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      /  Every Day a New Surprise (Copyright Violations of muidev.de/MUI4)
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Overflow 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 11-Dec-2014 17:32:06
#101 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1411
From: Norway

As for viewer count on the thread; you got your resident F5 monkies like myself and you wava to keep that count running wild.

Before I started frequenting AW and Aorg, I only clicked the topics that had any resemblance of a intresting topic name. Skipped the rest. Once you become a daily reader, I guess the "intresting topics" are read quickly, and the appearent "drama headlines" are not enough to keep you from clicking.

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tokai 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 11-Dec-2014 17:36:11
#102 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 124
From: binaryriot

@eliyahu

The autodoc of Aboutbox is just one of the many files that were copied (and altered). I can only tell about files I made, of course... but I'm sure the other authors who's files are there weren't asked either.

I don't have enough time nor mood to make a full investigation, because it is certainly fruitless undertaking with the obvious lack of knowledge, understanding or respect of copyright on behalf of those "MUI4" guys. As example here's a diff output of the two Aboutbox include file in comparison:

Quote:

$ diff -ruN morphossdk-20140508/sdk.pack/Development/GG/os-include/mui/Aboutbox_mcc.h MUI-4.0-2014R5-os4/SDK/MUI/C/include/mui/Aboutbox_mcc.h
--- morphossdk-20140508/morphossdk/sdk.pack/Development/GG/os-include/mui/Aboutbox_mcc.h 2014-05-08 12:25:52.000000000 +0200
+++ MUI-4.0-2014R5-os4/SDK/MUI/C/include/mui/Aboutbox_mcc.h 2014-10-31 08:41:48.000000000 +0100
@@ -3,9 +3,6 @@

/*
* Aboutbox.mcc
- *
- * Copyright ? 2007 Christian Rosentreter
- * All rights reserved.
*/

#ifndef EXEC_TYPES_H
@@ -17,6 +14,19 @@
#endif


+#ifdef __cplusplus
+extern "C" {
+#endif
+
+#if defined(__PPC__)
+ #if defined(__GNUC__)
+ #pragma pack(2)
+ #elif defined(__VBCC__)
+ #pragma amiga-align
+ #endif
+#endif
+
+
#define MUIC_Aboutbox "Aboutbox.mcc"
#define AboutboxObject MUI_NewObject(MUIC_Aboutbox

@@ -38,8 +48,8 @@
/* special values
*/

-/*
- * the fallback mode defines in which order Aboutbox.mcc tries to get valid image
+/*
+ * the fallback mode defines in which order Aboutbox.mcc tries to get valid image
* data for the logo:
*
* D = PROGDIR:.info
@@ -53,5 +63,8 @@
/* messages
*/

+#ifdef __cplusplus
+}
+#endif

#endif /* ABOUTBOX_MCC_H */



As you see they just copied the file from the MorphOS SDK, removed the copyright (the lines with the '-' in front of it) and added some C++ nonsense (the lines with '+' in front of it). The whole rest of the file is the very same (the output only shows the differences, not the whole files). The same goes for the other include files.

That's just plain stealing. Yes, include files will eventually look similar, but what those guys (whoever it is) did goes far beyond ending up with the same defines for methods, attributes and values. Especially killing the copyright in those vanilla copies is rather disrespectful, IMHO.

Last edited by tokai on 11-Dec-2014 at 05:41 PM.
Last edited by tokai on 11-Dec-2014 at 05:37 PM.

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tcheko 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 11-Dec-2014 17:45:53
#103 ]
Member
Joined: 5-May-2010
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Feel free to start a thread backlinking to this one.

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tokai 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 11-Dec-2014 17:53:36
#104 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 124
From: binaryriot

@tcheko, @broadblues:

I updated the opening post with an updated title. Is that OK?

/edit
Now it should fit, I think.

Last edited by tokai on 11-Dec-2014 at 06:00 PM.

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tcheko 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 11-Dec-2014 18:30:31
#105 ]
Member
Joined: 5-May-2010
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

@tokai

Haa. A nice topic change that should trigger the attention of the muidev team now...

Related user to muidev.de:

http://muidev.de/wiki/WikiStart?action=history

Account from AW:
http://amigaworld.net/userinfo.php?uid=3472
http://amigaworld.net/userinfo.php?uid=3564

They both have accounts.

Last login date for
- tboeckel: 11-Nov-2014
- damato: 11-Sep-2013

We should at least expect a reply from tboeckel...

Last edited by tcheko on 11-Dec-2014 at 06:59 PM.

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Xenic 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 11-Dec-2014 22:24:28
#106 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2004
Posts: 1213
From: Pennsylvania, USA

What exactly does everyone hope to gain by the this disparagement of the MUI devs?? Is it to discourage them from programming for any Amiga platforms? This topic is just a big pile of sour grapes. Nothing good will come of it.

