WARNING: users who will think that every critic are trolling, please, skip it. Thread will have some honesty in mind. Topic mostly for programmers and advanced users. Also for users who can't understand that critic its a way for change bad thinks on good ones, better to skip topic.

So, after we have update3 reliased, and users play with it and discuss their new and old problems, i was in interest to know what update3 is bring to us. In the update3 archive we have such kind of "change-log" (if it can be called like this):

Quote:

Updated Installation Utility program; Updated PATA and SATA drivers; Improved DOS stability and speed; Fixed Amiga shared object issues; Support for AmigaOne keyboards including boing key swap feature; Set keymap_swapaltamiga to "on" in your firmware to enable; Updated Intuition and GUI components; New consistent full release string including update number; Updated AmiSSL certificates; Updated USB stack with USB 2.0 (EHCI) support; Improved Sam460ex support including sound driver; I2C support for the Sam440ep and Sam460ex platforms; Updated and improved Warp3D support; Faster 2D graphics support; Various kernel fixes for increased stability; Updated MUI with many new features to make porting MUI 4.0 based applications simpler; Improved notifications support.

Cleary, its not change-log, but just plain list of minimal information about areas on which work was done. Of course, its very understanable, that any sane user want to know exactly what was changed and where, and what exactly was updated and where.

I make a topic on hyperion's forum there, where i have no answers at all, only just one of betatesters fear to read real questions and ask for thread locking, and our team-leader show some of his ego with words "i do not want = everyone in os4team do not want" and then lock the thread, with words "thanks for suggestions, we will think about" (we all know what such answers means :) )

In brief, In the thread, i ask why aos4 not have any normal changelog (i even not say "like on morphos for example, or better") , i even point out how good done change-log on MUI by Thore, but other components are fully and totally unclear and done for plain dumbs.

Now we see, how users speculate about speed increase in the 2D now, while no one understand from what that increasing come, for what machines, in which components and so on. One think its HW accelerated cairo (but, in archive i not see anything cairo related), other ones think that its only SAMs related speedup and its not related to Peg2/A1. All what we have:

Quote:

Faster 2D graphics support;

What did it mean ? For what machines ? For SAMs (Maxx works before on DMA related changes in the rtg.library or kind) ? For all machines ? If for SAMs only, it is DMA related changes only ? No ? If it for all machines, then what was changed ? ATIRadeon.chip ? Any kind of benchnmarks beetwen update2 and update3 ? Why aos4 developers not wrtie detailed info about that important changes, so everyone will just _know_ , without speculation ?

For the others, i will just copy+paste from hyperion's forum:

-------------
Quote:

Updated Installation Utility program;

What exactly updated ? Its just bug-fixed or something new added ? If fixed, then which bugs exactly, if something new added, then what ?

Quote:

Updated PATA and SATA drivers;

How they updated ? Bug-fixing or new features? Which ones ? Did they works now faster or slower, better or worse ? Did they all works fully as driver should, with all that fast speed tricks, dmas or whatever else ? Was there added something very good lately beetwen update2 and update3 ?

Quote:

Fixed Amiga shared object issues;

Which issues exactly ?

Quote:

Updated Intuition and GUI components;

What exactly was updated, and which gui components ?

Quote:

New consistent full release string including update number;

What did it mean, and how we can use it , and how good or bad its for end users ?

Quote:

Updated and improved Warp3D support;

What exactly was fixed and what exactly was impoved ? I know only that Hans improve out-of-memory corruption, and that Karlos add some fixes, but nothing detailed and nothing more about other fixes and updates.

Quote:

Faster 2D graphics support;

I say about it before, but once again: How it done ? For what machines ? I know that only for sam series Maxx add DMA support for rtg.library, but not for pegasos2 / a1 and others ? Or did dma works for all machines now ? Or did faster 2d graphics support mean something else, like better WritePixelArray() itself, or some other functions of P96 ? Or radeon.chip ? What ? Where ? How ?

