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      /  Amiga's future, or lack of
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adrianbrowne 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 23-Jul-2014 22:06:28
#161 ]
Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2012
Posts: 41
From: Unknown

@BigGun

Depends if you think you can manufacture such a system to be sold at 50 dollars. It would surely sell at that price but I guess such a thing is not trivial to do.
Either way I am intriqued and support the apollo accellerator project by buying one and if we get a standalone system later I want one!

I would certainly do what I could to support such endeavours too.


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Hans 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 23-Jul-2014 22:22:54
#162 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Ask not what AmigaOS can do for you, but what you can do for AmigaOS.

OK, three people have commented on this already, but more can be said. My response: without source code, not much.

You (and everybody else who has responded to this sentence) are taking too narrow a view. An OS needs third-party software and enthusiasm to thrive. The more apps, games, utilities we have, the more valuable the OS becomes. So, we need third-party (i.e., non-OS) developers to write/port software. You don't need the OS' source code for that.

Users who can't code can support those who can. Doing creative things with existing apps, or just using them (and letting the developers and others know) also helps. Epsilon's blogs are examples of such enthusiastic support.

NutsAboutAmiga was trying to encourage people to do all of the above (go back and read his full post). It's a pity that the message was lost.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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asymetrix 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 4:56:20
#163 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 868
From: United Kingdom

@thread

The only way Amiga is to survive is by creating a better community.

#1 sub $100 USD (inc tax and postage) Amiga computer
#2 1000+ units over 3 year cycle.
#3 Create Amiga games developer suite
#4 Create repository for new Amiga games + trade
#5 Create colorful website full of code examples, plugins for game creation.

We need a whole games ecosystem, like the good ol days - what do you remember ? Playing games, games games !

Today 13 year olds cannot access an easy to use computer to learn programming something like AmosPro + Super-AGA-24bit + OOP.

We also need use scripting to help assist writing code for us.

Visual Basic started in beginning a scripting engine to create Windows Forms, the scripting engine creates the c/c++ code.

LUA + AmigaE would be very portable to create C code for games and apps.

But a NEW language like LOVE would be awesome.

http://love2d.org/wiki/Main_Page

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BigGun 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 5:00:46
#164 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

@Nameless

Quote:
What is the price of an FPGA that could hold both CPU + Amiga chipsets? Again, I assumed they were way too pricey to use in a sub $50 device, so figured it'd have to be ASIC. And that would require someone with deep pockets. Could an FPGA system be put together cheap enough?


As I said was talking about an FPGA based system.

Lets repeat the specs:
* 28nm FPGA
* Big enough to hold very fast 68K CPU und SAGA chipset
* 128 MB DDR3 memory
* HDTV out
* SDCard as HD
* USB for mouse and Joystick
* NIC



An FPGA based system has some major advantages.
1) We have technical all to make such a system
2) FPGA based systems could be updated, e.g. a fix could be added or cool new features
3) FPGA based system need less up front investment

_________________
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BigGun 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 5:49:20
#165 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

@asymetrix

Quote:
#2 1000+ units over 3 year cycle.



Hi Asymetrix,

I think a platform needs
1) new hardware and
2) new software - e.g. games.

Many great games can be done with for not high end hardware.
E.g games like DIABLO 1/2, STAR-CRAFT, SIM-City ...
http://www.greyhound-data.com/gunnar/robinhood/
http://www.greyhound-data.com/gunnar/northland/

Duting the times of the A500 many new games came out regularly...

The reason for this was that the A500 was sold many times - it made good sense to bring out games for it...

There is certainly something like a critical mass for an ecosystem.
If a system is over this critical mass enough people are in to create new stuff themselves and to motivate people to develop or port software to it.
Today the AMIGA is below this critical mass.

I doubt that seeling 1000 devices will change anything.
What number is needed to give the AMIGA a push again?
Selling 100,000 devices would certainly change something.

_________________
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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 6:40:29
#166 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@sub $100

I do not see "computer" available below $300.

So, I'm 100% sure it's not possible to implement sub $100 Amiga "computer" on our niche either.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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agami 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 6:47:40
#167 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@thinkchip @thread

Hi. I am agami, or rather my Amiga forums handle is agami. I was exited about the Amiga the first time I read about it in a computer magazine and coveted the machine until I finally got my first Amiga (500) and I have loved the Amiga ever since and I will continue to love it until I die, or forget about it due to Alzheimer’s disease.

I also like and respect all of you on this and other forums regardless of your age, your particular Amiga computer use, or your Amiga NG affiliation. Sometimes some of you may state things in our Amiga forums that annoy me, but such is the nature of an open forum. It wouldn’t be all that much fun if all of us agreed and said the same things all the time.

