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      /  AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 13:59:11
#381 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@pavlor

Quote:
To be more precise: any newcomers will be deciding between its own computer running AROS and SAM running OS4.


Not telling the whole truth... If AROS is officially supported by C=, that means drivers and testing.

You can theoretically install AROS on any x86 machine but that doesn't mean you'll be able to run it.

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:01:17
#382 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8415
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
You can theoretically install AROS on any x86 machine but that doesn't mean you'll be able to run it.


I can run it in virtual machine.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:01:52
#383 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@pavlor

I can run UAE...

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pavlor 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:03:02
#384 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8415
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
I can run UAE...


So you don´t need to buy "Commodore Amiga" (old or new...)...

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:04:06
#385 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@pavlor

Exactly... but in modern western society wants >> needs

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TCMSLP 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:06:01
#386 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Nov-2009
Posts: 40
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

"How many of those newcomers will go for the 2000 euro Aone not capable of running anything else other than OS4... not many. If any...."

We won't have newcomers. We'll have people like myself who ran Amiga OS >15 years ago, who've kept a vague eye on Amiga developments every few years in the hope something interesting has happened.

Those, when hearing of the new 'Commodore Amiga' will quickly become disallusioned when they realise it doesn't actually run Amiga OS. Thos who hear of the Amiga One X1000 will have the option to spend some (albeit serious) $$$ to support the new platform.

Given the amount of money people returning to Amiga seem to be spending on tricked-out A1200s (towered, PPC, zorro expansions, GFX cards etc) the price of the X1000 doesn't look so bad. It's these people who'll buy and make the machine a success; not newcomers who as you've correctly said will not go for a box "not capable of running anything else other than OS4".

Amiga is extremely unlikely to ever return to the mainstream. However, this doesn't mean the brand should be confused/abused by generic intel desktops running incompatible OS's.

*head desk*

Last edited by TCMSLP on 06-Sep-2010 at 02:12 PM.

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TCMSLP 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:06:20
#387 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Nov-2009
Posts: 40
From: Unknown

*removed duplicate post*

Last edited by TCMSLP on 06-Sep-2010 at 02:07 PM.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:09:50
#388 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@TCMSLP

Quote:
We won't have newcomers


Well, then I wonder just how many X1000s will be sold.

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Hammer 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:09:56
#389 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@T-J

Quote:

T-J wrote:
@WolfToTheMoon

AROS is an API clone of Amiga OS 3.1, identified in the Agreement as 'The Software'. Amiga Inc are prohibited from selling anything running a substantially similar software architecture, either by themselves or through licensees. This includes any substantially similar software, not just one developed by Amiga Inc. No doubt Hyperion would have had MorphOS and AROS in mind when they negotiated this aspect of the agreement.

AROS being open source and free of charge is irrelevant. The agreement clearly states that the Amiga Parties will not distribute, free of charge or otherwise, any software exhibiting a Software Architecture (note - software architecture, not CPU Instruction Set Architecture) similar to the original Software.


"to the extent that such software architecture is protectable under the copyright laws of the United States (a "Substantially Similar Software Architecture").

Does AROS breach United States copyright law?

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Dandy 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:11:26
#390 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:
@Dandy

Quote:


But will they buy "the the much cheaper no-name PC stuff" at an higher price, just because it is labled "Commodere"?



I already have and pretty much all of my friends run branded PCs or laptops(ok, laptops are all branded but by this I mean brands like Toshiba, Sony... that is, somewhat more expensive brand products).



If you set value on having "somewhat more expensive products", you'd be quite well served with the A1X1000, wouldn't you?


Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:

Quote:


For me e.g. the "Commodore" name stands for unprecedented mismanagement, arrogance, incompetence and failure.



For me, it is a lot of nice memories from the late 80s and early 90s. I don't care what they as a company did,



See, this is the difference in our way of thinking.
I take the reliability of an company into account.
And as far as the Amiga is concerned, it wasn't created by Commodore - it was created by Amiga. Amiga then was bought by Commodore.

