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eXec 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 7-Sep-2010 21:22:08
#501 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso


Quote:

BigBentheAussie wrote:
@Leo

Who owns the Workbench trademark?
I'm pretty sure it is Amiga Inc.
We could probably just drop Commodore from the title and just call it Workbench....
Is that what you want? Really?
Don't you think we're getting enough heat over AROS as it is right now without bringing the issue of A.Inc's involvement into this further?
We wanted to do AROS well before we contacted Amiga Inc. but now I'm not so sure we can even proceed.


@BigBentheAussie



You got the Amiga name, next stop, Workbench....
I want you to take over the Workbench as well...
You gout yourself a real Jackpot then....
no one can stop you!

Take it all!

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nimrod7 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 7-Sep-2010 22:40:52
#502 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 285
From: Poland

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

We've all been talking about Anubis for so long...and its Linux underpinnings.
Perhaps the answer is obvious..and we can do something in a similar vein..
possibly out of necessity because of these legal shenanigans.
I don't know.
We are thinking of creating our own distinctive Linux distro for the PC64 anyway.
Perhaps called "Commodore OS". Not sure we can get away with "Workbench".
Something a little different but hopefully cool. Maybe something E17 based.
If the User wants they can then trigger the auto download and setup of AROS in a virtual machine.
(...)
Perhaps we can do some sort of coherence mode....similar to how Windows runs in MacOSX, that melds the two UI's together.
(...)


what's that ? a C=USA business plan ? you work there or you're assembling a fairy tale ? "we are thinking of creating" ? how does it relate to C=USA site, quoting : "A new, simplified operating system for young children and older folks" = Comodo OS ? are there any devs in C=USA ? sorry mate, looks like an amateur job. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe you should think how you gonna put a fully functional PC into C64 case and more important - how you gonna bring the Amiga+cd-fantasy render to life or maybe it's gonna be maybe sth else maybe based on maybe other design ? at least Comodo OS gonna have icons

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eliyahu 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 7-Sep-2010 23:00:39
#503 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1726
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@nimrod7

nimrod, calling this operation 'amateur' is being generous. allow me to quote this gem from my 'greatest hits collection of eliyahu commodore rants' taken from a recent thread:

Quote:
.... i would imagine that [a C64 emulator for iphone] will make quite a bit more money than barry's fantasy products: products whose software is currently being 'architected' in threads on this very forum in posts between random posters and the 'commodore USA' CTO.



my, what a professional and realistic design process we have the privilege of seeing publicly! i mean, normally in the industry we usually find design work being done by competent, experienced, and professional developers behind closed doors. but not here! perhaps barry believes in 'open community development?' perhaps barry's girlfriend's house just doesn't have enough room with all of that great chinese furniture in it for actual engineers?



ok, ok, i'll tone down the sarcasm now. oh brother, what a soap opera we have here.

if our friend the 'CTO' wants to bring credit to the great furniture empire of barry, 'developing' product like this is a step in the wrong direction. it is, however, very nice fodder for jokes.

-- eliyahu

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nimrod7 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 7-Sep-2010 23:16:49
#504 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 285
From: Poland

@eliyahu

you're right i was to polite, i'm gonna sharpen my wit but at first i must feast my eyes on the next portion of C=USA fanboys' twaddle being excited C=USA VIP wants to speak with them. like watching 3-year olds in the sandbox : "- let's build a spaceship - oh, no, cos if we build ufo gonna kill us - so let's build a tank - agreed! but should we base it on a model of a car ? which car ? - hmm.... let's make a castle - fine"

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ChrisH 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 7-Sep-2010 23:54:38
#505 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@eliyahu
Not that I disagree with you (to be honest I don't actually care what the CTO does since I'm not his target customer) but the Pandora portable gaming console's development almost started off as an "open community development". And while it may be two years late, and the butt of many jokes about being ready in "two more months", it is actually available to buy now (albiet in limited quantities), and seemingly pretty decent (allowing for some initially very wonky quality control).

So "open community development" can work (with difficulty), and can potentially engage your target audience's enthusiasm. Just beware of letting Homer Simpson design your next car...

