We should be united.

Or why project AROS should be canceled.

Often there are threads about the transition Amiga os to X86.

According to the x86 fanboys this should solve all problems.

In fact, it is a scam and an attempt to force people to use a solution

that has all the disadvantages of ppc and none advantages of ppc.

Consider a OS that wanna be a clone of the Amiga Os on x86 - AROS.

Problems with x86 that has AROS, and has not professional systems on x86 like Windows,Linux,Os X:

1. No support for multiple cores - there is not and never will be SMP compatible

with the old software due to forbid/permit problem.

2. Lack of commercial quality drivers.

3. Lack of memory protection.

4. Lack of virtualization.

The effects of these problems:

1. Games

AROS has about 6 times slower 3D graphics than OS with the commercial NVidia drivers:

For exmaple on my Q6600 2.4 GHz 9600 GT

Quake III (ioquake) get

Linux 457.7 fps
Aros 83.5 fps

2. Video decoding/encoding

Due to lack of driver support for PureVideo, Video decoding on system with support for only one core

is about 80 times slower than Linux with commercial NVidia drivers.

Difference between a system with a single core and nouveau,

and multiple cores and commercial Nvidia drivers for Linux I give here

on Linux because Aros is too primitive to measure it.

CPU load when playing movies on linux 80 % using a single core, falling to 2% by using VDPAU .

3. 3D rendering - standard test.blend Blender is of course much faster on 4 cores

1 core 01:17.73
4 cores 00:21.54

So a system with support for one core only is about 3.6 times slower than the one which fully supports the processor.

4. 3D rendering with GPU support - standard test.blend Blender is of course much faster

on system with commercial Nvidia drivers.

For example on Linux:

1 core 01:17.73
CUDA/cycles 00:09.06

So a system with support for one core only is about 8.6 times slower

than system with commercial Nvidia drivers with CUDA.

Conclusions

Due to lack of drivers on a fast pc Aros is in games/3D rendering/Video decoding

as slow as current ppc solutions compared to Windows/Linux/Os X.

There is no doubt that due to the lack of support for multiple cores

and the lack of commercial quality NVidia drivers.

AROS is useless and should be canceled many years ago - no later than 2007.

There is no doubt that AROS is not and never will be good enough to justify
resignation from use Windows/Linux/Os X.

Our community already has quick and cheap x86 solution.

It is WinUAE.

It is fast - it is only 3,5 slower than native code.

It works on any pc.

People who do not want to spend money on ppc should use WinUAE.

Resignation of Aros would allow the introduction of a single binary platform -

software developer could prepare a 68k exe which would work on Amiga Os/Morphos/Amiga Os 3 on WinUAE.

What no doubt have a positive influence on the development of software for our community.

@mailman2

Mmmmmmm yummy flamebait!!!!

So what your saying is that we should kill slowly developing ( and according to also slow) system in favor of system that hasn't any poper updates in 20 years and by virtue of design is either fast on real slow HW or reaches 20% speed ( at best ) on faster HW.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@mailman2

[QUOTE] Problems with x86 that has AROS, and has not professional
systems on x86 like Windows,Linux,Os X:
1. No support for multiple cores - there is not and never will
be SMP compatible
with the old software due to forbid/permit problem.
2. Lack of commercial quality drivers.
3. Lack of memory protection.
4. Lack of virtualization.[/QUOTE]


This is why ARIX was created(a marriage of AROS-Amiga to UNIX/Linux).

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 22-Apr-2014 at 07:14 PM.

_________________

All that just to say "I prefer WinUAE"?

I think you'll find that nearly all of us already use WinUAE/EUAE/United Arab Emirates/etc and yet we still like to use one or more of the other alternatives out there.

If speed was everything then I wouldn't power up my PET 8032 anymore.

_________________
AmigaOne X1000, A4000(T), A3000, A2000, A1200(T), A1200, A500, CD32, Minimig+ARM, FPGA Arcade, Chameleon64, C-One, C128, C128D, C64C, C64, VIC-20, CBM 8032, CBM4032, Efika, Ultimate64

I got Amiga Forever and C64 Forever. Still, that doesnt prevent me from using my A1200 from time to time.

We have to accept that different people enjoy and perfer different things. The good (depending on pov) is that Amiga aligned developers now develop their games to several platforms to increase their sales.

