Poster | Thread |
DAX
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 17-Mar-2011 15:05:37
| | [ #41 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Sep-2009 Posts: 2790
From: Italy | | |
|
| @pavlor Yeah but those were'n even a minority, in comparison, if I start listing the 2D games made between those years it would take me a month if i type 24/7 (we're talking thousands)
By the way, wasn't Amiga CD32 equipped with Akiko, a chip that supposedly had to help with chunky graphics? Was it ever used?
_________________ SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2 AmigaCD 32 |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
HenryCase
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 17-Mar-2011 15:18:05
| | [ #42 ] |
|
|
|
Cult Member |
Joined: 12-Nov-2007 Posts: 728
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @DAX
Quote:
DAX wrote: By the way, wasn't Amiga CD32 equipped with Akiko, a chip that supposedly had to help with chunky graphics? Was it ever used?
|
The only two games I know of that are meant to have used Akiko on the CD32 are Wing Commander and Microcosm. |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
pavlor
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 17-Mar-2011 15:20:05
| | [ #43 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9578
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @DAX
Quote:
Yeah but those were'n even a minority, in comparison, if I start listing the 2D games made between those years it would take me a month if i type 24/7 (we're talking thousands) |
These were games that created new era of computer games - it would be impossible to compete with PC (or PSX) without 3D games.
Quote:
By the way, wasn't Amiga CD32 equipped with Akiko, a chip that supposedly had to help with chunky graphics? Was it ever used? |
Rarely. I think only Frontier and Wing Commander can use Akiko. Some Doom ports also support Akiko (eg. DoomAttack) - speed increase is significant:
DoomAttack A1200 030/50Mhz 32Mb (Optimised 020 C2P) - 8481 realtics (8.8 fps) Amiga CD32 68020/14Mhz 8Mb (Optimised 020 C2P) - 18971 realtics (3.9 fps) Amiga CD32 68020/14Mhz 8Mb (Optimised Akiko C2P) - 12872 realtics (5.8 fps)
Source: Cammy in The Doom Benchmark thread (post 42) |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
pavlor
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 17-Mar-2011 15:20:50
| | [ #44 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9578
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @HenryCase
Now we know three. Last edited by pavlor on 17-Mar-2011 at 03:21 PM.
|
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
DAX
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 17-Mar-2011 15:21:59
| | [ #45 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Sep-2009 Posts: 2790
From: Italy | | |
|
| @HenryCase I have Microcosm (fantastic box by the way ), performance wise it is a nice show-off title (all FMV stuff but really impressive compared to FMV on many other systems).
So games like Alien Breed 3D did NOT use it in the end?
_________________ SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2 AmigaCD 32 |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
BigD
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 17-Mar-2011 23:24:33
| | [ #46 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7307
From: UK | | |
|
| @pavlor
Quote:
Rarely. I think only Frontier and Wing Commander can use Akiko. Some Doom ports also support Akiko (eg. DoomAttack) - speed increase is significant: |
Wing Commander should have used the Akiko but Nick Pelling (quite a renowned programmer) got some of the code wrong and in practise it didn't work! The 256 colour version was not up to speed until the 030 HD version was ported._________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
hotrod
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 8:49:09
| | [ #47 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Mar-2003 Posts: 2993
From: Stockholm, Sweden | | |
|
| @Crumb
You're right, I remember a relative ex-amiga user not liking the new Amiga since he had been told that the chipmem was 16-bit only and slow so he bought a 486 computer with a SVGA ISA card. Later he told me that it was really slow at hight resolutions with many colours not being more usable than HAM-8.
Also it was written in magazines that games like Zool was a lot smoother on an A1200 compared to an A500 and compared to the PC-version it was a lot better which was true for many games.
