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Toaks 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 6:39:32
#21 ]
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@Fab

Impressive!

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Birbo 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 6:56:52
#22 ]
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Joined: 5-Apr-2007
Posts: 515
From: Zurich, Switzerland

As i understand, the change to ARM would be the better solution - because of the RISC-Based architecture... (like PPC)

Or it's not like that?

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KimmoK 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 8:04:14
#23 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5057
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Chock

Unless MOS team is changing the vocabulary, quark is the kernel and qbox is the "native" environment for it's applications, while ABox is only meant for AmigaOS SW. So... ABox is to be sandboxed after 3.0 and MOS team will start to work with the true MOS, porting OS components from ABox to QBox. GREAT!
MOS that runs it's apps "natively" in QBox is like the pipedream of AOS5.

IMHO, MOS team should have started the Q development already ten years ago and leave AmigaOS compatibility & ABox to Hyperion to play with. But I guess thay needed to show how good AOS4 they would/could have done...


And ... perhaps MOS team knows better, but so far it seems to me that PPC is ok for desktop if the OS can do SMP.

... + now it seems almost 100% sure that MOS will not run on any new PPC HW.



UPDATE: as it seems my post can look a bit negative ...

1) I've waited the QBox development to start for ten years. Originally I was very disappointed that everything runs in ABox. So, it's great development that the start of QBox work is in the horizon.

2) If the R&D resources would have spent separately (hyperion handling the 3.x api and MOS doing the NG api (SMP,MP,etc) we might have pretty awesome OS today (the true AOS5).

3) I like PPC over the x86. PPC is not dead yet. I just wish we do the SMP & 64 bit thing on multicore PPCs before giving up on PPC.

Anyway, nice for MOS overall, even though it did not go myway.

Last edited by KimmoK on 14-Nov-2011 at 01:34 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 14-Nov-2011 at 11:33 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 14-Nov-2011 at 08:31 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 14-Nov-2011 at 08:06 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 14-Nov-2011 at 08:05 AM.

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Arko 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 9:16:01
#24 ]
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Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Birbo

Quote:

Birbo wrote:
As i understand, the change to ARM would be the better solution - because of the RISC-Based architecture... (like PPC)

Or it's not like that?


No, it's not like that. 68k = CISC, PPC = RISC ... no one cares !

But the byte ordering is important, 68k and PPC have the same byte ordering and some ARMs have it too. If you want to have compatibillity to 68k systems you need the same byte ordering. Without this you can have 68k programs only in a closed UAE like box.

UAE might have a high compatibillity for programs accessing the chips directly, but it doesn't allow 68k programms the usage of PPC libraries or vice versa.

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Leo 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 10:19:26
#25 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1562
From: Unknown

I guess big/little endian wouldn't matter if we were moving away from current A/Box to QBox since we would lose compatibility anyway. The only reason it matters is for keeping some compatibility with antic software...

Last edited by Leo on 14-Nov-2011 at 10:24 AM.

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kas1e 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 10:24:13
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3185
From: Russia

Quote:

So yes indeed, within a few years, we will change the architecture.


That right step for sure. Just no need to fear to change amigaos api radically after that, to have MP and all the stuff, and after 5 years morphos can be one more intersting OS which will have future. Not many is remember all those ancient 68k apps, while everyone already use native ones, so should be not really problematic to change radically apis.

Last edited by kas1e on 14-Nov-2011 at 10:49 AM.
Last edited by kas1e on 14-Nov-2011 at 10:26 AM.

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Leo 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 10:25:58
#27 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1562
From: Unknown

Quote:

Quote:

So yes indeed, within a few years, we will change the architecture.

That right step for sure.

Question is: why "within a few years" ? They keep on repeating it will take a long time. So why wait another few years ?

Last edited by Leo on 14-Nov-2011 at 10:27 AM.

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kas1e 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 10:28:03
#28 ]
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Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3185
From: Russia

@Leo

Quote:

Question is: why "within a few years" ? They keep on repeating it will take a long time. So why waiting another few years ?


Dunno. As for me, all of features-work should be just frozen right now, and everything going to the new architecture right now, without any kind of waiting. But its closed source os, and all up to the team, not to the users :) Dunno why ever bother with all that macintoshes, if the plans already to change architecture. Wasting of time (years) to something which noone will use after that (because they will use x86 of course, if mos will be on it).

Last edited by kas1e on 14-Nov-2011 at 10:33 AM.

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Crumb 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 10:51:41
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@kas1e

You can write portable code without the need of switching architecture right now. Just like you can write code for AROS m68k/ARM/x86 that compiles and runs without problems on x86-64.

I prefer having support for G5 and then switching architecture. Writting and improving a few drivers for G5 will be mostly related to drivers and wouldn't take much resources as long as the code is written in a portable way.

