@A1200

Quote:

A1200 wrote: @Franko It looks like the No camp has it. But will the referendum reflect the Amiga users? Be interesting to see!

Happily Amiga forums don't reflect the true feeling and position on Scottish independence...

We missed out last time round when people chickened out on this vote but the SNP has proven themselves as the most competent ruling party we have seen in Scotland for many a long year and this has persuaded more than enough folk here to vote for real independence this time...

The Conservatives have been finished in Scotland since the Thatcher era and now Labour has taken a back seat to the SNP. For the past few years in Scotland a new & exciting era has begun and will continue for a very long time to come...

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Wrong thread...

Last edited by Franko on 23-Mar-2012 at 11:42 AM.

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@AndyC

Andy you make some good points there, but many are ifs and maybes. When the oil is gone Scotland will be vulnerable financially and certainly won't be leading any industry - its a numbers game that even the UK as it stands is dreadfully outnumbered.

What I find sad is that the UK would be better as a whole, but instead of trying to campaign for better distribution of power and wealth - much of which progress has already been made, the "quick fix" is the independence route. There has been an apparent north-south devide in the UK for many years but many large businesses are now operating from the north of England (AND Scotland), and investment is already being made because of those influences.

Some businesses in Scotland already showing their cards:

Tunnocks

Michelle Mone

86% of Scottish firms wish to remain in the UK

Promise some tax breaks Mr Salmond, that will get them on your side - oh but be careful not to end up borrowing too much, and become another Greece/Spain/Ireland/Italy.

Good fun this isn't it? I think if Scotland do get independence I will leave the UK myself! If not we risk becoming a minor, low impact on the world stage island with nothing to offer. Any space over there in the USA? I always fancied living the American dream!

Quote:

AndyC wrote: @A1200 Scotland's potential is based on a number of things. - Oil, of which there is anything between 30-50 years left, based on the technology required to extract it. - Whiskey. Lots of money in this. - Agriculture (including Salmon exports) - Financial Services. Notwithstanding the failed Scottish Banks (which were run from the City in all fairness) there are life, pensions, fund management and other banking institutions headquartered and operating out of Scotland. This would remain the case after independence. - Emerging technologies. Such as carbon capture, offshore energy (wave and tidal) - we could lead the world in this. - Manufacturing. The opportunity to rebuild manufacturing capability (ship building bein one - International trade. There is talk of an international container port being built in my town in Fife to service the emerging Arctic trade route (the North West Passage) which has opened up due to global warming. Scotland is uniquely placed to exploit this. - Energy exports. There is talk of linking the Scottish grid up to Scandinavia. I believe it is already linked to Ireland. Scotland will have the capability to generate surplus energy supplies which can be traded throughout Europe and beyond. - Water exports. Goes without saying. Anyway, that's just a summary... plenty more besides I expect.

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@A1200

The thing is, the UK would be equally vulnerable when the oil runs out. The difference being that the money generated in the meantime would stay in Scotland and help to safeguard public services for future generations.

As to business in Scotland, Michelle Mone's statements a while back were met with universal derision, not least because she makes a number of wildly inaccurate assumptions about the likely tax regime in Scotland post-independence. This coming from someone who outsources fabrication of her products to India.

Political tendencies are relatively ingrained, and there will be cases of short-sighted bigotry (on both sides of the debate) which I'm sure is an influencing factor, particularly with the family owned Tunnocks.

"Poll finds vast majority of Scots businesses against independence" - from a sample of 90 companies. Hardly a comprehensive poll - from a unionist newspaper at that. I take it you read the comments?

For a bit of balance, have a look at this website:

Newsnet Scotland

Also, take today's news:

BBC News

Bear in mind this investment would offset the loss of all of Michelle Mone's and Tunnock's employees in Scotland. Also, despite his political position, I can't see Boyd Tunnock throwing his toys out of the pram and closing up shop - not least because in all likelihood, a large proportion of his staff will be voting for independence!