Quote:

Various kernel fixes for increased stability;

That is very interesting: what was fixed exactly. Was elf.library.kmod (let's think that its' kernel related) fixed in terms of bug which i report before, and was all fixed in terms of bugs which Alfkil report ? I know you will say "which bugs?" , but the same i say "how can i check my bugs was they fixed or not, if we have no detailed change-log".

Quote:

Updated MUI with many new features to make porting MUI 4.0 based applications simpler;

Knowing how much work Thore spend on it, and how much was added, its all can't be so simplified. Its all was fixed a lot, hundreds of bugs was fixed, tons of new features was added, and its all not only about porting, but just in general. Good that in case with mui, we have what we need : real change_log with all the information we need.

Quote:

Improved notifications support.

How it was impoved ? In which areas ? Just bug-fixing or what ?
---------

Of course, it can be only i who think that normal change-logs are "must to have". Even just something like on morphos, and all the other os4 advanced users/programmers do not want to know anything detailed, but .. but how it possible to know, what new you can use, how you can use it, what was fixed (so you can test if it was fixed or not, so you can report one more time about unfixed bugs, or saying that they was fixed).

From my imho, its just one more minus for aos4, to not have normal change-log, to make happy not just plain casual users , but also advanced ones, programmers and users who are not beta-testers, but can do their testing work heavy and help in end to have os4 bugs-less.

In end, to summorise, topic have 2 questions in mind:

1. Ritorical one : "why hyperion not put normal change-logs, they not understand how helpfull is it on current stage?". I know the answer, the answer "we do not want just because". But i fail to see logic here , really.

2. Real one: All that questions about what and where exactly was changed/updated in the all the areas which i quote. If anyone can add something (preffered those aos4 developers who works on that areas of course), that will be good as well. I think Maxx. Hans, TonyW, Karlos can add there something , and share their opinions about why normal and detailied change-logs do not includes with updates and os releases.

Last edited by kas1e on 10-Sep-2011 at 05:55 PM.

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@kas1e

I think last reply from ssolie in the thread you linked was something like:

"Thank you for the suggestion. It will be considered for next time."

@pavlor
And what ? Almost the same what i say.

Anyway, i think topic not for you, because:

1. You not have os4 and you not os4 user (thanks, good work, keep it up).
2. You have nothing to say , and just dunno for what reassons post exactly words , which mean the same in end.
3. You not 3d party developer as well, so , there is nothing again by which you can help, and you not os4 developer, so you can't answer on the questions as well.

Last edited by kas1e on 10-Sep-2011 at 06:00 PM.

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@kas1e

Quote:

Faster 2D graphics support

It meant the driver rejects low res modes.

Quote:

Updated PATA and SATA drivers;

It meant the IDE driver no longer works on an SE.

Quote:

Updated and improved Warp3D support;

It meant Shogo almost works on a Sam.

Quote:

Improved notifications support.

It meant the annoying printer bug is still there because developeres aren't annoyed by it.

Quote:

Updated USB stack with USB 2.0 (EHCI) support;

It meant to me that I can't use my external USB2 card anymore because this new unstable driver doesn't like it.

Okay just a bit sarcastic there but that's my experience.

Last edited by Hypex on 10-Sep-2011 at 06:08 PM.

@Hypex

:))

Quote:

Okay just a bit sarcastic there but that's my experience

At least is start to discuss the thinks (maybe they will be improved after all). For now all what we can, its just blindly testing our stuff, and found what start to not works, what in oppoiste start to works, and trying to understand why, except that we just can read change-log (if it will be present), and know in which area we can do testing/checking/bug-reporting.

Btw, that:

--It meant the driver rejects low res modes.
--It meant the IDE driver no longer works on an SE.
--It meant to me that I can't use my external USB2 card anymore because this new unstable driver doesn't like it.

Pretty hardcore problems should to say. Something new added : something just stop working. Expectually rejecting low-res modes (did it happens on all machines?) and no working devices with new usb drivers while they works before with update2, are hardcore too.

Last edited by kas1e on 10-Sep-2011 at 06:10 PM.

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@kas1e

Thy kindness freezes.


I hope this mood of yours will be better another day.

@pavlor

Quote:

I hope this mood of yours will be better another day.