Though I am not the oldest amongst the Amiga forum community I would be in the top 10% of oldest, and whilst age doesn’t guarantee wisdom, it more often than not equals wisdom when compared to those who are younger. And that wisdom helps me put things into context and understand the various viewpoints of the many users no matter how ridiculous they may sound to me. As some of what I say will no doubt sound completely ridiculous to some of you.

The Amiga has No Future
Actually, the Amiga had no future the second that cockamamie legal dispute started. I have seen law suits bring strong and well established business to their knees, and for a wounded and struggling enterprise such as the "Amiga’s 4th coming" it was only ever going to be the beginning of the end. A technology business needs capital, but what is even more critical is time; 4 months of wasted time can be like 24 months in other industries, and if you waste 4 years of time you may as well close up shop.

These companies fought for so many years that they forgot the substance of what they were fighting over. What exactly did they win? All of the trademarks and patents mean nothing if there are no consumers to capitalise on those. None of them seemed to care about the negative effect such a law suit would have on the user base. A user base which at the time was already shrinking rapidly. People want to use the computers they enjoy to use whilst interacting with the rest of the computer using world. That became harder and harder to do on an Amiga, or even an AmigaOne with OS4.0 so users moved to other platforms.

Many of you refer to this odd Amiga Classic + NG ecosystem as a hobby. But because of the commercial aspects surrounding the NG part it is unlike any hobby out there. Sure, people restore old cars as a hobby and there are companies out there making money from selling hard to find parts and consumables; That’s the classic part. But there isn’t a company out there trying to sell these people a new 2012 model car, in 2014, with the parts from a 2004 rotary engine car, with not all pistons firing, with the upholstery and the car stereo from an ‘80s car, and expecting the car restoration hobbyists to pay the price of a brand new Mercedes because it has a badge proclaiming StudebakerTwo.

Keeping an old Commodore Amiga running is a hobby. Messing around with open source operating systems and software like AROS can be seen as a hobby. Yes, I am defining what a hobby is, I’m using the Reasonable Person test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person). The other thing, the thing everyone refuses to acknowledge as good intentions with less than ideal outcomes, is not a hobby. It is an attempt at a legitimate business venture. Dreamed up by Greater Fools for Greater Fools. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory)

What these 2010 people didn’t see is the same thing Amiga (Amino/KMOS) and Hyperion didn’t see in 2006; The Amiga has no future. To much time was wasted, too much ground was lost, and there weren’t enough users out there for a sustainable business. Interestingly enough, Hyperion was one of the 2006 people and also one of the 2010 people.

Living in Australia amidst a meagre population of ~22 million I am exposed to the drawbacks of small market economies on a daily basis. It is often frustrating , but from a business pragmatism point of view I see how things are not so simple. So if 22 million isn’t enough how much could one seriously do with 5,000 - 10,000. If the potential Amiga NG market were a species, biologists would classify it as Critically Endangered.

So whilst I sincerely admire what Trevor and his colleagues and partners have brought to market, and I admire each an every one of you who have purchased an AmigaOne X1000. I admire you for these actions which have been born from a sense of nostalgia and devotion to a platform and an idea of computing that should never be lost. But I can’t admire you when you write that this is the beginning of an Amiga comeback, that if enough people bought an X1000 then we’d get all this cool software. Do you really believe that if somehow tomorrow there were 10,000 X1000 users that the software situation would be wildly different?

The Amiga has no future.

_________________
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Nameless 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 7:11:11
#168 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Nov-2008
Posts: 315
From: Unknown

@BigGun

Yep, just asking if those specs can even be done for under $50. I haven't kept track of FPGA prices at all. If so, no need for an ASIC, as the cost to make one tends to be a deal-breaker for these types of ideas.

Wonder if wifi could be added cheaply too? I realize browsing may not exactly work so great, but AROS has a workable browser now, doesn't it? if the 68K isn't too dinky, it may allow some simple browsing, or the ability to download adfs. Which is another thing that could match up well with such a system ... a little 'app' store, full of old software in .adf form.

Market it as a retro game machine, especially around the holidays, and it'll sell. Especially if people could download hundreds of old amiga games for free right into the thing. If compatibility with Xbox360 /PS3 controllers could be added, even better.

Last edited by Nameless on 24-Jul-2014 at 07:17 AM.

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Nameless 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 7:14:31
#169 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Nov-2008
Posts: 315
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

Depends entirely what your definition of a 'computer' is. If you mean a full fledged system, hardrive, keyboard, mouse, and so on... doubtful.

