@Chain-Q
Quote:

TinyGL indeed supports TCL

Thats alone can explain 2-3 times speed up of opengl apps , nope ?

Quote:

Also there was no VBO support in MorphOS

You mean when quake3 port was done ?

Quote:

So you can't explain the difference with a different way of renderin

Differences in quake's results can be also minigl vs tinigl. I.e. warp3d drivers can be good enough, while minigl layer are not. To know the truth, something like Cow3D should be checked on morphos as well (cow3d are pure w3d app, so can test only w3d).

@Pampers
If you have some time, maybe you can run on your sam / mos3.8 "cow3d" test (that geit's port: http://www.geit.de/tmp/Cow3D5.lha). With defaults as it after run, with push "t" button after run, and with pushing "b" button after run. By this way we can compare warp3d driver's speed, without involving another layers.

Last edited by kas1e on 12-Apr-2015 at 09:50 PM.

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@kas1e

I have asked to test Cow3D already...the answer was, it is useless on MOS

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@kas1e

One may say that Warp3D is not discontinued, but MiniGL is deprecated in future..

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@mr2

Strange, they can't be useless, cow3d just by some ways (not one) do rendering (when those "t" or "b" buttons pressed), and test 2 popular warp3d functions for drawing stuff => what else we need to check to know speed differences between warp3d drivers.

All the other opengl tests invole opengl layers and who knows what-when-whatever happens. Also who knows what version of quake3 in use on morphos, it can be heavy optimized by bigfoot, who known to do optimization good.

Need something dumb enough for tests, which do tests few functions of one of the layers. Cow3d for warp3d can be good one. For opengl also need something little-easy, which will be compiled the same for both platforms.

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@amigakit
Quote:

One may say that Warp3D is not discontinued, but MiniGL is deprecated in future..

Yeah, gallium and blabla, but we know it may never happens or in 2050 :) So warp3d and minigl its our till death :)

Anyway, firstly we need to compare warp3d drivers, then we can know how different warp3d drivers are. Probably will be all the same, and so we will know that its TiniGL with hardware TCL do all the tricks mostly :)

Last edited by kas1e on 12-Apr-2015 at 09:51 PM.
Last edited by kas1e on 12-Apr-2015 at 09:50 PM.

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@kas1e

Cow3d test is useless if you want a "fair" test as on MorphOS, for anything else than r200-based cards, you will currently have to use Wazp3d which goes through OpenGL. So you will have artificially added overhead. It probably is still faster but not "fair".

Also, after all what sense does it make to only test Warp3d as there is probably no Warp3d-only software that works on OS4? You will always have minigl added on top so test everything. MorphOS currently simply doesnt have such lowlevel API exposed to developers you can say that all tests are meaningless

@kas1e


...to be more precise the answer was " we don't have Warp3D. We have very fast wrapper for older cards but there is no wrapper for newer cards, plus Wazp3D"

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@kiero,mr2

If there is no hw wrapper for newer cards, then cow3d tests will be indeed unfair..

@kiero
But imho wazp3d on morphos will works over rave3d , i.e no pure software rendering, but "software-emualtion-of-w3d-functions-which-go-throuch-rave", which in end will be hw accelerated but with little overhead added by wazp3d ?

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@kas1e

As i wrote above, rave3d and MorphOS own Warp3D emulation work only up to r200-based cards. It is deprecated. If You want to have Warp3D for newer cards You have to use Wazp3D which will use TinyGL which will use its own set of dedicated drivers.

@kiero
Quote:

If You want to have Warp3D for newer cards You have to use Wazp3D which will use TinyGL which will use its own set of dedicated drivers.

Yep, that what i mean. And what also mean, that we can use Cow3D to do unfair, but almost fair test :) Sure, we need to add some more fps when comparing , but at least, we can see if there will be difference in 2 or 3 times, as it shown by quake3.

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@kas1e

Sure, if someone is interested in such test he should compile the sample and see. Unfortunately i dont have time to waste on it right now and it is enough for me that "the whole package" is so much faster.

It should be interesting to see this Cow3D on AROS

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@Boot_WB

Quote:

Boot_WB wrote: If I were Hans, the fact that they exist at all is something of which I'd be greatly proud. ... Give credit where it's due.

If Hans would have been a hobbyist learning to program drivers for fun, coming here saying "Hey Guys, look what I managed to do, something moves here and it doesn't crash!", well then I'd agree.

But this is a commercial endeavor where someone first sold a 3000 EUR (or 1000 EUR for SAM) computer bundled with PCI-E GFX cards that would mean super-duper 3D performance. But there were no drivers. Not for very long time. Then came driver, but only 2D. And some of the users had to pay extra money for them since they suddenly wasn't part of OS4. Many years later a new OS4 version is released, the Final Edition. But they don't have the drivers, only some very basic ones that you can use to set up your computer or so, but that's all. You have to buy them! Some kind of 3D drivers then gets released. But they cost extra. And for some reason they are not for the GFX card people were sold bundled with their computers, now they have to buy a fancy NEW GFX Cards for the 3D driver (bought separately) to work. But in the end you don't get the 800+FPS in Quake3 demo your new HD7000/R7 card could provide, you get 20-50FPS. And some are happy because it's above 25FPS hence it's not a slide show but moving. But come on - on Quake3, on a Radeon7000/R7?

