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/  Forum Index
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      /  Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
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PosterThread
WolfToTheMoon 
Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 4-Oct-2014 18:13:36
#1 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8588/armv8-goes-embedded-with-applied-micros-helix-socs

Quote:
As part of this deal,
all product lines based on the PowerPC architecture
are being migrated to ARMv8 under the HeliX family



Which means no new CPUs for Acube's line, they'll have to switch to Freescale.

On another note, these new 64 bit ARM CPUs from Applied Mixro are now entirely suited to some desktop computing(17 X PCIe 3.0 lanes)

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BigD 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 4-Oct-2014 23:16:34
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7305
From: UK

@WolfToTheMoon

Life will go on. If the PPC CPUs dry up then AmigaOS will move to ARM. Until that day we'll buy our CPUs from Freescale or IBM.

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Hypex 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 5-Oct-2014 15:09:21
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Or just run OS4 emulated on WinUAE. I knew that day would come. And even more warning signs are here.

All we need is an ARM with a PPC emulation mode and we are all set.

I remember years ago, it may have a CU Amiga letter, a person wrote in and said if something isn't done there will be a PC with Amiga emulation. Well things didn't exactly happen that way, there was never an Intel CPU that could emulate a 68K or a VGA chipset that could do AGA, but there was a software emulator. And so here we are again.

Last edited by Hypex on 06-Oct-2014 at 02:14 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 5-Oct-2014 17:34:13
#4 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7305
From: UK

@Hypex

It's just one supplier so it's not the end of PPC yet but once multi core SMP is finished for AmigaOS a native ARM version should be started at least. Just as Apple had an Intel version of OS X up their sleeves as an insurance policy back when the G5 was struggling with too much heat for laptop designs.

Last edited by BigD on 05-Oct-2014 at 05:39 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 05-Oct-2014 at 05:34 PM.

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CodeSmith 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 5-Oct-2014 19:52:09
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@BigD

This is why I think AROS is extremely important to the long term survival of the Amiga. In a few years the only way to run PPC software will be on expensive workstation class machines like the X1000, and that will mean only a very small group of people will write new amiga software - imagine if back in 1990 CBM cancelled the A500 when they launched the A3000 and said that's the only model we'll be selling from now on. AROS has the potential to prevent that; when (not if) PPC stops being a viable home computer platform, we will have at least 68K, ARM and x86 to choose from for the future.

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BigD 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 5-Oct-2014 20:25:25
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7305
From: UK

@CodeSmith

Quote:
This is why I think AROS is extremely important to the long term survival of the Amiga. In a few years the only way to run PPC software will be on expensive workstation class machines like the X1000, and that will mean only a very small group of people will write new amiga software


If we get to that point and the ACube boards stop being developed then a cheaper ARM based machine will have to be released to fill the void. AmigaOS hosted on Windows is not a long term solution. I have XP that I can run using Fusion on my Mac but I hardly ever use it other than to run Sonic Stage or Red Alert 2. I do not consider myself a XP user!

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CodeSmith 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 5-Oct-2014 20:36:12
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@BigD

Yep, emulation is an alternative too, but it's not that palatable to many and it's also admitting defeat. When I mentioned the 68K I was referring to the various FPGA projects out there, xilinx and altera keep making better and faster chips and guys like Tobiflex keep taking advantage of them. I full expect to see a 1GHz minimig descendent in the not too distant future, and softcore 68k has the advantage that it is completely in our control and free of platform animosity. Maybe for the amiga the seeds for the future really are in the past

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logicalheart 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 3:04:09
#8 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Dec-2003
Posts: 696
From: Sandy, Utah. USA


I'm guessing there will be plenty of CPUs available until ACube migrates to a new one.

From a larger perspective, this may start the success or fail of Applied Micro's processor division. It's a huge risk to move into an already saturated ARM market.

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OlafS25 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 8:41:29
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6320
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

Back to the future

There is another point why 68k still has potential advantages to all other platforms... compiler. You have plenty of them on 68k including modula 2, oberon, pascal (at the moment there is a new version of free pascal available too), asm, amiga-e, hollywood several basic compilers and and and

and I am only referring to free compilers/environments (except Hollywood of course), there are a lot of former commercial available too (f.e. on ebay or shops like vesalia) like StormC.

When you look at the NG platforms the situation is much worse. You have C/C++, PortablE, Hollywood. Have I forgotten something? In some cases the 68k code also works (at least partly) on AmigaOS and MorphOS too but it is still 68k and not PPC code.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 06-Oct-2014 at 08:50 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 06-Oct-2014 at 08:50 AM.