Its a smart move and hopefully will retain/increase the development of new software/games on your NG/Classical Amiga.

@Darrin

Quote:

United Arab Emirates

_________________
Modern Retro Experience

@mailman2

Quote:

mailman2 wrote: WinUAE. It is fast - it is only 3,5 slower than native code.

Lame benchmark:

FS-UAE: 16:59 min
E-UAE: 1:24 min
WinUAE (via WINE): 0:46 min
Ubuntu native: 0:06 min
AROS native: 0:09 min.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@mailman2

Quote:

It is fast - it is only 3,5 slower than native code.

Benchmarks?


Quote:

AROS is useless and should be canceled many years ago - no later than 2007.

I love AROS. As child, I dreamed to play Dungeon Keeper on Amiga. Thanks to AROS it is reality.
Sure, I use WinUAE far more often than native AROS, but that great OS has its rigtfully place on my desktop.

@mailman2

>We should be united.

+1

>Or why project AROS should be canceled.

ååå?

I'm not saying that AROS guys are doing the right thing, but I think it's the one where politics do not play any (signifficant) role.
I imagine that if AROS would be far enough ahead of AOS+MOS, NG community would be behind that one.

>Often there are threads about the transition Amiga os to X86.
>According to the x86 fanboys this should solve all problems.

IMO, it would not solve any problem (without generating another ones).

>that has all the disadvantages of ppc and none advantages of ppc.

hmm... perhaps you mean that even if x86 is faster than ppc, AROS system on x86 is not. .. perhaps so.

>Consider a OS that wanna be a clone of the Amiga Os on x86 - AROS.
>Problems with x86 that has AROS, and has not professional systems on x86 like Windows,Linux,Os X:
>1. No support for multiple cores - there is not and never will be SMP compatible
>with the old software due to forbid/permit problem.

I'm 100% sure all AmigaOS NG flavours will have SMP. One way or the other. Otherwise they disappear.
(SMP is being built in AOS, MOS has SMP in it's kernell for future, AROS has experimental SMP and AEROS etc.)

>2. Lack of commercial quality drivers.

Hard to compete with mainstream commercial ....
But if you meant that on x86 one needs to be competitive with commercial but with PPC not so... ?
Hard to follow.

>3. Lack of memory protection.

We must have also that one day. ... perhaps AROS has done less work with that .... but AEROS...?

...

>There is no doubt that due to the lack of support for multiple cores and the lack of commercial quality NVidia drivers.
>AROS is useless and should be canceled many years ago - no later than 2007.

hmm.... can not agree or disagree totally.
In my view:
AROS - very immature (but I have not really checked it in two years or so, not worked on my HW too well)
AOS4 - immature (a lot of things to set before one can work/hobby everyday things + expensive HW)
AOS3.x - mature, but not so modern etc.
MOS - the most mature of NG AOS variant (but I have used it too little)

etc...

>There is no doubt that AROS is not and never will be good enough to justify
resignation from use Windows/Linux/Os X.

I agree 150%!
(but will AOS4 or MOS be good enough to make people ditch mainstream and buy PPC box?? Doubt anytime soon ...!)

And WinUAE is good enough only for retro kind of use.

>Our community already has quick and cheap x86 solution.
>It is WinUAE.

I think x86 users deserve better anyway. ;-P

>It works on any pc.

Not unless I buy windows. Or cannibalize some DirectX stuff from win box or...?

>People who do not want to spend money on ppc should use WinUAE.

It is possible to produce 200eur PPC computer system. With OS it costs only 300% more than windows for existing x86. (costs the same as x86 PC, even if less CPU power)

>Resignation of Aros would allow the introduction of a single binary platform - software developer could prepare a 68k exe which would work on Amiga Os/Morphos/Amiga Os 3 on WinUAE.

68k as the binary form.... It might work for some SW.
We could have also some other binary format, or PPC to x86 JIT on x86 boxes.

(+ most people believe that AOS4 and MOS developers can never work together)

>What no doubt have a positive influence on the development of software for our community.

32bit is not the future.
We need to address 4GB (and more) to use modern GPU card + SW in decent way.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@mailman2

Instead of trolling you should be coding amiga 68k software!

