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tomazkid 
Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 2:49:26
#1 ]
Team Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11691
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

Who has the rights to AmigaOS 1.x and 2.x ?

Hyperion Entertainment has the right to AmigaOS 3.1 to develop AmigaOS 4.x ?

Haage and Partner has the rights to AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9?

Cloanto has the right to use OS 1.x, 2.x and 3.x in AmigaForever?

Does anyone here know who owns what in this mess?

Last edited by tomazkid on 24-Dec-2009 at 02:50 AM.

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Chuckt 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 4:23:34
#2 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2008
Posts: 445
From: Unknown

@tomazkid

When Commodore was sold, was the bill of sale available, online, in public records or viewable? I suppose if it is filed away in a town hall somewhere then it would be notorized. Is this something that is searchable? But if only two witnesses were required to sign for the sale then it may not be public.

How many parties can we actually guess at owning Amiga OS? You can narrow it down unless there are secret agreements.

What possibility exists they were never sold? Could you go back to Gateway and buy the OS?

Someone is going to have to do some digging. Call Gateway and ask for the legal department. They can either tell you or not tell you.

Does anyone have copies of Commodore's bankruptcy proceedings? Maybe something in there can shed some light. Were the managers responsible or accountable to give testimony to the court? If they were, they may have known what was going on and can tell you what happened.

What goals can we make to find out? What would the steps of these goals to find out be?







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Valiant 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 4:27:46
#3 ]
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Joined: 22-Oct-2003
Posts: 1067
From: West of Eden, VT USA

@tomazkid

My imperfect understanding is that Amiga, Inc. owns the rights to AmigaOS 1.x through 3.1 which Cloanto has license to use. Haage and Partner own AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9 which is why Hyperion couldn't use them to develop OS 4.x. And as you stated Hyperion Entertainment has the right to use OS 3.1 to develop AmigaOS 4.x and onward.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 5:21:10
#4 ]
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Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1000
From: Surf City - Huntington Beach, Ca.

@Valiant,

Actually Hyperion Have stated that they have the rights to distribute AOS3.1 in any form or fashion that they please. Also I believe the rights to all AmigaOSX.X. I may be mistaken on the last part but, the OS3.1 statement is in a forum here somewhere.

Chris

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 5:26:51
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@tomazkid

Posted this somewhere else a little while ago, but it is a partial list of companies know to have licensed various versions of Amiga OS. What we don't know that would be important would be things like, which versions of the OS did they license, how long was the license for (indefinite?) , where their licenses transferable (important because I think a lot of these companies have been absorbed into other companies)

I think is not even clear that Amiga Inc "own" any versions of Amiga OS. I think many believe they were just licensed the rights to use it as so many other have been.


Cloanto
CU Amiga in 1993
PC Intern in 1999
Amiga Plus and PC Magazine in 2000
Epic Marketing
Runesoft GmbH
Village Tronic Marketing GmbH for "Amiga OS 3.1"
Hyperion Entertainment VOF
Escom AG
MS MacroSystem Computer GmbH --> MacroSystem Digital Video AG
Tianjin Family Multimedia Co.
Newstar Electronic Corporation
Rightiming Electronics Corporation
Regent Electronics Corp.
Lotus Pacific Inc.



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DAX 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 9:02:47
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@AmigaHeretic
Actually there is a press release where Ainc states they have bought everythig they did not licence.

Hyperion right now owns exclusive rights to OS3.1 in order to use it, sell it as is, licence it to third parties and finally to enhance it in order to develop further iterations of AmigaOS (this is all in the settlement paper that was recently published in full).
They also totally own those further iterations (from 4.0 to infinity).

Amiga Inc is the owner of OS1.x to 3.1 but right now they cannot sell in any shape or form (even slightly modified or under a different name) not only 3.1 but also anything that has a similar architecture to 3.1 (which includes 2.0 and 3.0 for sure) this is also written very clearly in the settlement.

Haage and Partners kept the Source code for 3.9 but I don't think they are allowed to commercialize software using the Amiga name anymore so they are at a dead end.

Those that had previous contracts (like Cloanto) which are still in effect, dwell in a "safe zone" and are left untouched.

Bottom line the only company that will make new products for the Amiga we know and love will be Hyperion.
Ainc is free to make "Amiga branded" products that are unrealated to the Amiga we love (ie: they might have the word "Amiga" in them but they won't have anything to do with the Amiga we know and love).

Last edited by DAX on 24-Dec-2009 at 10:04 AM.
Last edited by DAX on 24-Dec-2009 at 09:07 AM.
Last edited by DAX on 24-Dec-2009 at 09:06 AM.

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BigD 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 9:31:25
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 3675
From: UK

@DAX

Quote:
Ainc is free to make "Amiga branded" products that are unrealated to the Amiga we love (ie: they might have the word "Amiga" in them but they won't have anything to do with the Amiga we know and love).


Why do they bother? The only thing they have of value is the brand itself and the website www.amiga.com! No I didn't buy the Snowman designer or a pc version of a Cinemaware Amiga Game!

