@Hyperionmp

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification.

There is also the "Compositing engine" in OS4

The CompositeTags function allow various blitter like hardware effects Like the blitter it copy bitmaps rectangular parts
But it also allow
various transparency effects
resizing
filtering (=smooths pixels)
to draw textured 3D triangles

So it is a "blitter" that allow to "rotate/resize/smooth/blend" the drawn "sprite" or "tile map"

Alain Thellier

@Vistaus

Quote:

Vistaus wrote: Since my Amiga experience started last year with 4.1, I'm not experienced on using 3.9 which is why I'm asking this out of interest. Since there are still many people attached to 3.9 who don't want anything (or little) to do with 4.1/4.2 because of the experience, what exactly is it that's so different about the 4.x experience (aside from the theming/icons/etc.)? Is there some big misser? Note that I'm talking software here, not hardware. I know very well the differences in terms of hardware (PPC vs 68k, custom chips, etc.). But I've never had an Amiga before my AONE500 so I've never used 3.9 and thus I'd like to know from 3.9 users that either use or used 4.x what's different in the software experience.

In my opinion there are two main reason why some people prefer to use 3.x over 4.x. It's not becasue OS3.9 itself is particularly superior to OS4.1 in any major way.

1. They want to have a "real" classic Commodore Amiga with the custom chipset, authentic keyboard etc, and to do that, using 3.9 is the only (latest) option. (Well, there is OS4 for classic PPC, but then a new Amiga, like Sam, is better.)

2. They want to have a laptop Amiga, or they don't want to have two different machines; one PC and one Amiga. In this case emulating Amiga on a PC is the only option, and only OS3.9 can be emulated.

Many of both the 1. and 2. people probably would have liked to use OS4.1 instead if it was possible.

For me, it is most important to be able to use the Amiga for everything, no PC, and then using a Classic Amiga is not possible because it is too slow and has too little memory for modern browsing, videos etc. So I have always tried to use the fastest Amiga possible with the newest possible OS. Now I have an X1000

_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@Vistaus

Well that's quite a jump there. So that from OS3.1 to OS4.1? A 1.0 jump doesn't sound like much.

I once wrote a review of OS4.0, developer pre-release, IIRC. So getting that out of the wood work would be a good comparison.

Now I know you said software, but it begins with hardware. And I have to point out where AmigaOS actually starts, in the Kickstart. An Amiga has the Kickstart in ROM chips. And if it doesn't (A1000) then it has bootstrap ROM code to load Kickstart off disk.

An AmigaOne doesn't have this Kickstart ROM. In fact, it has a foreign firmware that acts more like an A1000 in method as it loads from disk, but the two are worlds apart. On the AmigaOne you have to put up with this basic non-Amiga like old fashioned text based so-called bootloader to load the Kickstart that doesn't even use Topaz 8! Ten years ago Amiga users were quite critical of this. It looked like the new hardware had gone back to the computer stone age before the Amiga.

Following on from there, there is no plug'n'play AutoConfig anymore. Unfortunately, due to moving away from actual Amiga hardware, this has to be dropped and a disk driver based Windows'95 style of plug'n'play was put in place. Not even the AmigaOS Expansions drawer for this purpose would be used.

And them, the Workbench. My first impression was OS4.0 after OS3.9 so the gap you are judging with is way larger! What you first notice is appearance of windows borders and icons. Even with OS4.0 it was fresher. It makes OS3.9 look old. OS4.1 makes this worse as that makes OS4.0 look old! The way is uses 2d compositing effects and rounded gadgets just makes it look modern. I saw Linux do this once and liked the effect. And then later AmigaOS was doing the same!

Next I would compare Workbench programs and drawers. Early on they dropped Tools and merged it with Utilities, claiming it was confusing. I don't know why. Actually this confused me as I knew the difference. And I'm sure every other Amiga user did too. So then in Utilities HDToolBox became Media Toolbox, EditPad from OS3.9 became NotePad again. Things like OS3.9 Action (movie player), AnimatedIcondand Amplifier dropped.

Internet became more useful with a fully working built in stack. And an interface put over the top with a wizard and basic settings editor. Unfortunately it's still text based under the hood so things like reconnecting over cable loss, disconnecting or even querying basic connection settings must be done over the CLI. And it's not always reliable. Sometimes the easiest thing to do is just to reboot.