I'm not convinced the people of Scotland will vote for independence - as depressing as that might be. But I'll do what I can in the meantime to change as many minds as possible.

Cheers!

AndyC

Last edited by AndyC on 23-Mar-2012 at 09:04 PM.

@A1200

The oil factor doesn't wash as AndyC clearly explained...

If you believe a word Michelle Mone says, the next thing you'll be telling me is that CUSA are nice family friendly company who are doing everything for charity...

86% of Scottish firms on highly selective and biased poll...

Hope you find somewhere nice to stay in the USA as it's not a case of if but when...

Tunnocks owner may be a Unionist but happily the vast majority of his customers aren't and all those votes far outweigh his one...

Anyway not long now till I see my lifelong dream come true and you find a nice new home in America, so we've all got somthing nice to look forward too...

PS: As I'm time served Stone Mason as well as Carpenter, reckon I might be able to get myself a wee part time job out of all this when we rebuild Hadrians wall again...

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Rude!

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Nissan GTR '08

@A1200

To claim Westminister is a little too England centric is absolute nonense.
Anyone English living north of Watford will tell you that.
Their latest policy of having regional pay is a clear attack on everyone beyond the Watford Gap.

If the Scots get independance, then us English in the north should follow their example.

@Franko

I accept your point about what is meant when a Scot says he hates the English.
I can't see it as taking off a good rallying cry for us English northerners in our bid for self rule.

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@TiredofLife

My wife is English, from the North East in County Durham, and is in favour of Scottish Independence.

I've had many a chat with some of her family and friends (former miners, real working class, salt of the earth types ) and they share the same sentiment.

Granted it's hardly a representative sample, but these guys would be happier paying taxes into Edinburgh than Westminster.

It's a moot point though - the North East had a referendum a few years back for a regional assembly and voted against it. A lost opportunity:

Wikipedia article

As an aside, I read an article in the guardian a while back by comedian Stewart Lee in which he suggests that Scotland, by pursuing independence, is abandoning the fight against right wing conservatism. Like we have an obligation to stick around and try to stop the English from voting Conservative en-mass!

Well, he might have a point - as a means to an end, it's not a bad idea...

AndyC

@TiredofLife

Quote:

TiredofLife wrote: @Franko I accept your point about what is meant when a Scot says he hates the English. I can't see it as taking off a good rallying cry for us English northerners in our bid for self rule.

Simple ... just call em "Soft southern Shi ites" (if you catch my drift)...

Nothing to stop you folks in the north of the the land where the Engles live fighting for your own independence, just make sure you don't hide on our side of the wall when you fight them...

Course you do what I did last year and declare yourself as an independent nation and write to Downing Street and the Scottish Parliament too (in may case) stating so...

I never heard back from Mr Cameron or Mr Salmond, so I take it that means my declaration of independence was all hunky dorey and I now am the sole inhabitant of Frankoland (well me, plus about 40 squirrels, a dog and a half chewed Hamster)...

(Only thing I'm not sure of is, do I need a passport when I leave my garden path to nip down the shops for me Daily Record, Irn Bru & fags)...

Last edited by Franko on 24-Mar-2012 at 12:37 PM.

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@Franko

You're certifiable!

AndyC

@AndyC

If the referendum for the North East was anything like the one mooted for the North West, I can totally understand why it was rejected.

The powers for English assemblies were much less than other devolved areas and would cost an absolute fortune.
Basically, there was no point.

I'm not advocating an assembly for the north though, I reckon we should become totally independant.

@Franko

I'm happy to extend border priviledges between the newly created countries of North England and Frankoland.
Maybe we can come together on other issues such as defense and commerce.

Your phrase referrring to southerners is already in common usuage in the north and will be very popular as a rallying cry.

P.S. I assumed you were joking when discussed a possible need to hide behind some wall from the southerners ;)

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@AndyC

Quote:

AndyC wrote: @Franko You're certifiable! AndyC

Hmmm... Edinburgh eh...