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Fransexy 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Copyright Violations of muidev.de/MUI4)
Posted on 11-Dec-2014 22:59:17
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2316
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

We have reached a chaotic point of mess, forks,and trash
Maybe is time for a reboot and make an universal (amigalike) Gui solution
what happened to "feeling" (was that his name) Gui? it was open source. may be it's time to revive old gems to drive the (unite) future

Last edited by Fransexy on 11-Dec-2014 at 11:00 PM.

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tcheko 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 11-Dec-2014 23:02:23
#108 ]
Member
Joined: 5-May-2010
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

@Xenic

Keeping proper credits when it is due? Is that hard to understand?

This story shows the real amateurish level of the muidev team...

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tygre 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 1:00:04
#109 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2011
Posts: 171
From: Unknown

@all

Removing copyright notices is a copyright violation. But, given that many files have been changed (how many files are we talking about here?), the removal could be the result of unfortunate automated modifications of the files to adjust for C++ (i.e., a mistake times as many files).

Has anyone contacted directly the people who released these files?

Tygre

PS. I recently had to change the copyright and license of thousands of files (legally: with the written acknowledgments of all involved parties) and I was very surprised by the amount of variations that I could find when it comes to write copyright notices and licenses, which made the process quite painful and manual...

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Xenic 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 1:07:12
#110 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2004
Posts: 1213
From: Pennsylvania, USA

@tcheko
Quote:
Keeping proper credits when it is due? Is that hard to understand?

That point was made by the original post. The remainder of the topic is just a display childish behavior.

Quote:
This story shows the real amateurish level of the muidev team...

Do the critics here expect professional developers to provide them with FREE software? To use an old cliche: Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.



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terminills 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 1:29:50
#111 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1234
From: Unknown

@Xenic


@tcheko
Quote:


Do the critics here expect professional developers to provide them with FREE software? To use an old cliche: Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.



I'm pretty sure most of the critics don't expect professional developers to steal and take credit for someone else's work.

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tlosm 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 6:30:03
#112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2339
From: Amiga land

poor vs poor ... and we are in same position of 2000 and we dont make a step up in no direction or better say : we are only loose users from every direction...
soon will remain only the os developer say"my os is better than your" wathcing their monitor
but no one will use it.
amiga is dead because this .... because no collaboration because the poor war

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tcheko 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 7:25:24
#113 ]
Member
Joined: 5-May-2010
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

@tygre

Sadly for you, tokai is really pedantic when it comes to details. He doesn't fail at writing properly *his* name in *his* documentation.

An automated replace with sed wouldn't have missed any opportunities with tokai's documentation, trust me.

This change has been willingly made to remove original copyright without prior consent of tokai.

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tcheko 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 8:11:17
#114 ]
Member
Joined: 5-May-2010
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

@tlosm

No. The root cause isn't those little wars.

We're just running outdated operating system in every corner with not much stuff to run with (be it games or apps). This has already been discussed ad nauseam.

And as far I am concerned, MorphOS is still gaining user on a daily basis (see http://mm.pl/~recedent/wykres2.png).

Programming AmigaOS like operating system requires quite a lot of expertise and experience. Most people programming an Amiga like system are in the 30 to 40 and mostly use C.

AmigaOS has one of the hardest learning curve and it is not really friendly when you mess with it.

You can't attract new developers with vinager (learning curve + kicking back hard when failing) when all the fresh meat are taught Java, C# (or any other .Net dialect) or other 'mostly unbreakable' language in shining IDE with all the interesting mess hidden behind buttons.

Version break is another subject worth discussing. See AboutBox MCC from tokai. Develin tries to support many flavors but in the end, it is PITA because some people enjoy breaking version numbering scheme or add/remove/unimplement features.

How could you ask a developer to support many flavors when such differences are willingly made between operating systems?

Doubling development time for testing, fixing and making sure everything works ok everywhere? That's a no go for me at least.

And open sourcing stuff won't help here when people take over and break compatibility/stability (see YAM stuff for ex.).

Don't expect people open their source code when such dicks simply unrespectfully remove credits in docs...

Proper credits when it is due is a basic rule. Break it, expect sh*tstorm.

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Spirantho 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 8:52:55
#115 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2004
Posts: 1044
From: Aberystwyth, Wales

For my 2 cents:

This thread was always going to turn into a witch hunt. No MUI dev is going to want to join this thread because it's like a snake pit.

This should NOT have been done via an open forum. To do so shows a desire to shame the MUI dev team as a higher priority than to actually fix the problem.

All that was needed was an email to the MUI dev team asking for an explanation. If you then get no reply after a reasonable amount of time, and no explanation or reversal of what's been done wrong, THEN it's time to go public.