But a Raspberry Pi is a computer, just a scaled back one. The only mass market appeal with a cheap Amiga would be to retro people, so a cheap 68K FPGA system would be fine. It's not like anyone is going to use it as their main computing device.

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QuBe 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 7:34:05
#170 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1075
From: Dunes of Uridia

@BigGun

Hmm, I am inclined to think that if a super charged Amiga FPGA-based classic-esque machine were to be released (with upgradable soft cores and SAGA support), we could see a new breed of freshly minted classic retro games. Well, that would be the hope.

The idea is not only to have a classic super charged Amiga that can be a great retro games machine, run unbelievable 060 SAGA demo's and use productivity software, but also allow for new games to be produced using the true power of the new platform.

It would be great to then get the AmiStore frame work converted to run on the super classic, where users can buy/download games/demo's etc. Create a retro ecosystem.

Imagine logging on, downloading and running a scene magazine directly from the Classic Ami Store for example; or having access to a rich collection of games and applications all downloadable from a dedicated online resource. Easy to use, where developers can tout their wares easily and a flexible platform...

Q!

"i am home"

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 8:33:56
#171 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1770
From: Unknown

Retro yes,
But Amiga only would not work. This is why I go a step further with indieGO!-Appstore to Combine all Systems in one.

Sub 100$ Amiga. Well wait a month.
FPGA? No since it doesn't allow to run modern Software. ARM yes, since it is cheap and it evolves year by year dramatically.
Check Meizu MX3 phone. It has a Quad A15 + a Quad A7 CPU in a f***ing mobile phone. What are we talking here? Big numbers? Well for me it is only possible with a Phone and a NFC-Docking-Station, so at home the phone becomes your console or Desktop Environment. On the go you have Touchscreen.

All that can come true end of this year (assimilating available phones). With Amiga-brand in 2016. That's my plan : )

_________________
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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 8:54:18
#172 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@Nameless

"It's not like anyone is going to use it as their main computing device. "

There are Amigans that do just that.

Some people play with interesting gadgets, like RPi.

But for most the pentium2 @ 300Mhz caliber CPU performance is not enough.
4000MIPS + 2GB + RadeonHD starts to be usefull for a lot of more people. (this is the range I advocate for, as below eur300 full entry system)

Then there are power users. I would leave that to a-eon.


@thread
Poll time?

Who uses some Amiga-like device as their main computing device?
-AOS3 system
-AOS3 emulated system
-AOS4 system
-MorphOS system
-AROS system
-AEROS system
-other (please specify as a post to thread)

(I personally want to use Amigalike as my main system... I actually am very close to that)

Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Jul-2014 at 09:07 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Jul-2014 at 09:06 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Jul-2014 at 08:54 AM.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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KimmoK 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 9:10:47
#173 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@agami

"Do you really believe that if somehow tomorrow there were 10,000 X1000 users that the software situation would be wildly different?"

At late 90's it was said that you can do profitable SW for Amiga niche if you get more than 3000 copies sold.

One might not need many tens of thousands of (AmigaOS+MorphOS+AROS) users when some SW work starts to become profitable.

So, IMHO, as "not having future" I think the situation is not worse than 10 years ago.
(more usefull HW is available, OSs evolve, SW is released,....)
So I could pretty safely bet that in near future Amiga "has future" like it has been during past few years, or very slightly better (or worse).

(bigger improvements would need big investments / sudden fast progress, declination would need all flavours to suddenly fail)

Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Jul-2014 at 09:15 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Jul-2014 at 09:11 AM.

_________________
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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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matthey 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 9:29:35
#174 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1968
From: Kansas

Quote:

BigGun wrote:
I doubt that selling 1000 devices will change anything.
What number is needed to give the AMIGA a push again?
Selling 100,000 devices would certainly change something.


I think selling 10,000 units in a year would breath new life into the classic Amiga. It may not guarantee the critical mass needed for healthy development but more units could be sold if better upgrades continue to appear. Communities and markets have to be built and Rome wasn't built in a day.

Quote:

agami wrote:
Many of you refer to this odd Amiga Classic + NG ecosystem as a hobby. But because of the commercial aspects surrounding the NG part it is unlike any hobby out there. Sure, people restore old cars as a hobby and there are companies out there making money from selling hard to find parts and consumables; That’s the classic part. But there isn’t a company out there trying to sell these people a new 2012 model car, in 2014, with the parts from a 2004 rotary engine car, with not all pistons firing, with the upholstery and the car stereo from an ‘80s car, and expecting the car restoration hobbyists to pay the price of a brand new Mercedes because it has a badge proclaiming StudebakerTwo.