I don't want to disrespect Hans at all at a personal level. I'm sure he is a good guy. I'm sure he tried his best. But the poor FPS result in the commercial context and the dubious practice of first selling a product that was supposed to have a certain feature, and then constantly make customers buy more and more stuff separately, and then even demanding that customers buy new hard ware because your drivers you are NOW selling demands them, and they will deliver performance comparable to a cripled 400MHz Efika5k2 with an old R300 card. That sucks! Everything about it! Give credit where credit is due? Well, I'm sure they have seen a lot of credit cards due to this, which should be good enough for them...

And the result are so crappy, that I doubt it will be able to "tweak" them as some people seem to hope. I think it suggest some big things, like wrong choices of some technology, something implemented completely wrong or whatever. I doubt any "optimizing" will give much when the starting point is this unbelievable low.

AeonKit: "A-EON plans further public updates very soon - there are some updates being beta tested right now that should boost performance even more."

Well, I guess we will see soon then, and let's hope for the best...

@kas1e
Quote:

Thats alone can explain 2-3 times speed up of opengl apps , nope ?

No. Advantage of TCL is highly dependent on the actual application and tons of other factors.

Quote:

You mean when quake3 port was done ?

No. I mean in general.

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@Chain-Q

TCL will give a huge increase in speed, especially if you are dealing with 100000+ verticies like more modern games.

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@kiero

I'm confused my impression was that GOA was the Warp3D wrapper.
So what is Rave3D, or are we taking about different competing 3D implementations?

Rave3D?

http://www.osnews.com/story/2345/Interview_Nicholas_Blachford_Eclipsis_Project_Manager_on_MorphOS/page2/

Written in 2002

Quote:

5A. Will there be *hardware accelerated* 3D support and OpenGL? Nicholas Blachford: There is Hardware 3D support via the Rave3D and Warp3D APIs. OpenGL API compatible support in hardware and software is being worked on for a number of cards. We expect to be able to provide good support for ATI cards in the future.

Goa3D?

http://www.biclodon.com/software/goa/

Written in 2003.

Quote:

Warp3D was an accelerated 3D library for AmigaOS. It is emulated on the top of MorphOS' own 3D API.

Quote:

Goa is now part of MorphOS and was released in august 2003 with MorphOS1.4 and its 3D drivers. It's available for legacy reason. New software development should better use MorphOS OpenGL compatible library: tinygl.library

What happened to Goa, was it dropped?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Apr-2015 at 07:14 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Apr-2015 at 07:12 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Apr-2015 at 07:10 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Apr-2015 at 07:07 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

I'm confused my impression was that GOA was the Warp3D wrapper.

It was and still is.

Quote:

So what is Rave3D, or are we taking about different competing 3D implementations?

Rave3D was MorphOS's lowlevel 3d api. Very much like Warp3D is for AmigaOS. They had really similar level of functionality.

Quote:

What happened to Goa, was it dropped?

It was not dropped but as it depends on Rave3D which was dropped due to being too limited it only works for cards for which Rave3D driver exists. This is all cards up to r200. All 3D work in MorphOS is focused on OpenGL/TinyGL which has it's own lowlevel drivers but their API is private. There probably will be new Warp3D wrapper in the future. Something similar to Wazp3D which will use OpenGL instead of Rave3D.

@kas1e

I used Quake 3 from here: http://morphos-files.net/find.php?find=quake+iii

Cow3D on my Sam460 with Wazp3d and default settings gives around 77-80 fps

@pampers

Quote:

Cow3D on my Sam460 with Wazp3d and default settings gives around 77-80 fps

So, if we will add some overhead to wazp3d->tinigl conversion , it will be about 80-90fps with "normal warp3d wrapper" i assume.

And then, Radeon X1950 (mos, 80-90fps) vs RadeonHD7750 (aos4, 120fps). And if i understand google results right, RadeonHD7750 is about 170% better than radeon1950, and so , cow3d on os4 with radeonhd7750 on sam460 should give about 160-180 fps to be on the same level.

Of course that compare _very_ unfair, and very sucky (as we need to check the same gf x board , and wazp3d->tinigl conversion may take more than just few fps), but at least it prove my idea that all the speedy fun on morphos done via TiniGL and more modern lowlevel 3d api, which allow usage of TCL and stuff. That probably why quake3 is faster in 3 times : hardware TCL in opengl layer / drivers make big since.

Last edited by kas1e on 13-Apr-2015 at 10:33 AM.

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@Seiya

that would be unfair :)

I have cow3d but I am not sure if it is the same as what is used here for comparation. If someone crosscompiles it for Aros I would test it (on my Windows hosted version)

I get 4800 FPS on average

Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Apr-2015 at 10:51 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 13-Apr-2015 at 10:47 AM.