In OS4.1 WBStartup was changed in a move to keep applications in their own spot and instead reference them with a start up list set in an editor. This does has drawbacks. You are limited to the interface of the editor and can't drag and drop icons like before into a drawer. Here you can see that methods of other OS should be used with WBStartup drawer containing soft links. But then the OS would need a hook to copy links and even a copy hook but it doesn't AFAIK. You can add your own WBStartup drawer back. I did.

System is fairly similar. What I notice under OS3.9 is Shell_VNC which provided a modern shell with a scroll bar. OS4.1 has tab completion but it will take until OS4.2 till we get a proper Shell with scroll bars. This should include tabs to bring it up to scratch. It's sad that one of the AmigaOS strengths has lapsed behind so much. So for the moment we still need KingCON which can be unstable.

In Prefs some things have been moved around or added but it's still pretty much the same as we remember it. Some things like Printer drivers are way behind simply because OS3.1 was from another time and there have been no new ones since to support modern printers. There is AmiPDF and AmiGS for PDF and PS files which has its own drivers but these are now getting behind. But what I really don't understand is Palette Prefs. This is missing the nice colour wheel that we had in OS3.1 even and is replaced with some basic palette gadget. Given OS4.x is supposed to use code from OS3.x minimum I don't understand why it's missing.

With CD devices drives are picked up and CDx devices added by the system. However the CDFS support is basic depending on your needs. There is limited HFS support and older UDF is supported. As well as multi-session is said to be. But things like the multi-volume support from CacheCDFS is missing. Meaning I can't directly read my old Amiga backups on my modern AmigaOS system which is frustrating and silly to say the least.

Apart from that there are many other changes under the hood. And extremely so when comparing to OS3.1. People touched on programming and it has to be said that OS4 has a library base and now an interface pointer for the PPC native functions table which can be a real PITA. Especially when porting standard Amiga software, drivers or devices two bases must be maintained. And some times some sources have become a real mess by being compilable on AmigaOS clones but complicated on OS4 and sometimes just crash when compiled.

I didn't mean to post so much. Haven't even spoken about everything. Only touched a bit of it!

@Hypex

Where did you get that I was coming from OS 3.1? I've never used an Amiga until I bought my AmigaONE 500 with OS 4.1 last year. So I'm relatively new to the Amiga scene in general.

Also: I can print just fine with a modern HP printer, as I also pointed out in another topic. My guess is that it just uses a generic driver or something, but it works. It also recognizes the model number when I plug it in.

But thanks for the rest of the post, I actually learned a thing or two from that :)

_________________
Proud user of AmigaOS 4.1 on an AmigaONE 500. This is the first Amiga I've ever had so I don't know all the ins and outs of AmigaOS yet, so I'm sorry if I'm asking noob questions and stuff.

@Hypex

Quote:

Now I know you said software, but it begins with hardware. And I have to point out where AmigaOS actually starts, in the Kickstart. An Amiga has the Kickstart in ROM chips. And if it doesn't (A1000) then it has bootstrap ROM code to load Kickstart off disk. An AmigaOne doesn't have this Kickstart ROM. In fact, it has a foreign firmware that acts more like an A1000 in method as it loads from disk, but the two are worlds apart. On the AmigaOne you have to put up with this basic non-Amiga like old fashioned text based so-called bootloader to load the Kickstart that doesn't even use Topaz 8! Ten years ago Amiga users were quite critical of this. It looked like the new hardware had gone back to the computer stone age before the Amiga.

It never worried me much that there was a text based bios alike, Early bootup. Maybe I'm not textaphobic like you The advantages of upgrading indivual kickstart items far outway the risk of repeatable burning a new ROM for testing and now upgrading via amiupdate. Ony the very occasional Uboot upgrade to make you worry about briking you amiga.

Quote:

Following on from there, there is no plug'n'play AutoConfig anymore. Unfortunately, due to moving away from actual Amiga hardware, this has to be dropped and a disk driver based Windows'95 style of plug'n'play was put in place. Not even the AmigaOS Expansions drawer for this purpose would be used.

Well it still autoconfig, add memeory and boards you don't need to manualy allocate memory locataions. You need to install drivers ofcourse but then you would for classic too. Was Expansion draer ecer used for anything? Not on any system I used, perhaps it was on big box amigas.