I fine enough already, just want to discuss topic normally, without too much offtopic, and without users who will not in interest to digin in topic deeply.

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@kas1e

beg your pardon, me speaking as a former os4 user and known troll, cheer up, staying on os4 you will have to live with it. but as it is your choice dont let them disencourage you!

@kas1e

While i agree with the content of your message i will consider totally useless open a thread like this on Amigaworld, we already opened one on the Hyperion forum, if they close it we can't do so mutch, and this kind of thread will never help our approach, eventually can be usefull only for the usual trolls our there, but i'm sure at 100% that this isn't the spirit that has prompted you to open this thread ...

Aniway ...

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@samo79

or maybe to get them to wakeup and see what the users/buyers really want/need. Im with kas1e about the morphos giving users more info on what is new. I dont really know anything whats new except that we have usb2 drivers which i tried and works. The rest is only... hmm ok thats updated but what exactly. Doesnt need a changelog that coders are interested in but at least more info then now. The way MOS gives info is enough.

@thread

You cannot have a detailed report because then everyone will know how much work was actually done.

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@samo79
Quote:

i will consider totally useless open a thread like this on Amigaworld,

While first question about "why they not put detailed change log" can be useless to discuss, second question about what exactly changed/updated are actual, and will make sense if any of the os4 developers who works on os4 will write details here.

Or how we can know what was fixed/changed if no change-logs in updates, and no answers from developrs ? Blind testing and time wasting ?

@asymetrix
Quote:

You cannot have a detailed report because then everyone will know how much work was actually done.

That no problems, we already know that everything develops slow, and there will be no surprises in change-logs. But, having it will answer on any possible questions about what exactly was done/fixed/changed/updated.

@wawa
Quote:

beg your pardon, me speaking as a former os4 user and known troll, cheer up, staying on os4 you will have to live with it. but as it is your choice dont let them disencourage you!

When AROS will reach level of aos4 (or better morphos), with all that mui/shmui , reaction, sobjes, gdbs, less buggy and less crashy, with all that progs like sabre/wookie/amirc/muiowb/dvplayers/tunents/amigaamps and so on, then, i will swith to AROS for sure :)

Last edited by kas1e on 11-Sep-2011 at 07:57 AM.

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@kas1e

and i will return to os4 when it runs stable on affordable hardware. lol. seriously, you would have switched to mos long ago, if it was so.
thing is, the users have no influence, and thread like this (most likely) isnt going to change anything as with any other decission discussed by community. all you can do is just remain steady what you do and accept the handicaps. errmm. you know for yourself, dont you?

@wawa

Quote:

and i will return to os4 when it runs stable on affordable hardware. lol. seriously, you would have switched to mos long ago, if it was so. thing is, the users have no influence, and thread like this (most likely) isnt going to change anything as with any other decission discussed by community. all you can do is just remain steady what you do and accept the handicaps. errmm. you know for yourself, dont you?

In case with aos4, our (users) moaning make a sense when users moan a lot. Like for example how it was with blog, and then with forum. If not users, then that all never happens. The same about topic which i trying to bring here: more detailed info about changes and updates. Not so necessary full change-log from bugzilla (but that will be good), but even something as done on morphos. We know that all os4 devels still read aw.net, and so, when many users will say the same stuff more and more, it can change thinks , like as i say it was done with forums and blogs. And like for example it was done few years ago, when version for peg2 was released with slow ide drivers and after moaning of users it was fupdated and fixed.

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@kas1e
im holding thumbs 4 u.

@kas1e

There are dozens of beta testers. That isn't exactly doing nothing for users.

A question regarding the supposed topic of this thread: people are reporting big speed increases. What would cause this? New IDE driver? USB 2? Improved video driver?