I still find interesting to run old m68k software, others may not, those can run AROS right now.

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kas1e 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 10:59:06
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3185
From: Russia

@Crumb

Quote:

I still find interesting to run old m68k software,


you can run it via uae, and on fast cpu that will have no problems at all. Just saying "i need 68k support" its mean that your prefered os will never evolve to something modern, which can attract new users and devs.

Quote:

others may not, those can run AROS right now.


As i see, on AROS there is ppls who want 68k support the same, through, i also found it as stop-factor for progress.

Anyway, soon or later 68k support will dropped and in os4, and on morphos and everything will be sandboxed (via uae or dunno how). If of course time and resources will allow that :)

Last edited by kas1e on 14-Nov-2011 at 11:00 AM.

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Crumb 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 11:03:34
#31 ]
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Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@kas1e

We have different viewpoints: I don't find any problem finding suitable hardware to run MorphOS and being able to run m68k software is a nice plus for me. Since you are an OS4 user perhaps you think there's lack of hardware on MOS just like on OS4 but you can find nice powermacs at 1.25Ghz for less than 90 so I'm not worried at all.

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kas1e 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 11:16:16
#32 ]
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Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3185
From: Russia

@Crumb

Quote:

Since you are an OS4 user perhaps you think there's lack of hardware on MOS just like on OS4


I looks like someone who not know situation with morphos HW ?:) And i currently on AROS, so there is no problems with HW.

I just talking that support of 68k and worring about it like something "must to have absolutly", its something which stop progress. Yes, can be good pluse, yes, nice to have for someone, but what is more necessary its have powerfull os with MP and stuff, and on fast HW. By fast hw i not mean 1ghz or 1.25, or 1.5ghz, i mean 3ghz, very cheap and new hw, and so on. There is P-UAE after all, which can be integrated normally. so everything will works, and for system will be even easy to detect "if that 68k - run over uae".

Anyway, good that mos-team already have plans to swith to it, just a bit sad that it will take a lot of time.

Last edited by kas1e on 14-Nov-2011 at 11:18 AM.

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Jupp3 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 12:09:05
#33 ]
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Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1206
From: Unknown

@kas1e

Quote:
Anyway, soon or later 68k support will dropped and in os4, and on morphos and everything will be sandboxed (via uae or dunno how). If of course time and resources will allow that :)

I wouldn't call sandboxing "dropping". MacOS X did something like that for MacOS9 support, and when they eventually dropped the sandbox, THAT was the "drop".

Although I don't know if there's any reason on OS4/MorphOS to drop the sandbox. OSX can do it, as there are enough people to "rewrite everything" to new OS. When that was mostly done, they could drop the legacy.

Last edited by Jupp3 on 14-Nov-2011 at 12:09 PM.

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Crumb 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 12:13:52
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2208
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@kas1e

Quote:
I looks like someone who not know situation with morphos HW ?:) And i currently on AROS, so there is no problems with HW.


You still thinking like an OS4 user in some ways (although I know you are way more open minded than the average os4 user). There's no lack of hardware with MorphOS.

Quote:
I just talking that support of 68k and worring about it like something "must to have absolutly",


It hasn't and it doesn't prevent a port to 64bits. But as long as it doesn't have to go it doesn't hurt to have it.

Quote:
what is more necessary its have powerfull os with MP and stuff, and on fast HW.


I prefer enjoying my system right now instead of waiting for pipedreams. As I say, I'm practical and I prefer enjoying PowerPC systems right now (powerpc g5 runs up to 2.7ghz, there are cheap quad core G5 systems out there...) and avoid waiting. In the meantime MorphOS team can adapt the OS components to work with 64bit systems, can add multicpu support to QBox and so on and the QBox can evolve independently of ABox.

When drivers are defined in QBox a wrapper can be written for ABox so it uses a generic driver that uses QBox services.

I prefer to have an useable laptop right now capable of running m68k software instead of waiting 3 or 4 years for an x86 port. In 4 years many MorphOS users could get tired and leave if there wasn't development, and you can develop OS components that are portable to 64bit, you can define new functions in QBox, you can define new driver APIs and start to use these from ABox. The point of MorphOS boxes is being able to use ABox without compromising main OS. So you could even run entire ABox inside a PowerPC emulator if they developed a PowerPC->x86-64 JIT.