Quote:

And them, the Workbench. My first impression was OS4.0 after OS3.9 so the gap you are judging with is way larger! What you first notice is appearance of windows borders and icons. Even with OS4.0 it was fresher. It makes OS3.9 look old. OS4.1 makes this worse as that makes OS4.0 look old! The way is uses 2d compositing effects and rounded gadgets just makes it look modern. I saw Linux do this once and liked the effect. And then later AmigaOS was doing the same!

But faster I might add, 'composited' linux desktops crawl on similar hardware!

Quote:

Next I would compare Workbench programs and drawers. Early on they dropped Tools and merged it with Utilities, claiming it was confusing. I don't know why. Actually this confused me as I knew the difference. And I'm sure every other Amiga user did too.

You think you knew the differece but I bet it was a matter of habit.

Quote:

So then in Utilities HDToolBox became Media Toolbox,

System!"

Quote:

EditPad from OS3.9 became NotePad again.

Jumping from 3.5 to.41 I never noticed the oscillation in name.

Quote:

Things like OS3.9 Action (movie player),

Contribution I think. We got DVplayer instead, which eats the older player for breakfast.

Quote:

AnimatedIcond

It was abit useless though, the functionality is still in the API hence my much improved AnimIcon tool (OS4.1 version on os4depot).

Quote:

and Amplifier dropped.

Another contrib, contribs come and go according liscense expiry etc.

Quote:

Internet became more useful with a fully working built in stack. And an interface put over the top with a wizard and basic settings editor. Unfortunately it's still text based under the hood so things like reconnecting over cable loss, disconnecting or even querying basic connection settings must be done over the CLI. And it's not always reliable. Sometimes the easiest thing to do is just to reboot.

More Textphobia!

Quote:

In OS4.1 WBStartup was changed in a move to keep applications in their own spot and instead reference them with a start up list set in an editor. This does has drawbacks. You are limited to the interface of the editor and can't drag and drop icons like before into a drawer. Here you can see that methods of other OS should be used with WBStartup drawer containing soft links. But then the OS would need a hook to copy links and even a copy hook but it doesn't AFAIK. You can add your own WBStartup drawer back. I did.

Create links to your pps from WBstartup would require the CLI, eeek text, hypex runs away....

You can drag and drop icns on to the Startup prefs and the biggest advantage is that you don't move the tool from it's original location to the WBStartup drawer, though I liked the concept I always hated the risk of deleting a commodity because of that. In the floppy ear that made more sense not in the HD era.

Quote:

System is fairly similar. What I notice under OS3.9 is Shell_VNC which provided a modern shell with a scroll bar. OS4.1 has tab completion but it will take until OS4.2 till we get a proper Shell with scroll bars. This should include tabs to bring it up to scratch. It's sad that one of the AmigaOS strengths has lapsed behind so much. So for the moment we still need KingCON which can be unstable.

Shell_VNC was another contrib , I always used KingCon on my 3.5 . Comparing the base 3.5 and 4.x consoless then 4.1 is much improved, even if you might still want to add an alternate to get everything. Any why would you care being a textaphobic non GUI is old fashioneed kind of guy?

Quote:

In Prefs some things have been moved around or added but it's still pretty much the same as we remember it. Some things like Printer drivers are way behind simply because OS3.1 was from another time and there have been no new ones since to support modern printers. There is AmiPDF and AmiGS for PDF and PS files which has its own drivers but these are now getting behind. But what I really don't understand is Palette Prefs. This is missing the nice colour wheel that we had in OS3.1 even and is replaced with some basic palette gadget. Given OS4.x is supposed to use code from OS3.x minimum I don't understand why it's missing.

Don;t remeber that colour wheel in palete prefs but if it was there maybe it was one of the small things that H&P wouldn't give up. The colour wheel itself is still present as a reaction class.

Quote:

With CD devices drives are picked up and CDx devices added by the system. However the CDFS support is basic depending on your needs. There is limited HFS support and older UDF is supported. As well as multi-session is said to be. But things like the multi-volume support from CacheCDFS is missing. Meaning I can't directly read my old Amiga backups on my modern AmigaOS system which is frustrating and silly to say the least.

I think I missed multivolume for a very short time. But mostly CDs needed to communcate with the PC world so multivolume didn't work then any way. Multisession stills works IIRC, (a while since I made one though).


