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      /  Every Day a New Surprise (Copyright Violations of muidev.de/MUI4)
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PosterThread
Xmas87 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 7:58:53
#141 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2013
Posts: 248
From: Unknown

@QuikSanz

Stand back, watch from afar. Threads like these let you see peoples true colours.

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itix 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 8:53:12
#142 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@wawa

Yep, Classic was just stupid name invented by Amiga Inc when they tried to market their new AmigaDE as new Amiga.

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itix 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 9:00:11
#143 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@AmiKit

In fact this thread served its purpose. Problem got solved and it is good reminder to everyone to not copy copyrighted header files and docs around without thinking. Even with good intentions.

No animals were harmed in this thread :)

Last edited by itix on 13-Dec-2014 at 09:02 AM.

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AmiKit 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 9:10:34
#144 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2004
Posts: 1084
From: Europe

@itix

Quote:
In fact this thread served its purpose.

I believe a private email communication would be a much better solution than this carpet flame bombing.

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A1200 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 9:16:59
#145 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 2874
From: Westhall, UK

@AmiKit

No, copyright fraudsters need to be exposed. Open court all the way. You're dead, this is the afterlife and I'm God!

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Aslak3 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 10:14:39
#146 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 260
From: Southampton, UK

@itix

Quote:
Yep, Classic was just stupid name invented by Amiga Inc when they tried to market their new AmigaDE as new Amiga.


Thank you so much! This was the missing peace. For someone who was (and mostly is) away from the Amiga since 1997, I finally have the answer to where this stupid term came from. It is used almost exclusively NEGATIVELY pretty much everywhere to mean something "old and inferior", and less "Amiga" then "new Amiga". It's not used the same way people talk about old cars. I think usage of the word should stop.

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Overflow 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 11:09:48
#147 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1407
From: Norway

@Aslak3

Pft

I use the term "classic" even after I realised its inaccurate. It works for me, and I dont see it as a negative. A classic car can be beautiful and exquisit; tho we know they usually aint high performance compared to the newer models.
Hell, with my 40 years, I approach "classic" status. Then again; the appropiate term is probarly "old and cranky"?

I will never throw away my A1200 under any circumstances, even if some feel me calling it "classic" is disrespectful. It IS old, and it IS inferior in many ways. But it is fun to dabble with and I predict my current Wintel PCs will break down long before the A1200.

As for the thread; yes its important to raise awareness regarding copyright. In the same token; when I see something in my day to day life which is not as it should I usually contact the people its concerning DIRECTLY. If I find a phonenumber I call them cause that usually removes any chance of misunderstanding. If its only email, well then I email them. If I would get no response I would escalate it.

That said; making a thread reminding people about copyright isnt a bad thing, but not sure about the "tone", even if the original poster was within his right to do so.

Something about "hands on approach" instead of a "sledgehammer".

Its been somewhat educational all the same.

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Daedalus 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 13:56:38
#148 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1594
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote:
I use the term "classic" even after I realised its inaccurate. It works for me, and I dont see it as a negative. A classic car can be beautiful and exquisit; tho we know they usually aint high performance compared to the newer models.
Hell, with my 40 years, I approach "classic" status. Then again; the appropiate term is probarly "old and cranky"?

I will never throw away my A1200 under any circumstances, even if some feel me calling it "classic" is disrespectful. It IS old, and it IS inferior in many ways. But it is fun to dabble with and I predict my current Wintel PCs will break down long before the A1200.


+1 for this. I really can't see how calling 68k Amigas Classics causes a problem for some people. I have four 68k Amigas, and I call all of them "Classics" or "Originals", meaning them as exactly that. I still use them along with OS4 and MOS machines, and can't for the life of me see anything negative about it.

Cars of a similar age are typically called "Classic" or "Vintage". In Ireland, that's even a legal term for any car 30 years old or older - not that far off the age of the original Amiga. And, truth be told, 25 year old classic cars tend to compare much more favourably with their modern counterparts than 68k Amigas do - performance and usability of classic cars means they can still be used as everyday cars, whereas 68k Amigas are rather more limited.

To me, bitching about the Classic label really feels like people just looking to find something to fight over. Get over it and get on with your lives. As Amiga arguments go, that one is probably the most petty and immature I've ever heard.

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itix 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 14:18:51
#149 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@Daedalus

Well, oldest AmigaOne and Pegasos systems are nearly 15 years old. If someone developed new 68k hardware and developed the OS further it could be just as NG than anything else.