Certifiable... eh... eh...

I think I know you...

You were one of me doctors where I once spent an erm... wee holiday in a certain rather run down decrepit wee hospital up towards the dry sky slope and you gave me that nice certificate to prove it... I'm onto you... eh.. eh..

PS: Could you ask one of the nurses if they've found my teeth yet, still say mad Maggie nicked em when I was sleeping that night she ran over me bed when the nurses were chasing her with the big needle...

PPS: You have no idea how true this post is (unless you really were my doctor)...

Last edited by Franko on 24-Mar-2012 at 02:06 PM.

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@TiredofLife

Quote:

TiredofLife wrote: @Franko I'm happy to extend border priviledges between the newly created countries of North England and Frankoland. Maybe we can come together on other issues such as defense and commerce. Your phrase referrring to southerners is already in common usuage in the north and will be very popular as a rallying cry. P.S. I assumed you were joking when discussed a possible need to hide behind some wall from the southerners ;)

Not sure if me neighbours would be happy though (one of em's Welsh)...

Course I was kidding about hiding behind the wall... there's plenty of space for us all to hide there from those soft southern .....'s

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@AndyC

Quote:

What bonuses are you referring to here?

Primarily the per capita share of the total financial expenditure within the UK, as set out in the Barnett formula. Politically there is also the West Lothian question, as put by Tam Dalyell, and the proportion of Scottish MPs in Westminster per unit of population. Perhaps we should start campaigning for English independence, and pull England out of the UK.

Quote:

Scotland, by contrast, does not need the rest of the UK to thrive on its own on the world stage.

Considering that Scotland only joined the Union as a result of its bankrupcy following the Darien scheme, the claims of financial superiority by claiming sole benefit from oil resources developed and exploited by combined UK efforts sounds like a wife kicking her husband out with nothing because she no longer needs him after buying the winning lottery ticket from her housekeeping money.

Quote:

Scotland's potential is based on a number of things. - Financial Services. Notwithstanding the failed Scottish Banks (which were run from the City in all fairness) there are life, pensions, fund management and other banking institutions headquartered and operating out of Scotland. This would remain the case after independence.

So you are blaming London for the collapse of Scottish banks when they replicated the practices of the "Celtic tiger" economies as exemplified by Ireland or Iceland. Just remember that the money keeping the Scottish banks afloat has been lifted from the taxpayers pocket, and the majority of those taxpayers are English.


@Franko

Quote:

PS: As I'm time served Stone Mason as well as Carpenter, reckon I might be able to get myself a wee part time job out of all this when we rebuild Hadrians wall again...

A wall would not be a bad idea, but could you put it down the central reservation of the M25. That way we can block the underpasses, knock down the flyovers, and keep everybody happy.

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@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote: Perhaps we should start campaigning for English independence, and pull England out of the UK...... A wall would not be a bad idea, but could you put it down the central reservation of the M25. That way we can block the underpasses, knock down the flyovers, and keep everybody happy.

Nothing but yourselves stopping you demanding independence, I know one thing for sure had I'd been born English I would have been campaigning for independence just like I have done for Scottish independence for the past 31 years...

If I had my way I'd build Hadrians wall right round the whole of London and lob dead Haggi (can't use live one's that'd be cruel) and out of date rock hard Macaroon bars over the wall at em...

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@Franko

Congrats on your thousandth post.
I may not agree with your ways, or even some of your views, but you do brighten the place up somewhat.

Rude!

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Nissan GTR '08

I wonder if the UK parliament was more central to all countries that make up the UK, say Liverpool, would that better shape the perception of politicians of who make all the decisions. The riots would also be better too!

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@Rudei

Quote:

Rudei wrote: @Franko Congrats on your thousandth post. I may not agree with your ways, or even some of your views, but you do brighten the place up somewhat. Rude!

Wow... I hadn't noticed that... cheers mate...