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eliyahu 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 0:03:22
#506 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1726
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@ChrisH

Quote:
Not that I disagree with you (to be honest I don't actually care what the CTO does since I'm not his target customer) but the Pandora portable gaming console's development almost started off as an "open community development". And while it may be two years late, and the butt of many jokes about being ready in "two more months", it is actually available to buy now (albiet in limited quantities), and seemingly pretty decent (allowing for some initially very wonky quality control).

So "open community development" can work (with difficulty), and can potentially engage your target audience's enthusiasm. Just beware of letting Homer Simpson design your next car...

agreed on all fronts. i'm a big support of 'open development' in software, participating in the fedora and (until recently) opensolaris communities. the pandora project was an example of how incredibly talented enthusiasts can come up with something great. rest assured i was not impuning the potential behind open development in any way. it was just a joke at barry's expense.

but back to pandora and 'commodore USA,' based on what i see so far, i'm not quite sure the two situations are similar. in any way. one had infrastructure, engineers, experienced developers, project managers, and the other, well, has none of these. which isn't to say it could change, but i don't think designing something as complex as an anubis OS clone is really feasible in a few random postings on aw.net.

as a personal aside i recently noted on your website that you used to develop software for EPOC. along with my collection of newtons, the series5 was one of the greatest pieces of kit i owned in the '90s. still works, actually.

-- eliyahu

Last edited by eliyahu on 08-Sep-2010 at 12:10 AM.

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T-J 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 0:19:47
#507 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@nimrod7

As I said in a previous comment in this thread, its all castles in the sky until CommodoreUSA prove their business model with their first real product, that high-spec PC in a C=64 replica case. They've got until Christmas to get the things ready, which still leaves three months to design and implement a C= themed Ubuntu skin.

Whether they can do that... Well. Its possible, but it doesn't look good, does it?

@eliyahu

So, based on what you've found out, It looks as if CommodoreUSA have licensed the name from a possible subsidiary of a company with millions of dollars worth of liabilities that can't afford to pay for its recent purchase of several holdings companies that might own enough rights to operate in most of the world without getting sued.

Am I getting this right?


And by the way, you wouldn't happen to be some sort of detective, would you?

Last edited by T-J on 08-Sep-2010 at 12:33 AM.

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ChrisH 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 0:25:27
#508 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@eliyahu Quote:
back to pandora and 'commodore USA,' based on what i see so far, i'm not quite sure the two situations are similar.

I didn't mean to imply they are! The only connection was the "open community development" that the CTO seemed to be dabbling with.

Quote:
i don't think designing something as complex as an anubis OS clone is really feasible in a few random postings on aw.net.

I don't think Anubis (or a second attempt) is going to happen full-stop, but neither do I think there is harm in trying either. There are times when one can be too critical. Let them try to build their (sand) castle, or get covered in sand trying!

I personally wouldn't be involved in these discussions at all, if it weren't for a few overly enthusiastic Amiga-branded-Linux fans predicting the demise of OS4 (while C=USA apparently takes the world by storm, lol).

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eliyahu 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 0:33:56
#509 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1726
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@T-J

Quote:
I thought I was tackling a difficult question by rooting around in Amiga related court settlements, but it seems that you've been dipping into far murkier waters. It looks to me as if CommodoreUSA have licensed the name from a possible subsidiary of a company with millions of dollars worth of liabilities that can't afford to pay for its recent purchase of several holdings companies that might own enough rights to operate in most of the world without getting sued.

Am I getting this right?


And by the way, you wouldn't happen to be some sort of detective, would you?

yup. that's a pretty good summary, actually.

if we take barry at his word -- and i should point out that there has been zero announcements on the part of ASIARIM as of this posting -- then he has licensed the name from the correct owner. at least assuming ASIARIM can complete its last buyout of one of the remnants of one of the european 'investment firms' that had partial ownership of the trademarks. to date they haven't been especially successful, mostly in maintaining cash flow. their most recent 10-Q filing included a standard warning about whether or not it could survive in the short term:

Quote:
The Company has not generated significant revenues since inception and has never paid any dividends and is unlikely to pay dividends or generate significant earnings in the immediate or foreseeable future. The continuation of the Company as a going concern is dependent upon the ability of the Company to obtain necessary equity or capital financing to continue operations and the attainment of profitable operations. The management will seek to raise funds from strategic investors and/or the shareholders.