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Rob 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 9:03:28
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
Which means no new CPUs for Acube's line, they'll have to switch to Freescale.


Well they still have the 465 based line which scales to higher clock rates, dual core and PCIe 2.0, should Acube wish to continue using AMC hardware.

Personally, I hope they are looking at LSI's 3400 series chips for a future Sam since they offer higher clock rates than the 465 line and I understand that 476fp is supposed to have Altivec.

Last edited by Rob on 06-Oct-2014 at 09:16 AM.

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OldFart 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 9:03:37
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@OlafS25

Quote:
You have C/C++, PortablE, Hollywood. Have I forgotten something?

Erm, taking a visit to the development page in OS4Depot, I see things like Modula-2 and Basic, ECX, Pascal, JAVA, Lua, Perl. And maybe *I* missed something...

Cheer up lads, it's not THAT bad at all, me thinx!

OldFart

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OlafS25 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 9:15:10
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6320
From: Unknown

@OldFart

ok, I was not aware of Modula 2. I see Amiga-E (and PortablE), Free Pascal (older port) and some scripting languages and SDLBasic and XAMOS (I think both not in development anymore). But it is still only a fraction of the 68k base.

"it is not THAT bad" but 68k has advantages there. That is what I have written

Last edited by OlafS25 on 06-Oct-2014 at 09:17 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 06-Oct-2014 at 09:16 AM.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 10:04:17
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@Rob

Quote:
Personally, I hope they are looking at LSI's 3400 series
chips for a future Sam since they offer higher clock rates
than the 465 line and I understand that 476fp is supposed to
have Altivec.


LSI chips have only 3 PCIe lanes.

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Rob 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 12:30:24
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@WolfToTheMoon

Is it 3 lanes or 3 interfaces?

Specs say;

Quote:
3x PCI Express® up to 5.0 Gb/s per lane up to 3 ports (x1/x2/x4)


It's not completely clear.

Anyhow even if it is just 3 lanes they are second gen so 2 lanes connected to a x8 slot would be just as fast as the 4 lanes connected to the x8 of the Sam 460. The 3rd lane can be used for a PCIe to PCI bridge with 2 PCI slot for a SATA card and audio card.

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Hypex 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 14:31:33
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11180
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Moving to ARM is not easy or to anything else for that matter. First, there needs to be financial and human resources as well as time, to do any of this. And AmigaOS lacks all of those now, leading to slow development for major features, and further drags from needing to support and adapt to new hardware.

Apart from that, there is the work involved, which would mean they would need to break off from current development to support a completely different CPU. Even if it was ARM big endian. So there would need to be a rewritten kernel, AmigaOS apps recompiled, a new 68K emulator wrtiten (or two) and all existing OS4 apps would not be compatible.

And then, would it make future OS4 boards any cheaper? Sure, PPC is more per Ghz than ARM or x86. But most likely we will need a custom board. And there come the big bucks again. Be good if a reference board could be chosen.

Apparently there are reasonable PPC reference boards out there, but the Amiga companies don't seem to be using them, because all the end user boards are still expensive!

Last edited by Hypex on 08-Oct-2014 at 12:50 PM.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 14:56:15
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1351
From: CRO

@Hypex

Quote:
Be good if a reference board could be chosen.


All future AMD ARM chips will be pin compatible with their x64 equivalents and will use the same motherboards. So that is not a problem.

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itix 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 16:57:03
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@OlafS25

Quote:

In some cases the 68k code also works (at least partly) on AmigaOS and MorphOS too but it is still 68k and not PPC code.


You talk like 68k is second class citizen on the PowerPC. There is nothing wrong with 68k code, it works, it does its job and is fast enough for most purposes. If it is fast on real 68k it will be faster on PPC (sans PowerUp Amigas).

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OlafS25 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 16:59:58
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6320
From: Unknown

@itix

I used "Some cases" because everything hitting the hardware does not work (without UAE)

Last edited by OlafS25 on 06-Oct-2014 at 05:00 PM.

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itix 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 17:40:04
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@OlafS25

Yeah, but hitting the hardware did not always work on my Amiga 1200 either. Especially if you have VGA monitor only.

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Signal 
Re: Applied Micro moving away from PowerPC
Posted on 6-Oct-2014 17:44:30
#20 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

I think we should make the jump to ARM today. Of course, since there are no ARM desktop motherboards, there will be no need to port anything to one, a real time and manpower saving.

Then again, as soon as one comes along, for 150-200 USD I'll be the first one to put in an order,,,, as long as it plays old games out of the box, and is windows compatible plus uses my 12 year old TV PCI card. YUP! sign me up.

Well,,, I'm off to play the Grand piano.



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