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Hypex 
First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 15-Sep-2014 14:17:30
#1 ]
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Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

I've been wondering what computer had the first lossy compression format? I know the format is more important than whatever computer it was created on, but I'm an Amiga guy and I like it to be first.

Lossy compression is not something to be really proud of, but I was impressed when I found out the Amiga 8SVX format supports compression and lossy compression at that.

Which was Fibonacci-delta data compression offering a default 50% ratio on data. Since it halved each byte to a nibble. Though it seemed strange to me to base the compression on the Fibonacci number sequence which I read was related to breeding rabbits. What did rabbits have to do with audio?

I never saw it in widespread use. Perhaps it sounded worse than an 8SVX vocal sample with a terrible sample rate. Too many games had that.

Anyway, where ever the Amiga fits in, it could play lossy audio files before the PC even knew what an mp3 was.

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SoundSquare 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 15-Sep-2014 14:28:19
#2 ]
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Joined: 31-Jan-2006
Posts: 253
From: Unknown

from Wikipedia's article about MP3 :

"The immediate predecessors of MP3 were "Optimum Coding in the Frequency Domain" (OCF),[23] and Perceptual Transform Coding (PXFM).[24] These two codecs, along with block-switching contributions from Thomson-Brandt, were merged into a codec called ASPEC, which was submitted to MPEG, and which won the quality competition, but that was mistakenly rejected as too complex to implement. The first practical implementation of an audio perceptual coder (OCF) in hardware (Krasner's hardware was too cumbersome and slow for practical use), was an implementation of a psychoacoustic transform coder based on Motorola 56000 DSP chips.

As a doctoral student at Germany's University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Karlheinz Brandenburg began working on digital music compression in the early 1980s, focusing on how people perceive music. He completed his doctoral work in 1989.[25] MP3 is directly descended from OCF and PXFM, representing the outcome of the collaboration of Brandenburg - working as a postdoc at AT&T-Bell Labs with James D. (JJ) Johnston of AT&T-Bell Labs - with the Fraunhofer Institut for Integrated Circuits, Erlangen, with relatively minor contributions from the MP2 branch of psychoacoustic sub-band coders. In 1990, Brandenburg became an assistant professor at Erlangen-Nuremberg. While there, he continued to work on music compression with scientists at the Fraunhofer Society (in 1993 he joined the staff of the Fraunhofer Institute).[25]"

so no, amiga wasn't the first.

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Daytona675x 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 15-Sep-2014 14:58:23
#3 ]
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Joined: 5-Jan-2011
Posts: 491
From: Germany

@Hypex
What about HAM? Probably the Amiga even qualifies for being the first computer with hardware-support for that lossy gfx format?

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Chris_Y 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 15-Sep-2014 17:39:45
#4 ]
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Joined: 21-Jun-2003
Posts: 3203
From: Beds, UK

@Hypex

Quote:
Which was Fibonacci-delta data compression offering a default 50% ratio on data. Since it halved each byte to a nibble. Though it seemed strange to me to base the compression on the Fibonacci number sequence which I read was related to breeding rabbits. What did rabbits have to do with audio?


The Fibonacci sequence involves adding numbers. 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21 etc (each number is the sum of the two preceeding numbers). I don't know what it has to do with compression (maybe you can store an 8 and a 5 as 13 or something? Although the "delta" part would suggest it's something to do with the differences between the numbers rather than the numbers themselves), but then I've never really understood what prime numbers have to do with encryption either.

Quote:
I never saw it in widespread use. Perhaps it sounded worse than an 8SVX vocal sample with a terrible sample rate. Too many games had that.


I converted something to it once as back in the floppy days I was desperate for space. ISTR it didn't sound great!

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Aslak3 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 15-Sep-2014 18:06:04
#5 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

@Daytona675x

Quote:

Daytona675x wrote:
@Hypex
What about HAM? Probably the Amiga even qualifies for being the first computer with hardware-support for that lossy gfx format?


Err no. HAM just looks bad. That's nothing at all related to a format being lossy. It's like making a picture format which only supports a single image, a black screen for example, and calling it lossy.

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Kronos 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 15-Sep-2014 20:02:56
#6 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@Aslak3

HAM allowed 12Bit worth of colors (4096) to be stored in 6Bit, thereby offering 50% "compression". Wether it looked good or bad mostly depends on the picture used and how smart the creator was about choisung the 16 fixed colors.

Result still look much better than anything else in 6Bit in 1985.

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itix 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 15-Sep-2014 20:57:54
#7 ]
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Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@Kronos

But HAM is not lossy compression format.

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Daytona675x 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 8:51:14
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2011
Posts: 491
From: Germany

@itix
I guess that depends on the definition

Take a 4096 color picture, run it through a HAM converter and what you get is a lossy compressed variant of that input gfx.

Sound like the same situation as in:
Take a WAV, run it through a MP3 converter and what you get is a lossy compressed variant of that input sound.

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Britelite 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 9:37:07
#9 ]
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Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@Daytona675x

Quote:

Take a 4096 color picture, run it through a HAM converter and what you get is a lossy compressed variant of that input gfx.

