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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
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Trewq 
Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 6-Aug-2014 17:54:58
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2012
Posts: 205
From: Unknown

Note te self. look in utilities.. (hardrive fixed)

So the last question remains.

What is the fastest/advanced file system on AmigaOS 4.1 ?

FFS ? (DOS \07)
SFS ? (/00 or /02 ? Can anyone explain me this ?)
PPS ?

original post

Hello all,

My OS4 machine crashed when running OWB 1.23 which writes/ reads (?) frequently to the harddrive.


From then the partition OWB was stored doesn't stop validating.
The main AmigaOS partition on the same harddrive isn't affected but it does take twice as long to boot now.
(after that the perfromance is normal again)


The error I get during the validating progress is that a block is used twice.

Is there any Harddrive diagnose and/or repair tool that works with OS4/fast FFS or should I format the drive ?

If I should format the disk, should I go with SFS (/00 or /02 ?) over fast FFS for improved performance ?

Last edited by Trewq on 06-Aug-2014 at 06:53 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. HD Diagnose/repair tools for OS4?
Posted on 6-Aug-2014 18:03:11
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Trewq

Quote:
Is there any Harddrive diagnose and/or repair tool that works with OS4/fast FFS or should I format the drive ?


There is PartitionWizzard, but I don´t know, if it is stable enough. I recommend backup data and format it in SFS (/02 allows files bigger than 4 GB but isn´t bootable, I think).

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pavlor 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 6-Aug-2014 19:05:56
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@Trewq

Quote:
What is the fastest/advanced file system on AmigaOS 4.1 ?


As I wrote in post above, I recommend SFS.
SFS (/00) supports partitions up to 128 GB and files up to 4 GB, it can be used as bootable partition.
SFS2 supports partitions bigger than 128 GB (there is some limit) and files bigger than 4 GB, it can´t be used for bootable partition (I think).

FFS is slow (and likes validating
PFS is not supported by OS4

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eliyahu 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 6-Aug-2014 19:06:03
#4 ]
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Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1957
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@Trewq

use SFS/02 for best performance, unless you're willing to use the somewhat faster JXFS. i use JXFS, but there are no recovery tools whatever for it, so if the partition goes titsup, so does your data. i'd stay away from FFS -- not exactly the speediest of beasties.

edit: just found this old thread on SFS versus PFS on AOS4.

-- eliyahu

Last edited by eliyahu on 06-Aug-2014 at 07:31 PM.

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Ancalimon 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 6-Aug-2014 21:57:13
#5 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 433
From: Istanbul

ffs is not suitable for using with harddrives. I don't even get why they updated it for AmigaOS4.

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lylehaze 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 7-Aug-2014 3:25:38
#6 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1142
From: North Florida - Big Bend area.

@Trewq

I am no expert at all, but there's a story I'd like to share..
Long long ago, when Workbench versions started with a '2',
and I had an external Hard Drive on my Amiga1000.. I made a
programming error that caused the code to open a file on the
hard drive and write continuously, forever..

Once I realized it, I was unable to stop or break the program, and
knowing that it "might not be a good idea", I powered the machine
down while this file was still open.

When I rebooted, it was unable to mount the drive, and it looked
like I might lose ALL my work.. Years of personal work and six
full months of contract work as well. All for one stupid mistake.

I had no backups, I had no safety net at all. The Drive was a single
partition FFS/07 if I remember correctly.

I was absolutely devastated. I walked away and was not real happy
with myself about anything.. but I was so upset, I forgot to turn off
the machine first.. it just kept trying to boot up, and each time it
would just fail and reboot again, and again, and again...

What I didn't know is that every time it went walking through the disk
structure and finding something broken, it would fix or remove that
one small fault and try again. I had no idea that it was capable of even
TRYING to repair itself..

When I went back a while later, the machine had (eventually) revcovered
and booted into my usual workbench. I think there was some message
about one file that was unrecoverable and deleted.

SO say what you will about FFS, but when I made the stupidest mistake
in many years, it was able to recover gracefully, all by itself.

