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      /  No more IDE, RAD please
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elwood 
No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 9:47:50
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3428
From: Lyon, France

Hello,

I see no developers saying they aim at doing a RAD, so I wonder :

Why do you still develop yet-another-IDE? What about doing a RAD instead?

It's time to stop writing code for creating GUIs. It's time to develop faster/easier.

IDE I know so far (past and present / working or not / small or big) :
Reactor
CubicIDE
Emperor
Codebench
Madmonkey IDE
Guidesigner
MindGUI
AVD

Last edited by elwood on 17-Mar-2009 at 05:20 PM.
Last edited by elwood on 17-Mar-2009 at 05:19 PM.
Last edited by elwood on 17-Mar-2009 at 05:10 PM.

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spotUP 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 9:58:40
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 2896
From: Up Rough Demo Squad

@elwood

it's also about time you get a clue before writing a post telling people what to do.

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Jupp3 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 10:47:39
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@elwood

You know, for a while I thought you wanted to use RAD disk exclusively instead of IDE

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abalaban 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 11:03:05
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1114
From: France

@elwood

As I see it there is currently only one IDE developped for AmigaOS 4 it's CodeBench (and even sticking to the author's definition it's not an IDE but rather a 'Development Project Manager'), if we are including non native but working and still available IDEs we also have CubicIDE.
IDEs are not only to design GUI, in fact at the beginning an IDE was something that provided both the source editor and compiling features. That expanded after that to GUI building or even icon editing, XML viewer, graphical class viewer etc.
On the other hand RAD are generally more GUI oriented as you generaly do much of things graphically without typing so much code. I guess we can consider Emperor as some sort of RAD, it's a pity we haven't had any update since a long time last time I tried it it was not so stable... As a programmer the main drawback I can find to RAD systems is due to their advantage : rapidity generally means simplification and thus you don't have as much control on what you are doing compared to hand done code...

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Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

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Hypex 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 12:58:03
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Jupp3

So did I!

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wegster 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 13:05:19
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@elwood

Gotta say, totally agree with Spot and abalaban here. Or was this somehow a 'nice' attempt to make friends and influence people? (just gone way wrong)

The only 'programming editors' for OS4 today are Cubic, CodeBench, or going back further, CygnusEd, and the port of vi(m). Neither of the latter have debugger integration, let alone basic project management. vim is fine for some, and personally, I love vim, but it has limits - large projects with many files really lend themselves much more nicely to an IDE with Project/file management, as well as build failures that can be clicked on and fixed, not to mention the usefulness of having an integrated debugger - maybe you like to use gdb to set breakpoints all over a ton of files by hand, but it's just not terribly efficient vs an IDE.

RAD tools are usually pretty specialized, and don't replace an IDE - many of them create a UI with 'stubs,' where most people continue to use, you guessed it, an IDE, to work on the rest of the code.
So, sorry if Emperor or AVDs UI Builder aren't making you warm and fuzzy, the existence and work on a real, modern IDE is certainly making many of us happy.

Not to mention, where do you get off 'demanding' or telling people what to work on? Your wording could really use a bit of work....

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elwood 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 17:15:43
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3428
From: Lyon, France

@wegster

I updated my original post.

Note that I don't want to influence more than a user (and potential customer) can do

I do think if someone does an IDE, he can do as well a RAD. Is it a good thing or not?
Difficult to say, but when I see RealBasic, WinDev or PureBasic I do think they are so nice that I want them!
It means I'm ready to pay for that. But I never seen any willing to build such tool.
Hence the question: why?

Last edited by elwood on 17-Mar-2009 at 05:17 PM.

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elwood 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 17:22:11
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3428
From: Lyon, France

@abalaban

Quote:
As a programmer the main drawback I can find to RAD systems is due to their advantage : rapidity generally means simplification and thus you don't have as much control on what you are doing compared to hand done code...

This should never happen. The RAD should allow you to control the GUI by code like adding/removing a gadget if you want to.

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abalaban 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 17:39:08
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1114
From: France

@elwood

Quote:
This should never happen. The RAD should allow you to control the GUI by code like adding/removing a gadget if you want to.

I agree with you but generally they are providing their own classes over the system classes that are not fully exposing everything the system one does (and generally does not evolve with the system).
Just look at Delphi, PowerBuilder or VisualBasic on Windows even if they all have their advantages they don't provide access to all what you would by either using VisualC++ for example.

Oh and as I'm here I want to note that I'm just exposing my own opinion, and not bashing your own. I think your post have been misinterpreted as falsely aggressive.

EDIT: for me Reactor, MindGUI, GuiDesigner are not IDEs but GUI designers because all they are generating is GUI code you then have to pick up and use in your own hand written and compiled source code ; Emperor and AVD (?) can be considered as RAD (please note that AVD currently have not been updated since some time and the AVD free is 'only' some code template), MadMonkey IDE has never been publically published yet. So this leaves us with only CodeBench and Cubic and whereas Cubic is multi platform (OS3.x/OS4/MOS) Codebench is OS4 only and we only saw a "limited" beta yet.

Last edited by abalaban on 17-Mar-2009 at 05:46 PM.

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Hans 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 19:35:11
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@elwood

Personally, I would prefer to have an integrated debugger first, before work starts on a RAD tool.

It really is a pity that AVD hasn't progressed because it looked like a promising RAD tool that wasn't just a copy of other typical RAD tools. I get the impression that he relied on Amiga OS' user-base expanding significantly years ago, and being able to fund the project from a web-hosting business; neither of which went as planned.