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

@mailman2

Quote:

We should be united.

Oh, NOT this cr@p again!

_________________
The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

United Force!

http://www.demoscene.tv/prod.php?id_prod=13264

@mailman2

I do not understand what you write. First Aros runs on WinUAE (and others) as Aros 68k. Then even if Aros would be dropped how would that "unify" the community? 68k runs on Aros X86 in emulation, I do really not understand what you are writing...

@mailman2

First of I think your abit late, I think the community is bit tiered of it, nothing you or anyone says changes anyone minds.

The problem whit this is that people are different and people like different things. Its not possible to dictate one thing or the other.

Yes it be better if every one work on just one OS, but as that is not going to happen, I suggest cross platform development is right road to take when if possible. Most of software that is coming is from open source projects so it makes sense to be working on things using common SVN repositories, parts done to one OS often helps make easier to port to other OS's of the same family.

WinUAE development does really help any flavor, it does not improve CPU support or graphic card support or anything really, WinUAE is about preserving the software, not improving on it.

When it comes to classic AmigaOS3.x / MC680x0 there is no point, there want be any FPGA super Amiga, the AmigaOS3.9 is the last AmigaOS 680x0 OS, there want be any updates.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Apr-2014 at 02:23 AM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

I think you're talking about fragmentation resulting in lack of NG development?

Of course it would have been better to have a single unified 'Amigaish' hobby OS but that's not going to happen now.

People need to realize that no magic bullet is going to appear that fixes all of the problems with the NG Amiga scene. Just accept things the way they are and enjoy the diversity

Yep WinUAE rocks, we all know that and most of us use it already. Emulation will never replace the original Classic hardware for some of us though. I think I'd prefer hardware emulation (FPGA) over software emulation if it came down to that choice (the original hardware won't last forever!).

Last edited by NovaCoder on 23-Apr-2014 at 05:07 AM.
Last edited by NovaCoder on 23-Apr-2014 at 05:06 AM.
Last edited by NovaCoder on 23-Apr-2014 at 01:31 AM.

Too many free time detected....

_________________
Peg1, Peg2, Efika,
Amiga 500, Amiga 1230,
Amiga 4000PPC,
Sam 440EP, AmigaOne XE,
MacMini PPC, PowerMac G4, G5

@mailman2

Yes, united but when AROS runs directly on a x86 machine and not only on host, that I buy a little x86 board and here I can install AROS directly to run, not with Vittual machines, etc.

@Arko

>Lame benchmark:
>Ubuntu native: 0:06 min
>AROS native: 0:09 min.

Interesting that AROS native is only 70% of the Ubuntu native speed (30% slower).
Was ubuntu test using multiple cores?

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

OS 4.2 will have SMP support, according to a recent tweet by the official AmigaOS twitter account. So I don't see why AROS wouldn't be able to do it (or reverse engineer it at most) after 4.2 lands.

I also don't see mailman's x86 point. x86 is slowly dying as 64-bit and ARM take over the general market. The only thing x86 (or 64-bit) will solve is the price point of a new Amiga, as the hardware is cheaper than PPC hardware. But other than that, what's the advantage? PPC is fine as is and 4.2 is gonna bring more modern goodness to AmigaOS. Being an outsider isn't a problem. If it was, then I wonder how OSX got the market share it has. Most people with OSX don't have a Hackintosh, so they have invested in their OSX hardware. And it's not like Apple is marketing OSX that well. The only thing they're marketing outside of their website is their iDevices.

Last edited by Vistaus on 23-Apr-2014 at 10:58 AM.

_________________
Proud user of AmigaOS 4.1 on an AmigaONE 500. This is the first Amiga I've ever had so I don't know all the ins and outs of AmigaOS yet, so I'm sorry if I'm asking noob questions and stuff.

@Vistaus
Quote:

OS 4.2 will have SMP support, according to a recent tweet by the official AmigaOS twitter account.

That tweet says multi-core support, not SMP support. Always these tiny damn details...

Quote:

So I don't see why AROS wouldn't be able to do it (or reverse engineer it at most) after 4.2 lands.

My bet that there will be nothing to copy or reverse engineer for AROS guys, except maybe a yet-another-reincarnation of concepts first appeared in PowerUP which was originally made by people behind - MorphOS.

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)