Looks like folk might be right when they tell me I can't half gibber (usually followed by gonnae shut ra hell up fer wance)...

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@Nimrod

Quote:

Primarily the per capita share of the total financial expenditure within the UK, as set out in the Barnett formula. Politically there is also the West Lothian question, as put by Tam Dalyell, and the proportion of Scottish MPs in Westminster per unit of population. Perhaps we should start campaigning for English independence, and pull England out of the UK.

I grew up in Tam Dalyell's constituency and was acquainted with his wife Kathleen through church (I was an altar boy at their daughter's wedding too, for what it's worth!)

The SNP do not vote in Westminster on issues that do not affect Scotland. It's the other parties that do that. I agree that Scottish MPs should have no say in matters that do not impact on Scottish constituents.

Funding and finance for Scoland from the UK treasury has been the subject of much controversy, debate and misinformation. The UK government's own report on Scottish revenues confirm that Scotland pays more back to the UK than she takes - this is fiscal fact, Barnett formula or otherwise. Coincidentally, This doesn't include the oil money... (see below for more)

Scottish Executive Report

Scottish Conservative Leader Statement on UK subsidy or lack of...

New Statesman article

Newsnet Scotland article

Quote:

Considering that Scotland only joined the Union as a result of its bankrupcy following the Darien scheme, the claims of financial superiority by claiming sole benefit from oil resources developed and exploited by combined UK efforts sounds like a wife kicking her husband out with nothing because she no longer needs him after buying the winning lottery ticket from her housekeeping money.

The Darien Scheme, of which I'm also relatively well acquainted, was the ill-fated Scottish venture to set up a colony in South America. That was 320 years ago. Which makes it about as relevant now as a custard pie in a wet suit.

International maritime law governs oil rights now, and Scotland (being a sovereign nation in an equal union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland) has it's own coastal waters.

Disposition of the North Sea oil will be decided on this basis, probably via binding international arbitration, and would result in Scotland retaining around 86% of the oil (what's left of it, estimates for which increase year on year based on improvements in technology - and it's not like the price of oil is going to drop any time soon)

Quote:

So you are blaming London for the collapse of Scottish banks when they replicated the practices of the "Celtic tiger" economies as exemplified by Ireland or Iceland. Just remember that the money keeping the Scottish banks afloat has been lifted from the taxpayers pocket, and the majority of those taxpayers are English.

Just one point before I continue. You say "Scottish banks" - plural. Only one Scottish bank was bailed out - RBS. HBOS was headquartered in England, and was bought by Lloyds prior to the bail out, which is also headquartered in England.

At the time of the banking collapse, I worked for one of the now nationalised banks. I now work for the other. I therefore have a fairly good grasp on why the banks failed. In HBOS' case, it was CEO Andy Hornby (in London) and his attempts to build the HBOS Corporate brand in the City of London. He took massive risks, along with his chief of the Corporate Division (Edinburgh based Peter Cummings) which led to the demise of the bank. Lloyds were then coerced into buying the bank without undertaking proper due diligence and ended up part owned by the taxpayer following the subsequent bail out, once the true extent of the banks losses were realised.

RBS failed because of the arrogance of one man (Fred Goodwin), the lack of backbone from his immediate reports, and the conduct of his Global Banking & Markets division (certainly not based in Scotland!). When RBS foolishly purchased competitor ABN AMRO without undertaking due diligence, it resulted in the inheritance of massive international sub prime debts, causing the bank's eventual collapse. I grant you, however, that the crucial decision was likely made from a boardroom in Edinburgh.

In the event of independence, Scottish taxpayers would continue to pay their share of the bail out exactly as they are now, based on the likely inheritance of a per capita share in UK assets and liabilities. Therefore, this is a bit of a red herring...

I could go on...

AndyC

@Thread

Thought this was an interesting new development.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-17574289


"Their claims about winning the referendum are exposed as mere bravado. In fact they are already preparing for losing."

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