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:

my C-64 was used by the entire family and it was the first machine we ever bought. To this day I remember unpacking it, even if I was only 4 years old. My father started programming on the C64 and even I had some first steps playing with BASIC.
...



Nothing wrong with that.
My first computer was a CBM 610 (aside from my TI 57 calculator), although I was 29 when I got it back in 1986...

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:

Now please, if you are not interested in x86 commodore or amigas, why go on a posting rampage to persuade me, others or yourself that I'm wrong. IMHO, you're just wasting yours and my time.



Obviously you got me wrong.

Partly I reply to you to put some of your statements straight where I felt they were misunderstandable or just plainly wrong.

And partly I reply to ask questions about e.g. what the benefit of buying an Commodore x86 oveer any other x86 would be.

This has nothing at all to do with persuading you or others or with posting rampage.

It is not that I would not be aware what happens in the x86 world - I got the news of Commodore selling new C64s not from an Amiga forum.

I wish them luck for their endeavour - its just that they don't have anything I need.

And you were so far not able to list the advantage(s) of an Commodore x86 vs. any other x86 that could make me buy one.

I would have expected at least one argument suited to make me think, given the vehemence you're advertising their (still vapor) products here...

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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ruben 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:13:42
#391 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 364
From: Portugal

@TCMSLP

Quote:
Those, when hearing of a new 'Commodore Amiga' will quickly become disallusioned when they realise it doesn't actually run Amiga OS.


Those that would like the experience of running a 1980's/90's OS would be probably be disappointed, yes. But I'd say those that want an OS that is usable in today's world will not miss any Amiga(oid) OS at all, as they stand today.

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TCMSLP 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:14:45
#392 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Nov-2009
Posts: 40
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon


Quote:
Well, then I wonder just how many X1000s will be sold.


Probably a good number, as we have current Amigans plus those (like myself) returning to the Amiga after ~15 years to run an updated Amiga OS on new hardware.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:15:41
#393 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@Dandy

Quote:
If you set value on having "somewhat more expensive products", you'd be quite well served with the A1X1000, wouldn't you?


What can I do on X1000 that warrants me paying 2000 euros + OS4.x?

Because for that money I can buy a used car or several nice x86 computers or a nice vintage Fender... All of which will return their investment and make me productive. X1000 will just make me 2000 euros poorer

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vidarh 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:17:20
#394 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@T-J

Quote:
Of course, CommodoreUSA could simply decide not to bundle AROS, but their PCs really rather depend on having a substantial link back to the original Amiga lineup. In my opinion, running AROS isn't nearly enough, but not running AROS out of the box would be worse.

Basically, if Mr Altman wants to make money, he would be better advised to stick to the Commodore brand and make his money from the nostalgia for the C=64 for now. In the highly unlikely event of this being a success, he could then move onto the Amiga scene with the aid of some PC-64 derived profits, but as it stands the legal situation is too much of a minefield. Why expose a fragile startup to unnecessary risk?


CommodoreUSA are taking a very small legal risk. From their POV they have negotiated a license with the owner of the trademark.

Unless Hyperion can prove that Commodore USA have somehow intentionally caused illegal interference with their business by signing a license with Amiga Inc., their best bet is to get a court to agree that Amiga Inc. can't legally grant the license, and that Commodore USA needs to stop using the trademark.

Commodore USA are unlikely to be more out of pocket than the cost of rebranding their product. Chances are that any attempt from Hyperion to go after Commodore directly would just result in their case getting dismissed almost immediately.

Amiga Inc. on the other hand, that is a different matter - they could have a real problem on their hands.

Note that I'm not saying picking up the Amiga brand for this is smart. I'd rather they didn't.

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TCMSLP 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:20:25
#395 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Nov-2009
Posts: 40
From: Unknown

@ruben

Quote:
Those that would like the experience of running a 1980's/90's OS would be probably be disappointed, yes. But I'd say those that want an OS that is usable in today's world will not miss any Amiga(oid) OS at all, as they stand today.