Especially since re-advent of AROS/68k it could become NG.

I just call my Amigas as Amigas, was it Amiga 500 or Mac Mini. Can't bother with Amiga NG or Amiga Classic terms.

Last edited by itix on 13-Dec-2014 at 02:27 PM.
Last edited by itix on 13-Dec-2014 at 02:25 PM.
Last edited by itix on 13-Dec-2014 at 02:24 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 14:26:12
#150 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5086
From: Unknown

@Daedalus

and why does the other side "not get over it and get on with their lives"?

here old cars are called "oldtimer" and not "classics"

But apart from that, how will you call the "classics" when they are equipped with modern FPGA cards? "Modern classics"? "Modernized classics"? "Hyper-Classics"?

"Oldtimer" f.e. never was used in a negativ way, "classics" (regarding Amiga) always was used to say here are the owners of modern systems based on PPC and there the old retro systems.

and BTW my own 68k environment runs faster than Sam 460 ex so Sam 440/460 are "classics" too.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Dec-2014 at 02:33 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Dec-2014 at 02:32 PM.

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Daedalus 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 14:45:45
#151 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1594
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@itix

Yes, a good attitude to have. I too call them Amigas, but use Classic as a synonym for 68k when distinguishing between them. As for the old A1 and Pegasos systems, I'd consider them pretty vintage too in the times of X1000s, G5s, PCIe etc. "Classic NG" perhaps?


@OlafS25

"Old-timer Amigas" then I don't really know what you mean by other side though, anyone arguing over such a silly little thing needs to grow up, whether they are saying Classic is bad or Classic is an invalid term. People will call things classic when they're the older version of current products, no matter what it is and no matter whether it's an official term or not. Modern reproductions are also called classic, just look at clothes for example: there are brand new dresses that replicate old styles and these are called classic as well. (I only know this because my fiancee is shopping for wedding dresses at the moment ) So you could still see a modern development of a 68k Amiga (FPGA based for example) as "classic" because it's styled on the original product.

What I'm trying to say is that I have never seen it as a negative, just as a descriptive term. There shouldn't be any negative connotations with the term. These computers are very old, need a lot of care, and lack the horsepower of their modern counterparts. That's not being negative, that's just what they are.

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 15:03:36
#152 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5086
From: Unknown

@Daedalus

Hm "classic Amiga", "classic-styled FPGA based Amiga", "classic NG", "NG" it starts to look a little complicated

Why not call them "68k Amigas" or more simple "Amiga"?

It is really a funny discussion that is specific to a part of the community. If it is not really a problem and we should get over it why not simple getting over it. There are people that react sensible to it why not avoiding the term. And PPC based systems (with perhaps exception of G5 Macs and X1000) are "classic" too. So when you are so fond of it then I will use the term for old-fashioned PPC hardware too. What do you think?

I believe you that you personally do not see it negative but I saw it used that way countless times. So it is connected negative today.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Dec-2014 at 03:07 PM.

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Overflow 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 15:10:38
#153 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1407
From: Norway

@OlafS25

This is a CLASSIC conundrum.

Well, I guess not, but I cant say I care either or.

It reminds me when I talk to my father at times. I swear he makes up words for things. Ive never heard of those words before, but since the context which he uses those words are crystal clear, I have no problem understanding what he means.
When I call him out on it, he just laughs and says "It IS a real word, i swear!!".
And no, his "grapefruit" isnt starting to go soft due to old/classic age.

Point is; the conversation and exchange of information works perfectly, and I see no reason to change him on that.

Likewise; good luck trying to convince me to stop using the word "classic"

EDIT: and I cant help you feeling the word "classic" is negativly loaded. Thats really not my problem.
And I feel this discussion is a complete waste of time (plus way off topic) so Im not going to post more about it.

Last edited by Overflow on 13-Dec-2014 at 03:13 PM.
Last edited by Overflow on 13-Dec-2014 at 03:11 PM.

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damato 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 20:14:49
#154 ]
Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2004
Posts: 15
From: Dresden, Germany

@tokai

Quote:
I stand corrected.

It is rather unusual for a male person of adult age to change his last name here in Germany, so I really thought this is some kind of alias thing.


Well, it is also quite unusual that someone is raising such a public claim like you instead of first trying to find out yourself. Going to http://jens-maus.de would have been enough to check that. And if you would check the absolute numbers of male persons changing their last names you would immediately know that it isn't that uncommon. And don't let me speak about how ill-minded it is that someone thinks that "Jens Maus" might be an alias. Absolute non-sense.