AGA was good for low-res games in the style of many games available for SNES for example. |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
fishy_fis
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 8:54:06
| | [ #48 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 29-Mar-2004 Posts: 2156
From: Australia | | |
|
| In my humble opinion CD32 suffered, as did all AGA machine by trying to compete with PC's of the time. Rather than making games to thier strengths most software developed for them that werent basically ocs/ecs/68000 software was attempts at trying to mimic what was popular elsewhere, which lead to average results at best due a lack of chunky type modes. I'd much rather have seen Games utilising the strengths of AGA. Sure, it was never cutting edge stuff, but to this day there's still pretty much no software that shows what AGA is capable of in the way things like Shadow Of The Beast, Elfmania, etc. show what can be done with OCS/ECS. This does double for AGA machines with at least fast ram. |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
DAX
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 10:37:23
| | [ #49 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Sep-2009 Posts: 2790
From: Italy | | |
|
| @pavlor Quote:
These were games that created new era of computer games - it would be impossible to compete with PC (or PSX) without 3D games. |
Being first in with FPS is different than world-wide acceptance and overall sales. We're talking consoles here (read thread topic) and you have to wait for 1997 for 3D to take completely over (worldwide) as a widely accepted mainstream dominator (specially in Europe where the Nintendo 64 came out in march that year but France, where they had to wait till September), a year where Commodore should have launched a fully 3D capable successor to the CD32, and not fight against the Japanese using the latter (if they didn't go bankrupt that is ). Between 1992 and 1996 we have a peak in 2D games revenues for consoles and arcade games, and then descending figures.
3D was growing, but it started smaller (number wise) compared to 2D and it took a few years only to get on par. Even after it surpassed 2D, the latter kept his audience for a while (on 32-Bit systems) but at that point you are (were) supposed to launch a CD64 or something (CD64?? - -)Last edited by DAX on 18-Mar-2011 at 10:42 AM.
_________________ SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2 AmigaCD 32 |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Arko
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 12:18:19
| | [ #50 ] |
|
|
|
Super Member |
Joined: 17-Jan-2007 Posts: 1989
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @DAX
Quote:
DAX wrote:
We're talking consoles here (read thread topic) and you have to wait for 1997 for 3D to
|
Tomb Raider (3D) was pubished for the Sega Saturn 1996, 4 weeks before it was available on PC and Playstation. Screenshots: http://www.mobygames.com/game/sega-saturn/tomb-raider/screenshots
Tomb Raider wasn't limited to crude 21/2 dimensions anymore and it really had good athmosphere it was superior to Wolfenstein-3D or Gloom. An Amiga, even with Z3 GFX and 060 card, could not compete with it and the CD32 was still sold with a low performance CPU.Last edited by Arko on 18-Mar-2011 at 12:21 PM.
_________________ AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.
I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28): http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0 |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
DAX
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 13:39:32
| | [ #51 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Sep-2009 Posts: 2790
From: Italy | | |
|
| @Arko Yes, and I could name a few others too, but as I said it was an evolving situation that pointed toward 3D. CD32 could establish itself as the Best 2D machine "early on", then of course I completely agree that it would've struggled in the latter part of its life cycle (against emerging mainstream popularity of 3D), but the idea was to release a successor shortly after (with big hype created before hand).
However, no one can argue with the fact that actually, the CD32 did NOT have such a stellar launch line-up. All the best developers had left and even Lucas Arts didn't publish her successful 2D adventures.
If you try to sell a machine in 1992 or 1993, and you don't have the killer games to go with it, no wonder nobody (but me ) bought it!
P.S "Then why did you?" one might ask, I was a fan of Amiga games and developers, and having a 040 A2000+24Bit RTG I thought to get the console to play AGA games. Believe it or not I enjoyed the system a lot, Simon the Sorcerer, Alien Breed Tower Assault, Beneath a Steel Sky with full speech, SuperStarDust, fond memories _________________ SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2 AmigaCD 32 |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Bladerunner
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 14:11:38
| | [ #52 ] |
|
|
|
Member |
Joined: 13-Jun-2004 Posts: 46
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @DAX
Quote:
CD32 could establish itself as the Best 2D machine "early on" |
Nope, it could not. As I mentioned earlier, there where allready better alternatives out there. Atarí Jaguar, 3DO, both where far superior compared to the CD32. (And both failed misserably btw.) The Jaguar for example was able to display true color at full ntsc resolution and scrolling was still smooth. Try the same with HAM 8.....