Indeed, so Commodore USA should market this as a new Commodore PC. It has no link to the Amiga name and doesn't natively run Amiga software. It is not an Amiga and shouldn't be marketed as such. This is the point I've been trying to make for some time now :)

Of course I'm arguing from a common sense perspective whereas Commodore USA are almost certainly coming from a 'abuse the brand name to suck people in' perspective. Only, this has a huge potential to backfire as those interested in the Amiga name will be ex-amigans, who are likely to have similar expectations to myself and react in exactly the same way when they discover it doesn't actually run Amiga OS.


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vidarh 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:28:00
#396 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@Dandy

Quote:
But there ARE computers that are called "Amiga" and have been expanded with an accelerator with an PowerPC chip onboard.
I have one of them.


Why doesn't that argument mean that x86 is fine too? I had a bridge board in my A2000.

I do have a soft spot for PPC, and I dislike x86 a great deal despite using it daily (or perhaps because of...) but I think a lot of the opposition to x86 in the Amiga camp(s), including much of my own, is emotional rather than based on anything rational.

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TCMSLP 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:29:40
#397 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Nov-2009
Posts: 40
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
What can I do on X1000 that warrants me paying 2000 euros + OS4.x?


The X1000 clearly isn't aimed at you. Why do people spend $$$ on accelerator cards for 15 year old machines when a PC rescued from a skip would surely be faster (and free!)? Why do people still spend good money on 30 year old classic cars when a modern GM-something is likely faster, more reliable and with aircon?

I would like to return to Amiga OS because I *like* it. I run windows but dislike it, I run Linux but my day job has killed the enjoyment for me, I've tried OSX and whilst I have no complaints it's just not my thing.

I know I'm not the only one in this category - we may be a minority but the PPC hardware and Amiga OS is aimed at us; those returning to the OS we grew up with and those who've already shown their commitment by investing in SAM's, Amiga One's etc who wish to upgrade.

It may sound crazy but people will spend money on things they love.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:30:58
#398 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@TCMSLP

Quote:
Probably a good number, as we have current Amigans plus those (like myself) returning to the Amiga after ~15 years to run an updated Amiga OS on new hardware.


OS4 market has Sam460 + X1000 + used hardware and older amigas with PPC accelerators. I fail to see "a good number" for X1000 there. Not only that, but the project is already behind schedule. I fail to see the logic of offering a 2000 euros amiga when the world has just seen(maybe not to it's end) the worst economic decline since 1929.

And there is now new competition, AresOne, iMica and Commodore Amigas + MorphOS(sorry, forgot them).

All in all, if they sell more then 1000 units I'll be surprised to say the least...

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 06-Sep-2010 at 02:33 PM.

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djrikki 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:33:55
#399 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2010
Posts: 2075
From: Grimsby, UK

@WolfToTheMoon

to quote from WolfToTheMoon himself:

'...in modern western society wants >> needs '

Last edited by djrikki on 06-Sep-2010 at 02:36 PM.
Last edited by djrikki on 06-Sep-2010 at 02:36 PM.

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TCMSLP 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 6-Sep-2010 14:39:45
#400 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Nov-2009
Posts: 40
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

It would be interesting to hear how many copies of OS4.x have been sold. Those who could afford dedicated hardware (SAM 440/460, PPC accelerators etc) are probably the very same people who'd plan to support the X1000 too. Bearing in mind the economic climate, if say 25% of OS4.x owners intended to upgrade - they could well sell 1000 units. Would 4000 paid users of OS4 be unreasonable? I must admit I have no idea ... but it seems like a reasonable figure given the small size community and the fact multiple retailers make a living selling this stuff (AmigaKit, Versalia etc) as well as enough of a market to make continual development of OS4 worthwhile.

Edit: Add those like myself who may return purely to buy the X1000 ( I've spent probably twice this amount on Amateur Radio kit the last 5 years... and that's "only a hobby" too) ... and the target of 1000 doesn't seem that unreasonable.

I'd assume Trevor and Hyperion have already had these talks and decided the risk was small enough to warrant investing in hardware design etc. I can't see Trevor throwing money into something if the figures/forecasts didn't look reasonable on paper.

Last edited by TCMSLP on 06-Sep-2010 at 02:51 PM.

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