Hans

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MadMonkey 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 19:42:19
#11 ]
Member
Joined: 5-Dec-2007
Posts: 23
From: Unknown

@elwood

An integated GUI designer is being worked on and will support both MUI projects \ Reaction projects ;)

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elwood 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 20:07:12
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3428
From: Lyon, France

@Abalaban

You're right IDE <=> gui designers

@Hans

Quote:
Personally, I would prefer to have an integrated debugger first, before work starts on a RAD tool.

So true.

@MadMonkey

This is a first step and a required one of course.
Thanks.

Last edited by elwood on 17-Mar-2009 at 08:09 PM.

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Trev 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 20:11:59
#13 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 778
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

RAD tools are great for allowing inexperienced developers to pepper the enterprise (or the world) with poorly designed, crap software. Everyone else that must support 10,000+ Microsoft Access databases feels my pain. Outside userland, I don't know anyone that uses RAD tools for anything other than rapid prototyping. Even that's dangerous, as the prototype often becomes the basis for the design and not the other way around.

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Hans 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 20:24:53
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@Trev

That's a rather negative view of RAD. I think that visual tools have their place in GUI design, given that the GUI is a visual element. As a general rule I think that GUI code looks ugly, and is tedious to write.

I see no reason why a RAD tool can't be used to build quality software. However, I'd like to see a RAD tool that offers the opportunity for the developer to see the actual code, and maybe even edit it directly. Too many RAD tools (including ReActor) hide the actual implementation away, thus restricting the programmer to using one preset way of doing things.

Hans

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Trev 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 17-Mar-2009 20:50:07
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 778
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Hans

I don't have anything against graphic design tools, whether they're used to build GUIs or whiten teeth. GUI design should be left to graphic designers and usability experts anyway.

RAD tools, on the other hand, tie design elements to code in a limiting way. There's also a tendency to rely on RAD tools to "know" the designer's intentions, and an inexperienced programmer will assume that everything is correct simply because they clicked on the right sequence of buttons.

Not every RAD tool is bad (Visual Basic 6.0 is still useful for modeling legacy Windows applications, for example), but in the wrong hands, they can do more harm than good.

Tools that attempt to generate code based on input from modeling languages like UML are at least working in the write direction, but they suffer from the same misconceptions re: correctness that plague other RAD tools.

EDIT: A RAD tool that attempts to teach, though, can be quite useful. But I think what everyone really wants (as pointed out previously) is an easy to use layout tool that works in conjunction with an IDE.

Last edited by Trev on 17-Mar-2009 at 08:53 PM.

_________________
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borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
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elwood 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 18-Mar-2009 9:23:15
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3428
From: Lyon, France

@Trev

Quote:
A RAD tool that attempts to teach, though, can be quite useful. But I think what everyone really wants (as pointed out previously) is an easy to use layout tool that works in conjunction with an IDE.

Having both would be nice obviously.

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AmigaOS 4 betatester
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DualCrew 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 18-Mar-2009 12:49:51
#17 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Sep-2003
Posts: 63
From: Belgium

Quote:

elwood wrote:
@wegster

I updated my original post.

Note that I don't want to influence more than a user (and potential customer) can do

I do think if someone does an IDE, he can do as well a RAD. Is it a good thing or not?
Difficult to say, but when I see RealBasic, WinDev or PureBasic I do think they are so nice that I want them!
It means I'm ready to pay for that. But I never seen any willing to build such tool.
Hence the question: why?


I agree 100%

You just forgot the one of the most easier and powerfull: AutoIt it's a complete dev env with an editor (Scite) and a gui designer (Koda). With autoIt you can do powerfull applications in few time.

But it's deeply linked to Microsoft windows API and can't be ported to another system easily as i know (The question and the answer arise when some linux users asked why not porting AutoIt to linux).

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JamieKrueger 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 18-Mar-2009 16:20:04
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2004
Posts: 147
From: From the BITbyBIT lab: USA

@abalaban

Quote:
(please note that AVD currently have not been updated since some time and the AVD free is 'only' some code template)

While it is true that updates to AVD have not been seen by the public for some time,
the project still exits and will be returning to active development. I would also like to
point out the "FreeAVD" is not just the currently available free AVD Template, but
rather a Freeware version of the entire AVD development suite.

Best Regards,

Jamie

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jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

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abalaban 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 18-Mar-2009 16:44:08
#19 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1114
From: France

@JamieKrueger

Quote:
I would also like to
point out the "FreeAVD" is not just the currently available free AVD Template, but
rather a Freeware version of the entire AVD development suite.


Oh where is it ? Currently I only see the AVD Templates and the SDK Browser (free that's true). I agree that that *was* the plan of FreeAVD but this plan has (saddly) never publically materialized (despite your promising projects and intersting ideas).

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JamieKrueger 
Re: No more IDE, RAD please
Posted on 18-Mar-2009 19:17:37
#20 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2004
Posts: 147
From: From the BITbyBIT lab: USA

@abalaban

I did not see the point in making it public until it was actually finished,
or at least more directly usable. Part of the system of course,
(the SDK Browser), has been released and available for some time.
Each part of the AVD (or FreeAVD system as the case may be), is
both usable as a standalone program, and together as a suite.

However, since each component can actually instruct the others
within the suite to handle certain shared functions, (using a real-time
messaging system), they are really meant to work the best together.
This is the main reason I was waiting to make FreeAVD public, as I
wanted as much of the system made available at the same time as
possible.

_________________
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BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

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