Also you shouldn' t forget, that Nintendo and even Sega hat allready a huge market share when it comes to 2D consoles. While the CD32 might have been a tad better then those machines, it simply didn't offer enough innovation. Last edited by Bladerunner on 18-Mar-2011 at 02:19 PM.
|
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
DAX
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 14:38:49
| | [ #53 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 30-Sep-2009 Posts: 2790
From: Italy | | |
|
| @Bladerunner The 3DO was crap at 2D by admission of RJ Mical himself, couldn't handle more than a single background. Jaguar didn't have enough memory to use large true color bitmaps (a single one would fill it up quickly) moreover a good pixel artist can create top of the line 2D with no more than 64 colors, 256 are considered overkill.
Don't take my word for it sign up and ask here:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/default.asp
It is the home of the world best pixel artists.
Just to make an example this piece uses 38 colors:
http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/59175.htm
Finally if you had the best western developers doing games exclusively for you, you could've challenged anyone in the 2D arena, from LucasArts to Thalion, to Team17, Reflections, DMA design, and many more. (just didn't happen sadly). Last edited by DAX on 18-Mar-2011 at 02:40 PM.
_________________ SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4 Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2 AmigaCD 32 |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Amiga_3k
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 19:06:07
| | [ #54 ] |
|
|
|
Cult Member |
Joined: 17-Jun-2006 Posts: 833
From: Ohrid, Macedonia | | |
|
| How was the 3D simulation handled in the AGA version of Oldtimer / Motor City [MaxDesign]?
edit: Didn't realize Oldtimer was the German name of the game. Last edited by Amiga_3k on 18-Mar-2011 at 07:07 PM.
_________________ Back home... |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Tomas
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 19:22:56
| | [ #55 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 25-Jul-2003 Posts: 4286
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @trans
Quote:
trans wrote: @opi
"Weak Graphics"? Err. dude you obviously were around then. |
It came out at a time when pc were getting soundcards, cdrom and vga graphics by default. I believe even pcs at that time had 4meg of ram as standard, while the a1200 came out with only 2meg chip ram.
|
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
pavlor
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 19:28:12
| | [ #56 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9578
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @DAX
Quote:
The 3DO was crap at 2D by admission of RJ Mical himself, couldn't handle more than a single background. |
I don´t think your idea is based on anything but dreams. CD32 was nice console, however undepowered to really compete (no hi colour modes except HAM, only basic support for 3D - Akiko). CD32 has (had) only one advantage over Jaguar - CD-ROM drive. |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
pavlor
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 19:33:07
| | [ #57 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9578
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @Tomas
Quote:
I believe even pcs at that time had 4meg of ram as standard, while the a1200 came out with only 2meg chip ram. |
In 1992 most PCs in the class 750-1000 USD used only 2 MB RAM - A1200 was fully competiteve at that time. 4 MB RAM were more common around 1993/1994.
Quote:
It came out at a time when pc were getting soundcards, cdrom and vga graphics by default. |
I have here price lists from that time: 1992 (PC 750-1000 USD) VGA - yes soundcard - not uncommon (many PCs were still sold without soundcard) CD-ROM - no
|
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Amiga_3k
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 20:19:54
| | [ #58 ] |
|
|
|
Cult Member |
Joined: 17-Jun-2006 Posts: 833
From: Ohrid, Macedonia | | |
|
| @pavlor
And most probably that's without mouse also? _________________ Back home... |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
pavlor
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 20:38:22
| | [ #59 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Jul-2005 Posts: 9578
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @Amiga_3k
Quote:
And most probably that's without mouse also? |
Yes, mouse was not neccessary part of low end configurations. |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Arko
| |
Re: CD32 - a case against modern capitalism Posted on 18-Mar-2011 21:21:10
| | [ #60 ] |
|
|
|
Super Member |
Joined: 17-Jan-2007 Posts: 1989
From: Unknown | | |
|
| @pavlor
Quote:
pavlor wrote:
In 1992 most PCs in the class 750-1000 USD used only 2 MB RAM - A1200 was fully competiteve at that time. 4 MB RAM were more common around 1993/1994.
|
And in 1993/1994 the A1200 had hmm it still had 2MB, 2MB of chipram that acted like a brake when 8 bit palette was used.
_________________ AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.
I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28): http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0 |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|