I'm not dreaming about other OS, MorphOS is the OS I love, and it's the OS I want to use right now. I don't plan waiting and looking screenshots like other Amiga users like to do. I want to use laptops in a few months and I don't have any interest in waiting 3 years for an x86 port that won't bring me any advantage because I can get all the MorphOS hardware I want because it's really cheap and performance of 2nd hand Apple computers is enough for me ATM (QuadG5 is nice for me ATM, I don't need 8 x86-64 cores right now)

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HenryCase 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 12:33:02
#35 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 688
From: Unknown

@KimmoK
Quote:

Unless MOS team is changing the vocabulary, quark is the kernel and qbox is the "native" environment for it's applications, while ABox is only meant for AmigaOS SW. So... ABox is to be sandboxed after 3.0 and MOS team will start to work with the true MOS, porting OS components from ABox to QBox. GREAT!
MOS that runs it's apps "natively" in QBox is like the pipedream of AOS5.

IMHO, MOS team should have started the Q development already ten years ago and leave AmigaOS compatibility & ABox to Hyperion to play with. But I guess thay needed to show how good AOS4 they would/could have done...


And ... perhaps MOS team knows better, but so far it seems to me that PPC is ok for desktop if the OS can do SMP.

... + now it seems almost 100% sure that MOS will not run on any new PPC HW.


It's comments like this that make me wish I didn't ask for a translation.

There is no need to bring Hyperion into this, and there were very good reasons for the MOS team focusing on ABox first, and you're projecting too far ahead in terms of the hardware plans.

Please put your prejudices to one side and take the news at face value. Thank you.

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wawa 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 12:59:30
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5727
From: Unknown

@kas1e

Quote:

As i see, on AROS there is ppls who want 68k support the same, through, i also found it as stop-factor for progress.


you have not been around to observe it but exactly since 68k support started to be seriously worked on last year aros started to gain ground. the overall activity increased, no question, and new 68k developers essentially contribute to improve the whole, not to mention it helps to improve performnce, fix bugs and incompatibilities, which caused aros to remain it its ghetto before. i dont dicuss it that 68k compatibility might become obstacle at some point and likely will be dropped or banned in a separate fork, but it isnt a case for now. quite the opposite.

and remember aros lack of (embedded) 68k compatibility was the reason for many to choose mos or os4 instead. the bridge between 68k and other supported architectures (x86 and x64 among them) may convince classic users like me to invest in aros. maybe even switch at some point.

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wawa 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 13:05:00
#37 ]
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Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5727
From: Unknown

@kas1e

and one more thing, living with aros you have to accept that this is democratic alike envirnoment. you have to respect others dedications. you have been accustomed to unquestionable dictatorship on os4, which you would be fine with if they would make right decissions along your opinions. this takes some time to relax. sorry, i dont want to sound as aros ideologist, im not even that involved, but then even standing a step aside i think im entiteled to this observations.

Last edited by wawa on 14-Nov-2011 at 01:05 PM.

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kas1e 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 13:06:34
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2004
Posts: 3185
From: Russia

@Crumb
Quote:

There's no lack of hardware with MorphOS.


There is lack of fast and good hardware for morphos. By fast i mean not 1.5ghz, but 3ghz. Morphos no have problems with hardware which not faster than 1.5ghz, and have limitations there and there. Of course it can be sound like "no problems with HW", but if you want to do something very heavy, raw-power are must, and, 1.5ghz are not enough.

@wawa
Quote:

may convince classic users like me to invest in aros. maybe even switch at some point.


Invest to classic version of aros ? And swith to classic version of aros ?

Quote:

and one more thing, living with aros you have to accept that this is democratic alike envirnoment. you have to respect others dedications. you have been accustomed to unquestionable dictatorship on os4, which you would be fine with if they would make right decissions along your opinions. this takes some time to relax. sorry, i dont want to sound as aros ideologist, im not even that involved, but then even standing a step aside i think im entiteled to this observations.


:))) Living with anything, i accept only what i want to accept. That it, sorry. Blah .. for what you bring all that politic crap at all ? disctatorships, democratic .. Now you will say something about communism and anarchy, right ?:)

Last edited by kas1e on 14-Nov-2011 at 01:24 PM.

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Toaks 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.0 at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 13:26:47
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 8034
From: amigaguru.com

@crumb

haha, nice attempt at trolling.

Last edited by Toaks on 14-Nov-2011 at 01:27 PM.

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scabit 
Re: Presentation of MorphOS 3.x at Alchemy
Posted on 14-Nov-2011 13:41:26
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2005
Posts: 1663
From: Satellite Beach, FL USA

@Drako

I don't see hardware compatibility with the AmigaOne MicroA1. Is there anything special involved in making that happen or would that be just minor "tweaks" to MOS to get it to work? If they did have it available for my hardware AND it wasn't too expensive, I would buy a copy and give it a try.
I'm not against supporting both OS4 and MOS...I just use OS4 right now and enjoy it very much. It would be interesting to do a side by side comparison on AmgaOne hardware.

Scott

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