And it is also quite "unusual" that someone is so pedantic and uncooperative like you because of a pseudo "copyright" issue on public API documentation and something that almost zero percent of the human population is interested in. My guess is that you are simply pissed that someone was able to reverse engineer your classes and release it publicly. And you could have simply prevented that from happening in releasing it for other platforms as well or by making it open source. But you missed that and that's why you are pissed and try to find a way to blame us in another way. And as reverse-engineering is allowed all you have to argue is the public API documentation which in fact is quite a poor argument. But well. So please go on and take a lawyer and invest a few thousand Euros if that's what you want and need to improve your maleness.

Everything else would be a waste of time from now on and that's why Thore and me won't reply anymore from now on (also because you never wrote a single direct email to us but prefer to hide and blame people in public fora) again very poor!

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Daedalus 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 20:26:07
#155 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1594
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:

Hm "classic Amiga", "classic-styled FPGA based Amiga", "classic NG", "NG" it starts to look a little complicated

Yep, it does, but they're all valid descriptions so it's down to whether people bother with clumsy names like that. To me they're all Amigas though so I only really need to get into descriptions like that when I'm differentiating between them.

Quote:
Why not call them "68k Amigas" or more simple "Amiga"?

I do, and nothing wrong with that either. After all, that's what they are. But saying that you can't call them classics or getting offended when someone does is pointless, and in these cases looks like arguing for argument's sake.

Quote:
It is really a funny discussion that is specific to a part of the community. If it is not really a problem and we should get over it why not simple getting over it. There are people that react sensible to it why not avoiding the term. And PPC based systems (with perhaps exception of G5 Macs and X1000) are "classic" too. So when you are so fond of it then I will use the term for old-fashioned PPC hardware too. What do you think?

Yep, no problem with that. I would consider A1-XE hardware approaching classic, and most PPC Macs as well. So, comparing them to the X1000 or some I7-based system for example, I'd consider them classic, but when distinguishing them from 68k machines, it's the 68k machines that become classic. It's just context for me.

Quote:
I believe you that you personally do not see it negative but I saw it used that way countless times. So it is connected negative today.

I have to say I never really got that impression except in threads like this one arguing against the use of the term "Classic". But fair enough, I guess it's another sad reflection of the "community" in that case.

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wawa 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 20:29:35
#156 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

apparently people who accomodated, treasured and cultivated the therm of "classics" are pretty insistant about it. wonder if they are as much insistant about other "customary" descriptions of the kind that have been appointed by a group of people to defame other group of people.

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number6 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 20:33:04
#157 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9858
From: In the village

@wawa

Just refer to them as one of the following and be done with it:

C=Amigas
or
Escomigas

#6

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wawa 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 20:45:03
#158 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5715
From: Unknown

@number6

is that result of some complex or taboo that people cannot spell things by their genuine names: amiga?

if so, it might need some deep breath excercizing.

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jPV 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 20:45:54
#159 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Apr-2005
Posts: 568
From: .fi

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:

Why not call them "68k Amigas" or more simple "Amiga"?


Because "classic" also includes PPC accelerators and PPC software (PUP/WOS). I haven't thought "classic" in that negative way myself. There should be some word describing Commodore/Escom/AmigaTechnologies/MacroSystems/whatever pre OS4 machines and expansions, and well.. unless someone comes up better term, I'd let it be "classic".

Plain "Amiga" would be ok for me, but it gets mixed next gen systems especially because OS4 folks seem to insist call their new system with "AmigaOS" and "Amiga", and many times not emphasize version 4 or other indicators on it. NG stuff is that different and having contradictory opinions that there should be clear line drawn between them and the original (well, classic) ones.

But really.. it seems that only minority thinks that term "classic" is that negative. Maybe not that perfect term, but not negative either. I've called my dozen of 68k systems that way too. And I surely love them all :) I'd upset if someone would call them "oldtimers" or so...

Last edited by jPV on 13-Dec-2014 at 08:54 PM.

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number6 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 13-Dec-2014 20:54:24
#160 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9858
From: In the village

@wawa

Quote:
is that result of some complex or taboo that people cannot spell things by their genuine names: amiga?


No. It's called a concession.

If you name if after a manufacturer/distributor the argument disappears.

Obviously I wasn't serious, because I know better than to think that a solution that kills the argument is preferable to continuing an argument over the name. Heh.

#6

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