Quote:

Apart from that there are many other changes under the hood. And extremely so when comparing to OS3.1. People touched on programming and it has to be said that OS4 has a library base and now an interface pointer for the PPC native functions table which can be a real PITA.

Seriously it's not a PITA but much much easy to work with, no night mare glues code in the form of inlines. Even glue code for 68k access is neatly contained inside the library. PPC access for 68k is extrnal ofcourse as you can't retro fit the interface.

Quote:

Especially when porting standard Amiga software, drivers or devices two bases must be maintained. And some times some sources have become a real mess by being compilable on AmigaOS clones but complicated on OS4 and sometimes just crash when compiled.

You do *not* need to maintian two bases, just the interface, the 68k glue code to that interface if need is built autmatically. The SDI includes make building a portable library easy when needed, although the default example is slightly broken which causes initial confusion. If your portable code crashes any that wasn't the reason, you just suck at coding...

_________________
BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@Vistaus

Quote:

Where did you get that I was coming from OS 3.1?

For some reason I thought you meant you never used OS3.9 in between. And since OS3.x was the last below that OS3.1 was exactly 1.0 away from OS4.1.

Quote:

I've never used an Amiga until I bought my AmigaONE 500 with OS 4.1 last year.

Now I have to ask, why? If you have never owned an actual Amiga how on earth did you find out about them? And what possessed you to buy one (be that a Sam) today?

Quote:

It also recognizes the model number when I plug it in.

The actual driver does? Or the USB stack? The HP drivers are built from the same generic code but they do use HP PCL3 language. So HP specific.

@Hypex

I'd have to say you do portray OS4 in a bit more negative way than it deserves.

One needs to recognize that the changes from OS3 to OS4 API is for the better. It was the old way that was bad, not the new way, and now we have something better. The library ifaces are a blessing (although you need to copy'n'paste a few more character). It make object orientation and multitasking possible without ambiguity since you can create a local iface handle anywhere, in your classes or functions or new task.

As for the directory structure: It is also better in most ways. It's just us oldies who have spent years learning the strange ways of Tools and Utilities and Prefs and WBStartup. The new ways are all in all better, just an uncomfortable change for us oldies

Now even DirOpus magellan works on OS4 so there is nothing we miss from OS3 now

@Vistaus

Some people say you should try OS3, but there is little point if you ask me. It "feels" the same. It's just that some oldies has such a very specific setup that may not transpose to OS4 completely and therefore they claim OS3 is better, even if it isn't. It's only better for them, not for the rest of us

_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@Vistaus

I think 68k is more interesting with its dynamic and development (f.e. new FPGA based accellerators) so I do not miss anything.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 24-Jun-2014 at 04:39 PM.

@Deniil715

Quote:

Some people say you should try OS3, but there is little point if you ask me. It "feels" the same.

You say that, but sometimes I go back to my A1200 and find it awkward to do anything. Not being able to drag windows off the screen I find particularly annoying, especially with the limited screen resolution I have to use.

_________________
"Miracles we do at once, the impossible takes a little longer" - AJS on Hyperion
Avatar is Tabitha by Eric W Schwartz

@Chris_Y

Quote:

sometimes I go back to my A1200 and find it awkward to do anything.

Me too. It's like returning to the Middle Ages.

_________________
The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

@broadblues

Quote:

Maybe I'm not textaphobic like you

That wasn't the point. The Amiga was about being better than that since the beginning. Text at bootup is a foreign concept. A CD32 has an animation that can run rings around any NG Amiga boot screen. And an OS3 machine can produce a simple GUI with pointer in a matter of seconds.

Quote:

The advantages of upgrading indivual kickstart items far outway the risk of repeatable burning a new ROM for testing

Like the A1000 the Kickstart doesn't need to be in ROM. There just needs to be a loader. The Macs used to have a boot ROM that contained a simple GUI to pick the boot device. This is the sort of thing a real NG Amiga would have.

Quote:

You need to install drivers ofcourse but then you would for classic too.

Proper cards would have the driver on a boot ROM. If you look at a VGA card then this is the same concept on a PC, a boot ROM to set up the card, but without drivers.

Quote:

Was Expansion drawer ever used for anything?

It was. For on-disk drivers loaded at bootup. IIRC through BindDrivers. But mostly in the 1.3 days.

Quote:

But faster I might add, 'composited' linux desktops crawl on similar hardware!

Without optimised driver, yes.