I own a 1993 Mazda RX-7 with a Wankel rotary engine and no pistons ever fire for me. I can disconnect half my spark plug wires and you wouldn't even notice any loss of smoothness when the turbos kick in and the engine takes off from 3000RPM to 9000RPM where it's still pulling. There are faster cars today but few can match the nimbleness, handling and breaking of this lightweight. It's one of the most fun and unique cars to ever drive. I've fixed it up and modernized it some but the basic 20+ year old technology still amazes people today, including people that have driven Porches, Ferraris and Corvettes . There aren't very many new cars with new technology that I would take in trade. People often move on faster than technology. Unfortunately, many of them are missing out. We just need to show them what they are missing.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 9:51:32
#175 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

+1

I agree there, the situation has improved in the last 3 years (since I started to become interested again) with new hardware, improvements at all platforms

@Pascal

I do not see the opposition to ARM or other platforms. Not everyone will be interested to buy a FPGA based device, it is certainly very interesting to former amigans (expecially if the price is low) and some techno nerds who are interested in alternate solutions but not for the typical smartphone average me-too user. So I think there will be a market for both expecially if 68k software works in it.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 9:56:17
#176 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@KimmoK

I think if we want new software (expecially games) we must make it easy to support the platforms, f.e. porting opensource 3D engines or motivate commercial engines to be ported so that supporting means just recompiling and at the same time selling your software for the mobile market and the big desktop platforms. Applications to be ported is much more difficult, perhaps get opensource applications but I doubt that companies can be motivated to support a niche platform. Windows is dominating there everything.

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number6 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 11:35:10
#177 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@agami

Quote:
4 months of wasted time can be like 24 months in other industries, and if you waste 4 years of time you may as well close up shop.


I realize that's a general statement, but newer members may draw a line to more recent events, which would be inaccurate, even in the words of the AmigaOS team.

The killer was spending years trying to figure out how to fix broken h/w, time that could have been spent on development. That's not the case now thankfully.

As far as your query about the lawsuit...this is about licensing in the minds of the parent companies. Regardless of the results, it was still thought to be a means to producing revenue without additional investment. When you look at it that way, then it's not about what the parent companies think about the name, so much as whether potential licensees believe the name still has value to them.

#6


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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 13:29:16
#178 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12796
From: Norway

@Overflow

Quote:
Im a bit curious if demo coders or coders in general will find Classic accelerators intresting to use.


Well part of fun for demo coders is to prove that they can do the same effects on a old Amiga as they can on a PC.
And so I do not think they be interested in any upgrades.

Super-AGA with RTG/P96 modes make no sense to a demo coder, they use AGA because thats what find chalaning, the most impressive demos that are being made now is on C64 this days.

Anyway the demo sense is almost dead this days, more and more computer gatherings is focusing on E-Sports.

Quote:
Ive gotten the sense from Britelite that hes not overly intrested in NG because being able to create amazing production on quite limited hardware platforms. With that in mind, I do wonder if Britelite (and other sceners) will take advantage of the Classic boost or not


Thats unlikely as they not trying to show you what Amiga platform can do, they are trying to show you what they can do on stock Amiga1200 with AGA graphics.

I can only hope with Super-AGA that more people pressure this demo groups to make RTG/P96 fremdly demos.

Anyway I'm not shure that going RTG/P96 will automatically increases screen resolution, normally doubling screen resolution will require 4 times the CPU power to produce the effects in the DEMOS.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 13:49:01
#179 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12796
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
I think if we want new software (expecially games)


Well people have games on tablets/phons/smart tv's in the web browsers.
People don't need Amiga to play games, any device that has a CPU and a screen can do that.

Quote:
we must make it easy to support the platforms,


Who is we, do you have time for it and who is going to keep the development going by funding your work time.

Quote:
f.e. porting opensource 3D engines or motivate commercial engines to be ported so that supporting means just recompiling and at the same time selling your software for the mobile market and the big desktop platforms.


There is no market (users) so way should they be interested in doing that.
And FPGA based hardware will be too slow for most modern games anyway.

Quote:
Applications to be ported is much more difficult, perhaps get opensource applications but I doubt that companies can be motivated to support a niche platform. Windows is dominating there everything.


True.

But on the other hand, the PC market has been also getting smaller, more and more people are spending there time with Android / Ipads.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Jul-2014 at 02:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Jul-2014 at 01:56 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Jul-2014 at 01:55 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga's future, or lack of
Posted on 24-Jul-2014 13:51:39
#180 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12796
From: Norway

@OlafS25

If you can create 5$ machine that has better OS and more games, and has better CPU and faster RAM,and can be every thing at once. I'm shore you be market leader in no time

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