they're in the hole to the tune of some $3 million USD at this point. it seems the business strategy was centered on acquiring the commodore marks and applying them to consumer electronics and licensing them to third-parties. hasn't really gotten off the ground floor just yet. the licensing to barry and the royalties associated with the C64 emulator for the iphone certainly appear to the biggest potential sales winners thus far.

and no, not a detective. just increasingly interested in the drama around here. nothing like shady characters threatening to sue good people to get my 'dander up' as it were.

i really don't know. every day i want to give barry and team the benefit of the doubt, and then something else happens that turns that emotion on its head. who knows? maybe this will all get straightened out and they'll produce something cool. stranger things have happened.

-- eliyahu

Last edited by eliyahu on 08-Sep-2010 at 12:43 AM.

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T-J 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 1:04:33
#510 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@eliyahu

Quote:
i really don't know. every day i want to give barry and team the benefit of the doubt, and then something else happens that turns that emotion on its head. who knows? maybe this will all get straightened out and they'll produce something cool. stranger things have happened.


I'd like to see a Commodore PC-64 with perhaps a GEOS-themed 'C=Buntu' Linux distro on it. That would count as reasonably interesting, although I'd only buy it if it were competitively priced and if I was already planning to upgrade. And I'd like to believe that a mutually beneficial solution that grants Hyperion, ACube and A-Eon additional Amiga brands while allowing Commodore to market x86 games machines and keyboardised Minimigs as Commodore-Amigas could be possible. Imagine a range of enthusiast-oriented 'Power-Amigas' from ACube and A-Eon marketed by Commodore alongside their range of games PCs...

But the more that is discovered about them, the less I would personally like to be in business with them. I can't help but feel that if Hyperion were to get involved with them, they'd find themselves back in court defending their trademarks from CommodoreUSA attempting to rebrand a random Linux as AmigaOS...

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Hammer 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 1:30:59
#511 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@elatour

Quote:

elatour wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
Then again, Apple's recent sales numbers showed a 33 percent growth in Mac computer sales between April and June 2010 compared to the same period last year.

Probably due to a large numbers of developers new to iPod, iPhone and/or iPad development buying Macs to develop for these devices.

Honestly though, I really don't know either way whether this is substantially influencing sales of Macs or not, but I'd be willing to bet that the this requirement for development for their mobile devices is having some impact on sales figures. I am also aware that anything Apple certainly has some cachet attached to it these days. some of it deservedly and much of it due to strong marketting, whcih is at least 50% if not more of the reason people buy Apple products these days.

Anyway, whether you love or hate them, nobody can deny that they're more successful than most of their competitors at the moment.

I would love to see someone take our beloved Amiga in this direction and make it a success like Jobs and his team managed to do with the Mac/AppleOS/NextStep, but I don't think this will happen in my lifetime if ever.

Unlike Amiga, Apple Macintosh is stilll unified under Apple Inc. All Apple needs is leadership from Steve Jobs and team. The results speaks for themselves.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Sep-2010 at 01:34 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-Sep-2010 at 01:33 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 1:36:34
#512 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@T-J

Quote:

T-J wrote:
@eliyahu

Quote:
i really don't know. every day i want to give barry and team the benefit of the doubt, and then something else happens that turns that emotion on its head. who knows? maybe this will all get straightened out and they'll produce something cool. stranger things have happened.


I'd like to see a Commodore PC-64 with perhaps a GEOS-themed 'C=Buntu' Linux distro on it. That would count as reasonably interesting, although I'd only buy it if it were competitively priced and if I was already planning to upgrade. And I'd like to believe that a mutually beneficial solution that grants Hyperion, ACube and A-Eon additional Amiga brands while allowing Commodore to market x86 games machines and keyboardised Minimigs as Commodore-Amigas could be possible. Imagine a range of enthusiast-oriented 'Power-Amigas' from ACube and A-Eon marketed by Commodore alongside their range of games PCs...

But the more that is discovered about them, the less I would personally like to be in business with them. I can't help but feel that if Hyperion were to get involved with them, they'd find themselves back in court defending their trademarks from CommodoreUSA attempting to rebrand a random Linux as AmigaOS...