In that case I can take a 16 color picture, run it through a c64 hires converter and call that a lossy compressed image.

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Britelite 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 9:40:38
#10 ]
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Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
I've been wondering what computer had the first lossy compression format? I know the format is more important than whatever computer it was created on, but I'm an Amiga guy and I like it to be first.

You could call adpcm a lossy compression, and that's from the 70's. So no, Amiga was in no way first.

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Daytona675x 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 9:48:09
#11 ]
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Joined: 5-Jan-2011
Posts: 491
From: Germany

@Britelite
Quote:
In that case I can take a 16 color picture, run it through a c64 hires converter and call that a lossy compressed image.

Sure As being said: a matter of definition.

Just checked Wikipedias definiton on that term:
Quote:
In information technology, "lossy" compression is the class of data encoding methods that uses inexact approximations (or partial data discarding) for representing the content that has been encoded.


Well, if you take that definition then I'd say HAM's algorithm is well qualified.

Last edited by Daytona675x on 16-Sep-2014 at 09:52 AM.

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Britelite 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 10:10:21
#12 ]
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Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@Daytona675x

Quote:

Just checked Wikipedias definiton on that term:
Quote:
In information technology, "lossy" compression is the class of data encoding methods that uses inexact approximations (or partial data discarding) for representing the content that has been encoded.


Well, if you take that definition then I'd say HAM's algorithm is well qualified.

In that case it's also far from being the first ;)

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broadblues 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 11:27:46
#13 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4446
From: Portsmouth England

@Daytona675x

Quote:

Well, if you take that definition then I'd say HAM's algorithm is well qualified.


HAM is not lossy, it's away of displayng an image on certain hardware. If you draw an image in PPaint in HAM mode then save the bitmap data and reload it you get exactly the same image.

JPEG is lossy if take a an image and encode it as jpeg you will never get the same image back (ignoring the special non lossy mode.

The important difference is that JPEG MPG et al are never the original data, you don't create a jpeg image in Paint program or on a camera you encode an existing image.




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Daytona675x 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 12:03:01
#14 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2011
Posts: 491
From: Germany

@broadblues
And if I use Brilliance instead and edit in 24bit color mode, and finally decide to store it as HAM, then it is pretty much the same scenario as if I had saved it as JPG. And just as if I had stored a JPG I won't get back the original 24bit data. Smells like a lossy format :)

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Britelite 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 12:07:23
#15 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 295
From: Finland

@Daytona675x

Quote:

And if I use Brilliance instead and edit in 24bit color mode, and finally decide to store it as HAM, then it is pretty much the same scenario as if I had saved it as JPG. And just as if I had stored a JPG I won't get back the original 24bit data. Smells like a lossy format :)

Well, same applies to saving your 24bit data in a non-lossy 16 color picture format. The fact that your source image isn't directly compatible with the destination format doesn't make the format itself lossy.

EDIT: Just to make it clear. Take an image, save it as a jpeg (file1). Load up file1 and save it again as a jpeg (file2). File1 and File2 will not be identical, hence the compression is lossy.

Take an HAM-image, save it as an HAM-image (file1). Load up file1 and save it again as a HAM-image (file2). File1 and File2 are identical, hence not lossy.

Last edited by Britelite on 16-Sep-2014 at 12:13 PM.

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Leo 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 12:31:42
#16 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

To get back to the subject, if we stick to Wikipedia, Amiga isn't the first one, even if HAM was lossy. End of discussion ;)

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Hypex 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 14:36:07
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@SoundSquare

Okay then, so what computer had it first?

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Hypex 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 14:41:12
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Daytona675x

Quote:
What about HAM?


For one thing, it is a video format, not an audio format. Another is that it is a hardware bitmap format, so rather advanced above a file format.

But, yes I agree it stands out as a hardware format. I'm not aware of anything to compare it to. AFAIK even hardware MPEG decoders render into a framebuffer.

BTW, were there lots of butterflies around when you replied? Seems to have created an effect.

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Hypex 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 15:10:17
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Chris_Y

Quote:
Although the "delta" part would suggest it's something to do with the differences between the numbers rather than the numbers themselves),


That would be it. The Abacus Music book has a decoder in BASIC I think it was. So there is an initial byte, and all the other samples must be built of that, using a 16 indexed table of those numbers. 8 negitive, 8 positive. Derived from the following nibbles.

Like so:
http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Devices_Manual_guide/node02D6.html

Quote:
I've never really understood what prime numbers have to do with encryption either.


Nor have I. I haven't looked into it but somehow they favour numbers that can't be divisible into others. And all those prime numbers looked a bit odd to me.

Quote:
ISTR it didn't sound great!


LOL. I also found another. Exponential data compression. I discovered last night. But I can find even less information on that.

Last edited by Hypex on 17-Sep-2014 at 03:57 AM.

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Hypex 
Re: First computer with lossy compression format?
Posted on 16-Sep-2014 15:11:08
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Leo

Quote:
HAM was lossy. End of discussion ;)


Good points.

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