What should not be done, is that as soon as something is demanding explanation, as is clear in this case, a witch hunt begins with virtual pitchforks and torches ready to lynch any poor MUI dev member who tries to say anything.

A public forum is not and never will be the correct way to address disputes, it just creates bad feeling and animosity rather than trying to get the problem sorted. Defendants (in this case MUI dev team) should be allowed to answer their accusation before any accusation is made public.


That's just my feelings anyway.

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Overflow 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 10:26:56
#116 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1411
From: Norway

@Spirantho

+1

Direct communication is always best. Forums usually leads to sore toes, even tho both "sides" have the best inentions originally.

Last edited by Overflow on 12-Dec-2014 at 10:29 AM.

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tcheko 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 10:41:58
#117 ]
Member
Joined: 5-May-2010
Posts: 17
From: Unknown

@Spirantho

I quote myself:

Quote:

Proper credits when it is due is a basic rule. Break it, expect sh*tstorm.


Totally agreeing for the witch hunt. That's the intented result of such thread. Going privately would have been a waste of time and no pop corn at all. At least some entertainment!

Still, if they had kept the original credit unaltered, this nice thread wouldn't have been started at all in the first place by the owner of the copyright... Don't you think?

And for the snake pit, sure:

Muidev team has been warned by Develin with a ticket in their TRAC tool. They cannot be not aware of the issue.

Solving the issue? Easy, three steps process:

- fix credits in the offending files,
- privately appologise for the mistake (tokai's email is no secret)
- publish a little post here for annoucing that the problem is sorted out.

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tokai 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 11:23:18
#118 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 124
From: binaryriot

@Spirantho

What makes you believe those people weren't contacted in the past? I can't remember a case were this was not a fruitless endeavour.

I still don't know who is really responsible for this (everything points to Mr. T. Böckelmann, but I can't say for sure.) There's no contact e-mail address provided in the "Read Me" in this "MUI4" archive (am I supposed to hunt down for this on some random Web sites?). One of the authors even hides behind a silly alias ("Jens Maus"). What shall I make out of this?

Of course, I can only speak for my files, but the legality of the whole archive/ release looks as good as a rotten apple.

Users need to be aware of this. I can understand some user's point of view too, who desperately want new software like OWB. But using a "MUI4" of rather questionable legality can not be the solution.

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Spirantho 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 12:36:28
#119 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2004
Posts: 1044
From: Aberystwyth, Wales

@tokai

If you did contact them, of course, then that's different. In that case they deserve it :) But that's not how the post reads - it reads as though you just found out and immediately came on here to tell everyone about it.

I think the point is that if I'd done something wrong I'd want to be alerted to the fact first rather than having my name dragged publicly through the mud before I had chance to rectify it.
As it is though we've now got 6 pages of a thread that's all about how evil MUI devs are. That's hardly encouraging them to explain what they did and how it happened.

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tboeckel 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 12-Dec-2014 12:48:05
#120 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Oct-2004
Posts: 267
From: Rehmerloh, Germany

@all

I hereby appologize for having included Autodocs and headers of other developers in recent MUI for AmigaOS releases without having asked for permission before as well as having replaced a developer's name by „Albert Einstein“ in the Aboutwindow.mcc Autodoc and having removed copyright notices from the Aboutbox_mcc.h and Rawimage_mcc.h header files. I never intended to harm anybody or to disgrace the development work of anybody. The point was just to avoid possible confusion about who developed the classes which are actually included in the MUI for AmigaOS releases.

The copyright notice in the Aboutbox.mcc Autodoc was always kept in place, only the name „Christian Rosentreter“ in the example credits had been replaced by „Albert Einstein“. I did this change, because I considered the example as exactly this: an example. Since Christian Rosentreter was not actively involved in developing the AmigaOS version of Aboutbox.mcc I considered this to be ok, especially since this is just an example. The copyright string at the top was kept in place, although this again is just an example source code.

I have never been contacted privately by Christian Rostentreter or any other MorphOS developer regarding this topic.

I am no lawyer and I cannot tell exactly how many changes to a public documentation and/or a header file must be done to consider it to be a distinct thing. By now all Autodocs and headers have been rewritten and will be included in the next nightly builds and all future releases. For all included Autodocs and headers the names former developers and the developers of equally named classes on MorphOS have been included to clearly point out that the original idea of the classes and their documentation origins from somewhere else. However, certain similarities to the Autodocs and headers included in the MorphOS SDK cannot be avoided, because both versions describe the same stuff although they were developed by different people.

All classes in question are 100% reimplementations done by me alone and were developed on basis of the publically available documentation. No source code has been stolen.

Finally the MUI for AmigaOS team is not making any money of the development. Everything is done is spare time and as a hobby project.

BTW: Jens Maus is a real name, no joke or whatsoever.

Last edited by tboeckel on 12-Dec-2014 at 12:48 PM.

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