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      /  warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
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PosterThread
number6 
Re: sonnet ppc accelerator warpos compatible project in progress
Posted on 23-Mar-2015 12:48:34
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Does it need to make sense? People doing things for fun


I think you are sensing an argument, where there IS none.

He is basically saying it DOES make sense as a hobby...doing this for fun.

His comment about making sense only relates to the idea of this being a commercial endeavor, given the KNOWN status/condition of the Sonnet Crescendo MG3-400-512, MG3-500-1M, and other "pieces".

#6

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strim 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 7:53:49
#42 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2011
Posts: 59
From: Warsaw, Poland

Comparison between 68060 and Sonnet G3, running cybermand.

http://youtu.be/BRtZmJ36R6M

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wawa 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 8:12:48
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@strim

seems like g3 is almost clock by clock as fast as 060 in this comparison (060@50mhz vs g3@500mhz, the later being almost ten times faster)

i appreciate your effort and would be willing to help testing if i got my hands on a sonnet, dont have a mediator with the 3v rail though (a4kdi), which defeats my intention alas. i see it critical only in this respect as i have never liked warpos, for the necessity of having dedicated binaries to take advantage of it.

so good luck with it. ill keep my eye on while rather trying to do something for aros 68k, even if as a user my abilities to contribute are rather limited. and this is what itix is at i guess;)

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strim 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 8:53:07
#44 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2011
Posts: 59
From: Warsaw, Poland

@wawa

Quote:
3v rail


Well, that's not something I extensively tested to be honest. For now I assumed it is needed.

Quote:
i have never liked warpos, for the necessity of having dedicated binaries to take advantage of it


I'm not sure what you mean here. It's obvious a program needs to be compiled for PowerPC processor to take advantage of it. WarpOS doesn't do any emulation, it's just an API to access the PPC CPU, while 68k is still running other programs. But WarpOS program is mixed 68k/PPC hunk binary. From user's point of view it's simple. You just click the binary and it runs.

The only dependency in case of Sonnet is sonnet.library (and a small wrapper to patch existing WarpOS programs, it does not exist yet though). No need to install old WarpOS from H&P at all.

Quote:
even if as a user my abilities to contribute are rather limited. and this is what itix is at i guess;)


Not every user becomes a developer, BUT every developer was a user first. Even if today your abilities are limited, if you dig down deep enough, you might one day wake up trying to patch existing things or write your own stuff. What is a developer really? He/she is just a user with more knowledge and some creative passion.

So I disagree with the view that developers are somehow a special caste, and that developers only are allowed to improve the software. This view seems to prevail in Amiga community. Several Amiga projects are trying to draw a hard line between messiah-developers and the rest of the world. Their egos might feel good about it, but that's where the advantages end.

I think it is important to make Amiga projects accessible for other people to hack on. Open projects are also invaluable from educational point of view. We won't have more competent developers if we keep everything secretive, where are the new people going to learn?

Last edited by strim on 24-Mar-2015 at 08:53 AM.

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wawa 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 10:04:37
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@strim

Quote:
I'm not sure what you mean here. It's obvious a program needs to be compiled for PowerPC processor to take advantage of it. WarpOS doesn't do any emulation, it's just an API to access the PPC CPU, while 68k is still running other programs. But WarpOS program is mixed 68k/PPC hunk binary. From user's point of view it's simple. You just click the binary and it runs.


i know. i didnt liked warpos since programs had to be compiled against it to take advantage of acceleration. i would have preferred a solution, where the accelerator cpu (be it ppc or whatever) emulates 68k cpu and therefore speeds up the whole range of software even if was not so efficient as the native code. i think this has been a design mistake that led warpos type solution to be of very limited advantage.

Quote:
The only dependency in case of Sonnet is sonnet.library (and a small wrapper to patch existing WarpOS programs, it does not exist yet though). No need to install old WarpOS from H&P at all.


so even the warpos programs need to be patched before being usable on sonnet? thats another show stopper for this approach to become a solution popular with the users imho. again, dont get me wrong, as i said i appreciate your effort. but from community point of view it is further fragmenting the software base instead of consolidate it, which would be useful in order to gain more common sense development with imited and still leaking resources we have. not everyone may agree with me, and i dont want to turn this thread into another meta discussion, but i think that 68k code is sort of common denominator for all, so best approach is to invest in hardware or virtual machines that can execute it more efficiently, rather than trying to introduce new incompatible instruction sets, that need special care.

Quote:
I think it is important to make Amiga projects accessible for other people to hack on. Open projects are also invaluable from educational point of view. We won't have more competent developers if we keep everything secretive, where are the new people going to learn?


i agree with you and thats the reason why i have chosen aros to support, even if it may be of a overall lesser code quality than morphos. though as i said even through im trying to help with different projects since years, im so much of an un-gifted noob that i probably even slow things down rather than helping, see the thread on aorg where i try to compile netsurf with the help of chris.;) so, i though think the existing competent users and devs in amiga community are a special caste, in contrary to the most of the "lamers".

Last edited by wawa on 24-Mar-2015 at 10:10 AM.

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strim 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 10:12:58
#46 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2011
Posts: 59
From: Warsaw, Poland

@wawa

Quote:
so even the warpos programs need to be patched before being usable on sonnet?


Patching will be transparent in the final version.

