aquisition and process control (scanning? routing data? controlling something?) would be made via a connection from some other more accessible computer.

So how would the fpga, the PC104 connector and zigbee tie in together and can we use all this from OS4.1? - or would we, in the short term, have to do any programming from the PC laptop for instance?

Noel

@Shadowolf

Quote:

After reading that the FPGA can not be re-configured using the CPU because it is already partly in use to route some signals around - better forget about it.

I don't see this as meaning that it can't be done. What are those signals and does it really matter if they become Hi-Z while reprogramming.

As for the other statement that you couldn't program the FPGA from the onboard CPU:
The CPU (actually it is a MCU) has 64 General Purpose I/O pins on a connector. Programming the FPGA is done via a JTAG interface needing just 4 pins. So all that is needed is a very cheap cable between two headers (or connector to header) on the board. (bit banging IO pins on a MCU is how most (all?) JTAG programmers work)

Also from the Lattice site:
"
Real Time Reprogramming
LatticeXP FPGA devices have flexible reprogramming / re-configuration modes. Even when the LatticeXP FPGA device is operational, the internal configuration FLASH memory can be reprogrammed in the background via 1149.1 port. When desired the SRAM configuration memory can be reconfigured on the fly (less than 1 mS) from the FLASH memory by toggling a pin or issuing the correct commands through the device configuration ports. In addition, the internal configuration SRAM can also be reprogrammed from sysCONFIG parallel port within tens of milliseconds.
"

Sounds very promising for the hardware assisted tasks like MPEG decoding or hardware assisted emulation to me. Hopefully that sysCONFIG port is also on a header so it could be connected to the CPU Gerneral Purpose IOs so configurations can be changed quickly.

Last edited by Bit7 on 25-Sep-2008 at 02:14 AM.
Last edited by Bit7 on 25-Sep-2008 at 02:13 AM.

@newbee

Don't want to rain on anyone's parade but did anyone think to ask Acube what the FPGA on the SAM440 is used for?

painter

@painter

Quote:

painter wrote: @newbee Don't want to rain on anyone's parade but did anyone think to ask Acube what the FPGA on the SAM440 is used for? painter

see post 33 here