BTW I saw it first on a PC.

Quote:

You think you knew the difference but I bet it was a matter of habit.

Whatever I thought I knew MultiView and Clock belonged in Utilities and that Tools was where we found Commodities. Now it's all messed up man!

I think they should have picked Tools to keep. Less moving around and it's shorter.

Quote:

System!"

See! It was a Tool! Now I can't remember where it is anymore! It was never in System.

Quote:

Jumping from 3.5 to.41 I never noticed the oscillation in name.

Know NotePad from the 1.3 days. But it should have stayed EditPad IMHO as NotePad had way more features. The NotePad of today is a simple text editor. Pah!

Quote:

We got DVplayer instead, which eats the older player for breakfast.

I wouldn't say that. You have to look at it from the context of the time. Action played QT (MOV) and AVI files. DvPlayer as included in OS4 only does MPEG.

Quote:

It was abit useless though

AFAIK never used it myself.

Quote:

More Textphobia!

No it isn't. Even Linux can give you basic connection settings from a top menu. It is about needing to use a CLI command to get info where you should be able to just open an application to present in a GUI. Not everyone knows the CLI commands for doing this and they shouldn't need too.

Quote:

Create links to your pps from WBstartup would require the CLI, eeek text, hypex runs away....

I do not run away and that is Hypex to you thank you very much.

You don't need the CLI to create links. It can be done from the Workbench with a program. But anyway this wasn't the point I was making, the point was the OS having built in support to copy files as links at the API level. But this should have been thought about ten years ago as most tools like DirOpus would do copys by hand since an OS API wasn't there.

Quote:

I always used KingCon on my 3.5

So did I. But then we had a choice.

Quote:

Comparing the base 3.5 and 4.x consoless then 4.1 is much improved

Probably is if the tab completion doesn't annoy you. I still prefer KingCON now on OS4 but would prefer a native scroll bar.

Quote:

Any why would you care being a textaphobic non GUI is old fashioneed kind of guy?

It's like you don't know me at all. FYI I'm a Shell fanboy from wayback. I annoy others by using it.

BTW, regarding the CLI, I am reminded of NovaCoder. I was having a chat with him one time and he didn't know what it is with us and the CLI. And why we need it. He compiles all his Amiga ports without a CLI he was saying. :

Quote:

Don;t remeber that colour wheel in palete prefs but if it was there maybe it was one of the small things that H&P wouldn't give up.

What were they doing with it in the first place? OS3.1 was made by Commodore. I thought Hyperion had the right to use all OS3.1 source code? I know with OS3.5-OS3.9 it was in the hand of H&P but I didn't know they had the rights to OS3.1 as well.

Quote:

The colour wheel itself is still present as a reaction class.

Then it should be used, but on OS3.1 it would have been a BOOPSI gadget. Compare the two. Run Palette from OS4. Now close it and run it from WB3.1 in the Emulation drawer.



Quote:

Multisession stills works IIRC, (a while since I made one though).

I thought that idea was cool. Creating a new set of directories using blocks from past sessions. Like hard linking the file headers to data blocks.

Quote:

You do *not* need to maintian two bases, just the interface, the 68k glue code to that interface if need is built autmatically.

You have to open the library and then the interface. And store the pointers somewhere. That's two pointrers to maintain where before there was only one.

And when programers start putting them in weird places and inside structures then the nightmare begins. But what worked on 68K should work everywhere else even with two pointers to keep.

I understood the concept but also wondered why they didn't called it books. Then there would be libraries and books inside them. Seemed like a logical followup to me.

Quote:

The SDI includes make building a portable library easy when needed, although the default example is slightly broken which causes initial confusion.

If they get used.

Quote:

If your portable code crashes any that wasn't the reason, you just suck at coding...

Not pointing any fingers here but not thinking about my code.

@Trixie

it depends on your configuration

@Chris_Y

on Aros 68k this is possible. I find this discussion rather strange. 68k users have their own configuration they use and feel comfortable with. The same is for AmigaOS 4.X and MorphOS and AROS user. Plain 4.X certainly is better than plain 3.9. When was 3.9 published? 2000 or 2001 I think. If a product that is still supported is worse than something that was published more than 10 years ago it would be strange. But most 68k users do not use "plain 3.9". Many use lots of patches and there are all sorts of available for 68k. So a more fair comparation (if ever) would be to compare f.e. Amikit for real hardware (68030/68040) with your configuration.