It is necessary since PPC CPU on Sonnet can not access Amiga Fast RAM. Original WarpOS was made with the assumption that all address space is shared between 68k and PPC CPUs.

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wawa 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 10:26:05
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@strim

Quote:
Patching will be transparent in the final version.


you mean like patching on the fly at execution time? sounds much better.

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strim 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 10:50:29
#48 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2011
Posts: 59
From: Warsaw, Poland

Quote:
you mean like patching on the fly at execution time? sounds much better.


That's the idea we have.

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Morphix 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 11:58:50
#49 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Aug-2009
Posts: 449
From: Greece

@thread

May I ask from where this "30 sonnets only exist" info comes from? On the original EAB thread there is a link to welovemacs.com whete sonnet cards are still for sale.

I also would kindly ask for a sooner or later answer about the voltage of the pci lots. Not everyone has an Amiga 3000di mediator which has the 3.3 volt slots. So if Sonnect can work on a 5 volt slot, more people would be able to grab one and test on their mediators. I guess....

Last edited by Morphix on 24-Mar-2015 at 02:11 PM.

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terminills 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 12:35:22
#50 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1472
From: Unknown

@Morphix

My info came directly from sonnet.

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Morphix 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 14:12:44
#51 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Aug-2009
Posts: 449
From: Greece

@terminills

Are you talking about the 7200 g3 model which is mentioned on the EAB topic ?

_________________
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Xmas87 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 14:18:27
#52 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2013
Posts: 248
From: Unknown

@Morphix

They are not for sale at welovemacs. They are all out of stock.

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number6 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 15:23:13
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@Morphix

Quote:
May I ask from where this "30 sonnets only exist" info comes from? On the original EAB thread there is a link to welovemacs.com whete sonnet cards are still for sale.


Please see my post #41 this page.

Example, in case this helps with more exact identification:

MG3-400-512

Quote:
This product is no longer available.


Feel free to check the other model I listed or any other former resellers.

#6

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olegil 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 19:39:37
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@number6

welovemacs lists the 500mhz version as available, hge others not.

_________________
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Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Zylesea 
Re: sonnet ppc accelerator warpos compatible project in progress
Posted on 24-Mar-2015 21:41:08
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:

I disagree, Linux can run without video output, all it needs is RAM disk, and a terminal, and is most likely the easiest to support a board like that. How many routers, NAS boxes run some kind of embedded Linux, do you think?

OS4 or MOS, you need to visualize some services, I think it be difficult, but I am not going to say impossible.


MorphOS has a CGX driver for a virtual display. Could be a starting point. Kind of siamese system. A headless MorphOS with the 68k OS 3.x. Actually I like such hacks, but I even like it more if limited MorphOS development resources are all spent on the unevitable ISA switch.
Thumbs up for the WarpOS driver effort though.

_________________
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strim 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 25-Mar-2015 7:59:03
#56 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2011
Posts: 59
From: Warsaw, Poland

Quote:
you mean like patching on the fly at execution time? sounds much better.


The WarpOS patcher/wrapper is in development now. Maybe soon we'll be able to run normal WarpOS binaries.

Also Dennis discovered some bugs, so now he's focusing on implementing functionality necessary to debug running programs.

Last edited by strim on 25-Mar-2015 at 08:56 AM.
Last edited by strim on 25-Mar-2015 at 08:04 AM.
Last edited by strim on 25-Mar-2015 at 08:03 AM.
Last edited by strim on 25-Mar-2015 at 08:02 AM.

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HammerD 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 25-Mar-2015 16:04:02
#57 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 934
From: Ontario, Canada

@strim

I have a Sonnet and a couple of Mediator 4000's. But the Sonnet needs 3.3V and the Mediator 4000 doesn't have that...so my Sonnet isn't recognized :(

I gather some Mediators support 3.3V but only the "T" A1200 Mediator ?

_________________
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strim 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 25-Mar-2015 19:37:34
#58 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2011
Posts: 59
From: Warsaw, Poland

@HammerD

At least Mediator 3000Di and 1200TX do have 3.3V rail.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 25-Mar-2015 20:00:45
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@HammerD

It can possibly kill the Sonnet if you plug a 3.3V card in to a 5V PCI slot.

let's say the residence of sonnet is 10 ohm, (it's just a random number, nothing real)

I = V / R

I = 3.3V (power source) / 10 Ohm = 0.33 A
I = 5V (power source) / 10 Ohm = 0.5 A

You have card that is designed for max 3.3V or 0.33A (theoretically) plugged into slot that gives you 5VDC and 0.5A (theoretically).

Not there are combo cards that can be plugged into 3.3VDC or 5VDC but they are designed so they will not blow up.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-Mar-2015 at 08:03 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-Mar-2015 at 08:01 PM.

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strim 
Re: warpos compatible driver for sonnet ppc accelerator in progress
Posted on 25-Mar-2015 20:35:28
#60 ]
Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2011
Posts: 59
From: Warsaw, Poland

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
It can possibly kill the Sonnet if you plug a 3.3V card in to a 5V PCI slot.


I highly doubt that. There are separate 5V and 3.3V power rails in Mediators. I.e. Mediator 4000 just provides no voltage at all on 3.3V power pins.

And Sonnet seems to accept both 5V and 3.3V signalling. 3.3V rail is probably required to power the CPU and/or MPC107.

Last edited by strim on 25-Mar-2015 at 08:37 PM.

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