I don't think CommodoreUSA would use Hyperion's "AmigaOS" (TM) .

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Sep-2010 at 01:44 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 1:48:19
#513 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@cha05e90

Quote:

cha05e90 wrote:
@WolfToTheMoon

"Workbench" might be a "trademark". But "Workbench" is also part of "the software". And "the software" IS mentioned...


http://www.amigaforever.com/kb/15-108

Amiga Forever uses the word Workbench™ when referring to the "Classic" operating system environment that runs on top of the hardware

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Hammer 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 2:55:15
#514 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@T-J

Quote:

T-J wrote:
@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
I think you need to reread some of the comments already posted... My conclusion from all of this that there is a bigger chance that earth stops spinning tonight ar 2:41 am than Hyperion having any chance to contest this agreement(between C= and amiga).


And mine is that selling Amiga branded machines with AROS constitutes a clear breach of the settlement between Hyperion and Amiga Inc. Neither of us are any less biased than the other, though, and neither has access to any more information. So let's just wait and see.

@ChrisH

Its definitely not simple, but the text of the settlement seems to include releasing (either on its own or through licensees) an Amiga branded computer running an OS substantially similar to The Software as one of the things Amiga Inc is forbidden to do. As I read it, licensing a 'Commodore-Amiga' running just Ubuntu or Windows would be something Hyperion wouldn't be able to do anything about. But having an 'Amiga-like' in there too is precisely the sort of thing they sought to prevent when they negotiated that part of the Settlement.


Only in the context of "to the extent that such Software Architecture is protectable under the copyright laws of the United States"(1).

Again, does AROS breach AmigaOS's protectable copyright?

1. http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/147/1.pdf Page 28/46 Part B

Last edited by Hammer on 08-Sep-2010 at 03:06 AM.

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longbow75 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 7:02:08
#515 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2005
Posts: 35
From: SF,CA

Umm......
I hate linux. I tried very hard to like it but I'm sorry I couldn't, I can't.
The only way I could use a PC would be one with AROS.
If they put something else, ....good luck to them, I ain't buying it.

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warrenb 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 7:07:43
#516 ]
Member
Joined: 5-Sep-2010
Posts: 12
From: israel

the trademark is at least worth 35 millios dollars...

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eXec 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 8:13:17
#517 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@warrenb

Quote:

warrenb wrote:
the trademark is at least worth 35 millios dollars...


And how do you know that?

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T-J 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 11:23:57
#518 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2010
Posts: 596
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
Again, does AROS breach AmigaOS's protectable copyright?


If you keep on asking me the same question over and over, expecting a different answer to come if you just keep on asking, I am going to rapidly lose interest in the discussion.

As I have replied to you before, AROS on its own or on a random PC doesn't breach anything, as far as I know. AROS on a branded Amiga product released by Amiga Inc. or a licensee of Amiga Inc. breaches the terms of the Settlement as a Substantially Similar Software Architecture, as defined and as enforcable under the copyright laws of the United States.

If you don't agree, fine. I guess we'll find out before long, if CommodoreUSA go ahead with the Amiga side of their plan.

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Leo 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 11:48:07
#519 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1552
From: Unknown

Quote:

Unlike Amiga, Apple Macintosh is stilll unified under Apple Inc. All Apple needs is leadership from Steve Jobs and team. The results speaks for themselves.

True. Other difference is that Apple wants to do something new, beautiful,... They not only want to make money (as any company of course), but something great, unique too.

Any company related to the Amiga today, just wants to make money, with old/already done stuff...

Commodore USA just buying the name to resell existing PC motherboards. They wouldn't even release some Amiga in a Joystick. That would still be some old stuff, but a true new product.

And I don't see that changing...

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Dandy 
Re: AMIGA Name bought by Commodore!
Posted on 8-Sep-2010 13:04:16
#520 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@elatour

Quote:

elatour wrote:
@DAX

...
perhaps CBM USA will become the first to release an Amiga branded laptop,
...



I don't thinkl so, as they only have the license to brand the AIOs "Amiga". At least BigBentheAussie said so.

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