BTW There will be much better options available for 68k on real hardware in near future and then we will see.

People are happy with what they use and obviously never had interest to change because if they had they would already bought the appropriate hardware. So AmigaOS 4.X can live happily with it and 68k users can live happily with 3.X.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Jun-2014 at 05:06 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Jun-2014 at 04:52 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Jun-2014 at 04:52 PM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

on Aros 68k this is possible.

You mean dragging windows off screen? Thats's cool, but this discussion is 3.9 verses 4.1 and so AROS is OT (68k != 3.x else linux could chime in too).

Quote:

I find this discussion rather strange.

What is strange about it? The fact that most posters are maintaining than 4.0 let alone 4.1 was step forward from 3.9 (3.5 in my case) ? I should really hope it would be with all the effort put in!

Quote:

68k users have their own configuration they use and feel comfortable with.

I was quite comforbatbale before the upgrade (using 3.5 on my a1200 68040 32mb for virtualy all my computing) but still very keen to get hold of the new thing.

Quote:

The same is for AmigaOS 4.X and MorphOS and AROS user.

My OS4.1 setup is much more than just comfortable compared with my a1200 (or my winuae 68k compiling setup) it's streets ahead.

Quote:

Plain 4.X certainly is better than plain 3.9. When was 3.9 published? 2000 or 2001 I think. If a product that is still supported is worse than something that was published more than 10 years ago it would be strange.

Sorry Olaf but that just not on, you cannnot dismiss the improvements by saying "well it still supported so it *should* be better", it *is* better, you just admitted yourself.

Quote:

But most 68k users do not use "plain 3.9". Many use lots of patches and there are all sorts of available for 68k.

True I did on my 3.5 but 4.0 was still better (see post above about the caveats with DOPus).

But my OS4 setup is also customised and configured (no hacky patches ) just system legal stuff but still


Quote:

So a more fair comparation (if ever) would be to compare f.e. Amikit for real hardware (68030/68040) with your configuration.

Perhaps, I'm unable to compare as my a1200 only had dialup and the CD drive had failed, so I couldn't install it, but I wouildn't anyway as I utterly displie the bloatware nature of these megainstall packages, if I wanted that I'd stick to Tasksel on linux.

Quote:

BTW There will be much better options available for 68k on real hardware in near future and then we will see.

What's real hardware in this context?

[edit]typo typo typo[/edit]

Last edited by broadblues on 25-Jun-2014 at 09:04 PM.

_________________
BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@Hypex

Quote:

Quote: Don;t remeber that colour wheel in palete prefs but if it was there maybe it was one of the small things that H&P wouldn't give up. What were they doing with it in the first place? OS3.1 was made by Commodore. I thought Hyperion had the right to use all OS3.1 source code? I know with OS3.5-OS3.9 it was in the hand of H&P but I didn't know they had the rights to OS3.1 as well. Quote: The colour wheel itself is still present as a reaction class. Then it should be used, but on OS3.1 it would have been a BOOPSI gadget. Compare the two. Run Palette from OS4. Now close it and run it from WB3.1 in the Emulation drawer.

Sorry you confused me, I thought you were sayingh it was 3.5/9 thing didn't relise it was in 3.1 so H&P were nothing to do with it.

Comparing the two programs you can quickly see they've been completely rewritten with far more colours available to set (all 256 if you want) and what to do with those colours moved to GUI prefs. Why didn't they reinclude the colour wheel n the new version? I don't know but the colour wheel is inherently imprecise at lower sturations and there isn't much room in the GUI.

_________________
BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@broadblues

there are new FPGA based accellerators available soon (Cyclone 5) with 128 MB, 68k processor integrated (faster than any 68060) and RTG

Card specs are:

* very fast 68K CPU
* 128 MB DDR3 Fast-memory
* SD-card usable/bootable as IDE-device
* Network interface
* RTG Graphics Card (chunky/Hicolor/truecolor) with HDMI out

Price around 150 EUR as goal and available already in near future and for all models. That do I mean with real hardware. And that is just the start.

Ok you define 3.X not identical to 68k. I see 3.X as part of the 68k family and there is also Aros 68k and Amikit and the other distributions. Linux is indeed offtopic but it is not directly running Amiga software or based on the 3.X API, isn´t it? I mentioned Aros because the example with the screens was used to show that 68k (3.X) is inferior to 4.X and I say it is not. It depends what you use and where you use it. And with new FPGA based solutions the differences between 68k (real hardware) and PPC platforms will become smaller.