It was a long time ago, I'm sure some of the details are a bit foggy.
But here's some thoughts for you:

JXFS is not supported. If you use it, if it fails, there is nobody to blame.
Also some software seems to have issues with it.

Modern hard drives are HUGE compared to what an Amiga needs. Make
multiple partitions.

Failed hardware might take out ALL partitions on a drive, have a second
drive too.

Browsers need a big cache, and they drive it hard. Make a separate
partition JUST for your browser cache. If it fails, you only lost the cache
and nothing else.

If something is valuable,save it to two physically different drives..
And save it to a Network drive, and save it to a flash drive, and save
it to the cloud, and find a backup partner who will hold your backups
offsite.. multiple copies on multiple types of media are your best protection.

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PR 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 7-Aug-2014 12:23:11
#7 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1961
From: Suomi-Finland

My Best experience was PFS in the A1200 and still is. Now it's free.

In the XE there is Smart filesystem as recommended in the boot drive and JFX in the rest. Never had any trouble but don't count on my word.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 7-Aug-2014 14:08:06
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12796
From: Norway

@PR

I only use SFS/02 and works perfect, no need to use anything else.

Quote:
My Best experience was PFS in the A1200 and still is. Now it's free.


There was some talks about porting PFS to AmigaOS4.1, I'm not sure whats going on with that, anyway PFS does not support some of the new DOS packets.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Aug-2014 at 02:10 PM.

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Chris_Y 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 7-Aug-2014 14:26:05
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Beds, UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

There was some talks about porting PFS to AmigaOS4.1, I'm not sure whats going on with that, anyway PFS does not support some of the new DOS packets.


I'd jump on PFS if it was available, I've heard nothing but praise for it since forever.

The new DOS packets can be added later, get what's there working first.
(although I just found this: http://sourceforge.net/p/pfs-amiga/code/136/tree//PFS/branches/PFS-experimental/dd_funcs.c?diff=517eb7192718467af2a388b0:135 so the new DOS packets are in, to some extent)

Last edited by Chris_Y on 07-Aug-2014 at 02:34 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 7-Aug-2014 14:36:44
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12796
From: Norway

@Chris_Y

Quote:
I'd jump on PFS if it was available, I've heard nothing but praise for it since forever.


Then jump on it. anyway it might be that Salass00 is working on it, you should maybe send a PM to him fist, no need to be working on the same thing.

http://www.amigans.net/modules/xforum/viewtopic.php?post_id=92218#forumpost92218

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jPV 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 7-Aug-2014 14:49:08
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Apr-2005
Posts: 809
From: .fi

@Chris_Y

Quote:

I'd jump on PFS if it was available, I've heard nothing but praise for it since forever.


I guess I can say then that it's the only filesystem which I've got totally messed up to unfixable state :) Did that twice in a row and then I changed back to SFS. SFS has messed my files only once :)

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Chris_Y 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 7-Aug-2014 15:23:36
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Beds, UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

I meant "use it" not "develop it".

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klx300r 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 8-Aug-2014 2:14:14
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3833
From: Toronto, Canada

@lylehaze

great story and even better advice!

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Deniil715 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 31-Aug-2014 10:22:14
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4236
From: Sweden

@lylehaze

Quote:
When I went back a while later, the machine had (eventually) revcovered and booted into my usual workbench. I think there was some message about one file that was unrecoverable and deleted.

SO say what you will about FFS, but when I made the stupidest mistake in many years, it was able to recover gracefully, all by itself.


So do you try to say that FFS is best because you almost lost all your data, but eventually didn't after all?? And that kind of recovery was Not graceful.

With all the other FSs this is a no-brainer. Just reboot and the file would be gone, or empty or at the size it was at the reboot. The file system never breaks because of writing during a reboot with PFS, SFS ir JXFS.

Other than that I agree that one should have backups and more than one partition. But you should never use FFS on OS4, or OS3 for that matter. Use PFS on OS3 and SFS/0 on OS4 normal use, and SFS/2 for huge storage partitions and 4G+ files.