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number6 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 15:10:04
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9572
From: In the village

@tomazkid

Quote:
Who has the rights to AmigaOS 1.x and 2.x ?
Hyperion Entertainment has the right to AmigaOS 3.1 to develop AmigaOS 4.x ?
Haage and Partner has the rights to AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9?
Cloanto has the right to use OS 1.x, 2.x and 3.x in AmigaForever?
Does anyone here know who owns what in this mess?


There are some differences in some of the posts drafted on AW vs the documents themselves.

Note the list posted by @AmigaHeretic above:

Quote:
Cloanto
CU Amiga in 1993
PC Intern in 1999
Amiga Plus and PC Magazine in 2000
Epic Marketing
Runesoft GmbH
Village Tronic Marketing GmbH for "Amiga OS 3.1"
Hyperion Entertainment VOF
Escom AG
MS MacroSystem Computer GmbH --> MacroSystem Digital Video AG
Tianjin Family Multimedia Co.
Newstar Electronic Corporation
Rightiming Electronics Corporation
Regent Electronics Corp.
Lotus Pacific Inc.


The above basically taken from Cloanto's page concerning Licensing the Operating System

Compare with the list summarized by @Itix from the documents linked to in the thread Hyperion/ITEC/AMINO Agreement posted on Justia.com
Quote:
And licenses:

Cloanto: worldwide rights sufficient to support Amiga Forever
Hack & Patch: worldwide rights to OS 3.5 and OS 3.9 but Amiga considers license is terminated (dunno if OS 3.5/3.9 is illegal now)
Data Storage Advisors AG: worldwide rights to something
eGames: worldwide rights to kickstart modules
On Broadband Networks: rights in north america for kickstart modules
Envizion: worldwide rights to kickstart modules
Ironstone partners: worldwide rights (until the end of 2015) for stuff for their emulation stuff


The "newer" names on this list from the documents may well have been licenses issued well after the list from Cloanto was drafted years ago.
Most of these names are easily researchable.
For example: On Broadband Networks had plans to compete with Ted Turner.
Quote:
On Broadband Network's game store, also set for a spring launch, will sell more than 500 games marketed with a variety of free-trial, rental and purchase options. Users will be able to play the games both online and, for those they download, offline.

On Broadband Networks would be a competitor to Turner Broadcasting's GameTap gaming network that brought back fan favorites like Uru Live. According to analysts, that gaming network has become a place for smaller game companies to go in the face of big-publisher dominance in the game industry.


So...frankly I think this is a highly complicated and detailed settlement encompassing too many entities. It might be better to just accept what Hyperion can deliver, as opposed to trying to guess what all the other parties might have the rights to do.

#6

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Seer 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 18:08:35
#9 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@number6 / all

Having rights to, doesn't mean owning, esp when it comes to software.

We may even need to define what is the OS that was from C= and what are third party sub parts. Narator, Arexx, stuff like that.

When Gateway owned "everything" several parts may already not be owned by them. IIRC Arexx was not part of the sale I think, or the licence to use it with Amiga OS didn't include 3.x only 2.x. (I admit I may be oh so wrong here (goes for my entire post I suppose)

I suppose Amiga Inc owns whatever was created in house by C= or bought exclusive by C=, other things were licensed by C= that form OS1.x, 2.x and OS3.x and those parts are still owned by parties we may never have heard of.

H&P own parts of OS3.5 and 3.9 but not the core OS.

Hyperion (and partners) have a licence to the OS up to version 3.x except the parts that belong to H&P and own most, if not all of OS4.

Last edited by Seer on 24-Dec-2009 at 06:10 PM.

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Zardoz 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 18:10:41
#10 ]
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Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@tomazkid

I own you all.

Muhahahahah!










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bison 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 18:30:22
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 822
From: N-Space

@Zardoz

Quote:
I own you all.

Muhahahahah!

w000s! (we own other operating systems)

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number6 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 18:34:27
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9572
From: In the village

@Seer

Quote:
Having rights to, doesn't mean owning, esp when it comes to software.


No argument. From @tomazkid's post you can only guess at his intent anyway.
Is it idle curiosity or is he speaking to how we can get new products to market without legal interference.

I certainly prefer to avoid discussing all the ins and outs and leave that to the legal eagles.

But...what we DO need to have an official statement on, is WHO to contact to determine how to proceed with a new product and/or idea.

Let's not forget Jens on AW showing his frustration at not getting any answers re:OS3.x and kickstarts, thereby throwing his plans into eternal limbo. And we've seen Gunnar asking (on behalf of Natami) about any legal implications on their part. etc. etc.

I believe, for the sake of the developers concerning all amiga aspects, we need a contact list to get answers, unless we're operating under the assumption that every developer out there knows how to proceed...

#6

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Seer 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 18:37:17
#13 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@number6

What kind of product ? You mean hardware ? I guess Amiga Inc when it is classic OS related if possible at all (Licenses may be exclusive), if it's OS4 Hyperion.

Don't think any one is really able to do something with OS3.5 and 3.9. (Don't see you getting a license from all involved parties)

Kickstarts and stuff are indeed a bit more difficult, esp since Cloanto holds a license that's pretty "crucial" for their business. Suppose you need to know what kind of license they hold to determine if it's even feasible to get a new license.