And yes I said I assume that it is better than 3.9 (I cannot compare it myself) but a newer product is certainly better than something of 2001. And both 3.X and 4.X user are happy with their decision. If 4.X is worth the price must everybody decide himself.

Caveats against DOpus? I know that some have but most of them (if you ask) have either never owned it or just installed it but DOpus is a complex product (expecially when used as WB replacement) and needs a lot of time to configure it. But even without experience most people have firm views about it. I do not need to say that I do not have caveats against DOpus.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Jun-2014 at 11:15 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Jun-2014 at 11:10 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Jun-2014 at 11:00 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Jun-2014 at 10:57 PM.

@OlafS25

Going FPGA in some ways is like belly flop, its fun while your in the air but once you hit the watter, you regret doing it.

There are no FPGA soft cores that can get in giga hertz territory, it has been taked about for years, look at x86 CPU's today are around 4ghz, AmigaONE-X1000 is 1.8Ghz.

The problem is FPGA can't compare with a real modern CPU, no offense but spending time supporting a CPU that has been abandoned for years does not make mutch sense to me, and the same goes for any 80's technology.

I understand people like classic Amiga for what they where, shore you can make floppy click sound generator to make them feal more at home, but its not it will never have dust and all smell from 80's and 90's.

There is only one way forward is better supported drivers for modern hardware.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

is Amiga not about fun and being different? At least I see it this way? What if we would get a new AmigaOS that has SMP, 64bit and MP. It would be the same as Windows and Mac but with only a fraction of the software. We must have cool and different offerings, not necessary better. What do you think?

And regarding X86 versus 68k and comparing GHz you should discuss it with Gunnar on amiga.org. He is convinced that 68k can compete with just Mhz and beat X86 and expecially PPC there. And FPGAs are not getting slower in future. At the moment a FPGA solution is slower than X1000 or a new PC but I do not think that it is necessary to outperform them to get a useful and enjoyable system.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 25-Jun-2014 at 11:41 PM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

is Amiga not about fun and being different?

Nope, world domination, work hard to stay on top

Quote:

At least I see it this way?

Well you can't get world domination by having fun can you doh

Quote:

What if we would get a new AmigaOS that has SMP, 64bit and MP. It would be the same as Windows and Mac but with only a fraction of the software.

True, but whit hardware support, better software can be written and used, and generally user experience will smoother and faster and better.

Quote:

We must have cool and different offerings, not necessary better. What do you think?

Yes and no, if there is feature that is really annoying every one hates it, then some thing should be done about it, even it we do copy some thing from Windows, Linux or MacOS, but best thing is come up whit unique better ideas, it does not be like it was in 60's, to preserve it as it has been at cost of not being user friendly.

Then you have features like screen dragging, assigns, and devices and API things that are unique and maybe better then what every one else has, its worth keeping.

Quote:

And regarding X86 versus 68k and comparing GHz you should discuss it with Gunnar on amiga.org. He is convinced that 68k can compete with just Mhz and beat X86 and especially PPC there. And FPGAs are not getting slower in future. At the moment a FPGA solution is slower than X1000 or a new PC but I do not think that it is necessary to outperform them to get a useful and enjoyable system.

He has been taking about that for years, nothing ha happened, fundamentally a FPGA is bunch of logic blocks that be connected into what ever you like, the fact that its re-configurable makes it more complicated then ASIC and there can't run at the same speeds, now its my understand that some modern CPU's has some FPGA prosperity’s about how they work, but they are tuned to a special usage unlike a FPGA.

Some people dream about a new 680x0, whit new instructions and so on, but if some one made processor like that none old program will be using any of the new instructions, and even if you did do that, what about SMP and other stuff, a old 68k program was never designed or compiled for SMP support, what I'm getting at is a new 68080 whit a new instructions set will be some thing different. I see it as possible split in the small Amiga classic community, if some small fraction of classic users should be interested in this.

With different binary’s for different CPU's and operating systems, will make user experience more complicated for the end user, knowing what works and not, some one who has worked the computers from 80's and 90's. who does not like change will not like that.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Jun-2014 at 12:44 AM.

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