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Daedalus 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 31-Aug-2014 12:45:52
#15 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@lylehaze

I'm with Deniil here. It's great that you got your data back, but the only reason you had that problem in the first place is because of the shortcomings of FFS. If you had been using SFS or PFS your computer would have rebooted just fine the next time - the half-written file would be lost but that's all.

Very good advice about backups though!

Last edited by Daedalus on 31-Aug-2014 at 12:46 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 31-Aug-2014 15:49:28
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Ancalimon

Because it is the offical AmigaOS filesystem and didn't have a replacement. All others are contributions.

It is also one of the few to support variable block sizes. And a max partition size of 128TB. Pretty good for a floppy filesystem.

The FS structures differ sligtly as well. They didn't add a journal or remove validation errors but they did add support for read and write-through cache. Which was a bit hard to activate.

Last edited by Hypex on 31-Aug-2014 at 03:52 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 31-Aug-2014 16:02:11
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@lylehaze

Quote:
I made a programming error that caused the code to open a file on the
hard drive and write continuously, forever..


Sounds like you accidently write a virus...

I take it that even when it ran out of room it still wouldn't matter?

Quote:
had no idea that it was capable of even


Yep, the validation process. Usually the reason my Workbench delays in booting up sometimes.

Quote:
SO say what you will about FFS, but when I made the stupidest mistake


I agree. I don't know if it's CrossDOS related, but I once pulled a USB stick from my A1 after copying a file and waiting a while, then put it into a PC and the filestructure was destroyed. If something haappens to FFS it's likely to be recoverable or at least repairable. I've never seen FFS become totally destroyed from a simple write like FAT has.

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itix 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 31-Aug-2014 16:27:02
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@Hypex

You can recover FAT.

http://www.diskinternals.com/fat-recovery/

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olsen 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 31-Aug-2014 17:39:07
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Posts: 774
From: Germany

@Ancalimon

Quote:

Ancalimon wrote:
ffs is not suitable for using with harddrives.

I beg to differ. The FFS works with every type of storage medium, it just doesn't work very well in terms of performance and it does not make good use of large storage volumes. In so many words, the design of the FFS is showing its age.

In spite of these shortcomings, the FFS is well-supported by data recovery software. Other file systems handle the recovery better, and with better performance, but the FFS still seems to be the only file system around for which comprehensive repair tools exist that can fix problems or recover the data.

Which means that with the FFS you will probably succeed in repairing or recovering your data if things go south. This feature is offset by the poor performance and other shortcomings.

If you can, do not use FFS on a modern hard disk drive. Choose something else, and make frequent backups. If you can't make frequent backups, you might want to reconsider your options.

Quote:

I don't even get why they updated it for AmigaOS4.

There are two main reasons.

The first is that the FFS enables data interchange: no matter if you use a disk formatted on a 68k machine, AmigaOS4 or MorphOS, the FFS can both read and write it. This may not sound much, but it's easier to transfer large amounts of data by hard disk than through the network.

The second reason is that the FFS is an operating system component which cannot be easily replaced. This may sound strange, but the default ROM file system has to be able to do things which no other file system is required to. There has to be a fall-back if no other file system can be used, for example. The FFS also implements the full set of file system functions the operating system is specified to use. As far as I know no other file system out there can claim that dubious honour. Lastly, the FFS is designed to service several concurrent processes reading/writing data at the same time, which is also something no other file system is required to.

Last edited by olsen on 31-Aug-2014 at 05:39 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Harddrive validating like a mad man. FFS vs SFS vs PPS
Posted on 1-Sep-2014 2:45:52
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@itix

Perhaps they should include this in Windows instead of their tool which was useless for serious corruption, even if it only took seconds to break.

Apart from that I didn't have this installed in Windows nor do I wish to pay $80 to recover a small flash drive. I just reformatted it. No permanent backups are kept on flash drive.

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