Amiga inc is still owner of everything C= Amiga OS pre 3.5 right ? So they are at least the ones who should be able to tell what the status really is. For the (kickstart) parts of OS4 better talk to Hyperion.

Last edited by Seer on 24-Dec-2009 at 06:46 PM.
Last edited by Seer on 24-Dec-2009 at 06:43 PM.
Last edited by Seer on 24-Dec-2009 at 06:39 PM.

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number6 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 19:00:55
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9572
From: In the village

@Seer

Thank you for your additional examples like kickstart, which shows you clearly see the possibility that there may be more than one source to go to for all information. Need I add AGA and expiration date and patent, which might fall under Gateway/Acer, which would add another possible contact to the list?
Natami team has brought this up before as well.

IF a small part of the premise in exposing details of the settlement is to encourage "new blood", I dare say it is wrong to assume that any new comers will know whom to contact about anything. Let's be honest. Jens, Natami team, and many others asked these questions in our public forums. If people knew who to contact, surely they would have written TO those contacts, and NOT asked whom to contact in the forums.
I'm not requesting anything regarding plans be divulged here, nor am I trying to rehash the "show us the map" threads.
I just think that a contact list for developers to get questions answered, so they know how to proceed, is mandatory and somewhat a basic minimum of info to provide here.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 24-Dec-2009 at 07:15 PM.
Last edited by number6 on 24-Dec-2009 at 07:04 PM.

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Rob 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 19:07:31
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5411
From: S.Wales

@DAX

Quote:
Amiga Inc is the owner of OS1.x to 3.1 but right now they cannot sell in any shape or form (even slightly modified or under a different name) not only 3.1 but also anything that has a similar architecture to 3.1 (which includes 2.0 and 3.0 for sure) this is also written very clearly in the settlement.


Can you point me to the page where it say that Amiga inc cannot sell 1.3 -3.1. I only saw that they were excluded from using the 'Amiga OS' and 'AmigaOne' names.

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Seer 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 19:20:28
#16 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@number6

Need I add AGA and expiration date and patent, which might fall under Gateway/Acer, which would add another possible contact to the list?

If all patents are expired wouldn't that mean you can just use it ? (No idea sorry). Anyway, Amiga Inc got the software (licenses etc), remaining stock. Gateway AFAIK kept the "patents" (Maybe even the software patents?)

And what about OCS/ECS then? Same as AGA or more complex ownership ? :-p

If people knew who to contact, surely they would have written TO those contactsj, and NOT asking whom to talk to in the forums.

Some of the parties you need to contact may not be very cooperative/responsive.

In the end, the ("best") ones who could answer everything ownership related is Amiga Inc..

Last edited by Seer on 24-Dec-2009 at 07:28 PM.

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tomazkid 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 20:18:14
#17 ]
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Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11691
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@number6

Quote:
No argument. From @tomazkid's post you can only guess at his intent anyway.


Well, no deep intent really, lets say it is related to BB3, the news item that is currently suspended here on aw.net.

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number6 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 20:26:41
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9572
From: In the village

@tomazkid

Quote:
Well, no deep intent really, lets say it is related to BB3, the news item that is currently suspended here on aw.net.


Just getting around to reading your old mail, eh?
(BB3 was in 2005) Heh.

ok...ok...I realize there's another BB3...

#6

Last edited by number6 on 24-Dec-2009 at 08:31 PM.

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 21:20:35
#19 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@Seer

Quote:
Having rights to, doesn't mean owning, esp when it comes to software.



The problem I see is that things like "Perpetual, exclusive world wide rights"

What does that mean? How can it be exclusive when other people have rights to it? Hyperion and Claonto for example both have "rights" to 3.1 so basically the may have perpetual world wide rights, but it's obviously not exclusive.


How many other people have perpetual rights to Amiga OS 1.x to 3.x ? How many can sublicense or modify or distribute it anyway they wany?


And if a company started selling Amiga OS 3.1 disks and roms how would anyone know for sure (even Amiga Inc) if they have the right to sell it? Many (maybe most) of the companies with rights to Amiga OS predate Amiga Inc.

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Seer 
Re: Who owns what?
Posted on 24-Dec-2009 21:47:40
#20 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@AmigaHeretic

What does that mean? How can it be exclusive when other people have rights to it? Hyperion and Claonto for example both have "rights" to 3.1 so basically the may have perpetual world wide rights, but it's obviously not exclusive.

They have different exclusive rights I suppose;

Cloanto can only sell the OS (parts of) with Amiga Forever, they are not allowed to modify the code, or sell the OS in another way. They are the only ones who can legally sell it with an emulator. They cannot use the OS however to make Cloanto OS1 or something, or make it run/sell it on/with say Minimig.

This may conflict a bit with that Hyperion is able to sell the OS in any shape or form (I think that's what Hyperion said anyway) they see fit, so I guess they could try to make a competitor to Amiga Forever, but then again, why would they bother with that and if Cloanto doesnt object to this new license all is well.

Last edited by Seer on 24-Dec-2009 at 09:57 PM.
Last edited by Seer on 24-Dec-2009 at 09:48 PM.

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