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@thinkchip

Quote:

A question regarding the supposed topic of this thread: people are reporting big speed increases. What would cause this? New IDE driver? USB 2? Improved video driver?

on the SAM at least there have been some nice kernel improvements. between these, updated video drivers, intuition fixes and other minor improvements here and there, it adds up quite nicely.

for example, maxing out the graphics settings on capehill's quake2 port prior to the update yielded 18.3 fps on the timed demo. after the update i got 21.7 fps. that's still not exactly brilliant, but a significant improvement. 2D graphics seems to have achieved an even greater boost, although that's subjective; SDL-based games, DVplayer, and scrolling in most applications appear noticeably more fluid.

i would prefer to see a more in-depth change log as a user, just because i'm interested. i would expect that developers will have all of the information they require once an updated SDK is posted, the autodocs updates reflecting any salient points needing attention. if you'd like, i can bring this up at amiwest in october.

according to steven solie he is considering this request for future releases.

-- eliyahu

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@thinkchip

Quote:

There are dozens of beta testers. That isn't exactly doing nothing for users.

Of course they do their testings, but i saying about putting detailed readmes (or change-logs from bugzilla), and that mostly work for developers, not for beta testers.

Quote:

A question regarding the supposed topic of this thread: people are reporting big speed increases.

I have only speed descreasing on my peg2: booting are slower pretty visibly. But i think that because of that new usb2 driver (through, of course, i start to compare with morphos more and more, morphos with all that usb2 and stuff loads faster than update2, but now, it loads _much_ faster than update3, dunno why os4 devs not make it the same as on mos).

As for others, i have already few problems related to USB as well:

1. When i run some programm, and trying to do some stuff which i do usually, echi driver crashes (while i not use usb at all at this moment).

2. I just plug off my usb pen from peg2 when os4u3 loads, and i have good-old red-window , just like on classic machines.

Saying "people reporting big speed increasing", its a bit too simply. Peoples report speed increasing with SAMs (and that expected, because Maxx add dma support for sam's as i understand), and some scrolling speedup in RA-OWB. But in others, peoples also report tons of problems with usb2.0 (holy , after all those years is still buggy! why not use posedeon?) and the most real problem is:

how developers think we (users) should to know what was changed/fixed ?

Quote:

What would cause this? New IDE driver? USB 2? Improved video driver?

New IDE driver for what machine ? SAM ? Peg2 ? A1 ? Classic ? Which improved video driver ? For what machines ? P96 / Rtg or what ?

Detailed change log _ARE MUST_ if they (os4 devs) want to make their os better for end users. Something like morphos devs do are quite ok, but of course, will be cool if it will be better, like plain change log for dumbs, advanced-detailed change log, and copy+paste from bugzilla (ideally). , but kind of morphos one are fine too.

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@kas1e

For now I need more or less 44 seconds to complete the boot, from the time i press the ON button on my Case at the first initial Workbench screen (when the audio jingle starts)

This with the standard startup-sequence, this will load all the stuff even if certain components are not used (some drivers and so on)

About speed in general: 3D here seems quite the same as performance altrough i don't have any graphical corruptions anymore, on UFO AI (and probably also in Nexuiz but i need to test this game)

Conversely in 2D i have some good speedup, GfxBench shown better perfomance, i think all of this is related to the new RTG.library updated by Max but also other graphics libs was updated so i'm not sure witch one is involved on the 2D speedup

http://amiga.ikirsector.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=15845&p=199035&hilit=gfxbench2d#p199035

While i get worse result using RageMem (see it on the same page) altrough installing later the Sam_Setup 1.2 on WBStartup i reach the same old results, a bit worse again but quite similar

Update 2 + Sam_Setup
VIDEO BUS
READ: 41 MB/Sec
WRITE: 63 MB/Sec

Update 3 + Sam_Setup
VIDEO BUS
READ: 39 MB/Sec
WRITE: 58 MB/Sec

On the real use i note some improvement in Quake 3 intropage (no more freeze and the mouse will move smooth), Aquaria (again the mouse usage on the intro it's faster now)

I get noticiable improve on Virtual Jaguar emulator, and in general the speed of the Workbench is better, less time to open a "full of files" window, less time to open the content of a CD and so on.

Last edited by samo79 on 11-Sep-2011 at 07:34 PM.
Last edited by samo79 on 11-Sep-2011 at 07:31 PM.
Last edited by samo79 on 11-Sep-2011 at 07:30 PM.

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Last edited by MickJT on 11-Sep-2011 at 08:18 PM.