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/  Forum Index
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      /  Mono C# on Amiga?
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fishy_fis 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 10-May-2015 12:03:48
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1710
From: Australia

Quite a telling proclamation.

And Im not talking about c#

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EDanaII 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 10-May-2015 14:38:59
#22 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Dec-2011
Posts: 69
From: Unknown

@ micalsc

Quote:
Having c# on amigos (let it be AmigaOS, AROS, Morphos or whatever) would be a big deal for me. IMHO it would be much better than having java :)


Ditto. I'd happily pay for a bounty for this. Even one that was no more than just the compiler.

@ KimmoK

Quote:
To me it's power is currently in good tools (MSStudio), but under the hood it's a mess. Slow, "bloated" and unpredictable results etc... when compared to normal binaries.


I can use Visual Studio to code Amiga applications. It's much easier, unfortunately, to use than anything available for the Amiga currently. (I also use Eclipse, which I prefer...) Mical is right, however, C# is not that bad, and it's certainly a pleasure to use when compared to C++. I'm no M$ lover, but even bad men can do good things and this is one of the few things Microsoft got right.

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BrianHoskins 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 10-May-2015 15:37:09
#23 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2003
Posts: 696
From: South Wales, UK

@Massi

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that statement Massi, but this has not been my experience of Visual C# at all. The only thing I can figure is that you're trying to write programs where the guts of the program shares a single thread with the GUI. In order to write a responsive GUI based program in C# you need the form to be on its own thread and the guts of the program, the processing parts, to be on another thread. This is easily accomplished with the help of a background worker or by simply starting and using your own threads.

If this is in fact what you've been doing then I can't understand why you're having so much trouble with it. For me GUI programs in Visual C# have been a real joy to write.

In my opinion, Visual Studio is a fantastic development environment and C# is a really nice language. I was a but reluctant to use it at first, having come from a C/C++ background, but now that I've got a handle on C# I would not want to go back to C++.

I still use C for embedded software projects, where that kind of language makes the most sense. For Windows or Linux based projects, I prefer C#.

Although I run Linux full time at home, and would not go back to Windows, I do miss Visual Studio and .net. Mono is a pretty good alternative.

Last edited by BrianHoskins on 10-May-2015 at 03:40 PM.
Last edited by BrianHoskins on 10-May-2015 at 03:39 PM.

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BrianHoskins 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 10-May-2015 15:49:20
#24 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2003
Posts: 696
From: South Wales, UK

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
C# & NET

At least with instrumentation and NI tools, it gave me a lot of headache. NI used one version of .NET, our SW used another and drivers was build with another...
NI forums mainly told to stay away from .NET, especially if there are some realtime needs.
For me things usually work when I put 100-500ms delay every now and then in my code...



I am interested. What work have you done (or are you doing) with NI instrumentation? I have some experience of this and I am interested to compare it with yours.

When I started playing with NI stuff, I learnt how to use Labview and I put some programs together to control some test instruments and run some cycles. It worked fine, but I didn't ever manage to get on with the graphical programming environment. Wiring variables up to boxes for storing stuff to disk etc; really annoying. I can spout out a text based equivalent in a lot less time. I also found it quite difficult to get an overview of what someone else's graphical based programs in Labview were doing. It's generally quite difficult to figure out other people's software no matter what the language, but I found it a lot harder in Labview than in a text based language.

At my place we decided to re-write some of our existing Labview based solutions in C# and we found ginormous speed increases. Labview is painfully slow in comparison. Mind you; we were using a rather old version of Labview. V8.x I think. Maybe things have improved since then. Even if they have, give me a text based language any day.

So on my experience, I would have said the opposite to the NI forums. I would say avoid the NI stuff! Their instrumentation hardware is very good, but Labview is a bit... meh.

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cdimauro 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 10-May-2015 20:55:54
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1832
From: Germany

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote:
@Steady

One of the nice features of AmigaOS is that it doesn't have C# or .NET. I know MS is playing that they are open but based on their past performance no thanks. Better tools not tied to a convicted monopolist already exist so why bother with potential future vendor lock in.

C# and a big part of .NET are ECMA standards, so there's no possibility of vendor lock-in anymore. At least for those parts.

For the remaining part of .NET Microsoft provides a binding contract that states that there'll be no action if someone'll use Microsoft's patents for its own implementation. So, again, I don't see any vendor lock-in possible.

I don't like C-like languages, but my favorite is C# if I have to use one of this family (Python is my top one).

Regarding .NET, it's a shame that Microsoft haven't released also WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation), because writing GUI applications is a piece of cake. For my experience, it's the best way for writing them:
- with XAML I've reconsidered using XML as a DDL. Describing the GUI layout is very easy even editing its XML!
- Microsof's Blend is an incredible piece of software for graphic artists that want to design GUI (including custom controls);
- Visual Studio is a very comfortable and productive IDE.

Regarding the latter, there's a (very good IMO) new that might be considered by the post-Amiga o.ses which make use of GDB for debugging: Open Sourcing Visual Studio’s GDB/LLDB Debug Engine .

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Yssing 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 10-May-2015 21:46:35
#26 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 919
From: Unknown

While it would be nice to have more choices, I would still rather see a newer and better implementation of Free Pascal and Lazarus.
But I am biased towards Pascal, since that is what I use at work.

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Steady 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 1:26:18
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2004
Posts: 163
From: Melbourne, OZ

@itix

Thanks for the feedback Itix. These are the kinds of questions I wanted answered to see if it is worth looking into.

I personally have no interest in porting all of .NET. It is huge and would just give the possibility of running some "Windows" programs on Amiga. If that's the case, may as well get a cheap Windows box that runs it natively.

My main driver was the creation of a cross-amiga-platform framework and using the CIL to support CPUs.

So far, it looks like my idea isn't going to fly, but I feel it had to be at least discussed.

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Steady 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 1:29:04
#28 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2004
Posts: 163
From: Melbourne, OZ

@Tomppeli

Quote:

Tomppeli wrote:
@KimmoK

[quote]
@Steady
Amiga-E# ?!
C++ wrapper classes around Amiga system libraries to make usage of them more object oriented like.


Isn't that what Feelin' was? It looked nice, but didn't seem to catch on. Perhaps (and I'm guessing here) because people just didn't want to learn another API ... and yes, that would be an issue for this proposal too.

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Steady 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 1:30:39
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2004
Posts: 163
From: Melbourne, OZ

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
@Steady

Unless there already happens to be an MSIL JIT compiler for PPC, it's not going to happen...


My understanding is that there is at least an interpreter and I thought the JIT was also there but I have not looked too deeply at that.

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cdimauro 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 6:23:09
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1832
From: Germany

@Steady

Quote:

Steady wrote:
@itix

I personally have no interest in porting all of .NET. It is huge and would just give the possibility of running some "Windows" programs on Amiga. If that's the case, may as well get a cheap Windows box that runs it natively.

But nobody complains when there are Linux programs to be ported on a post-Amiga o.s.. Nobody complains about porting Qt for helping on that. And nobody complains for the introduction of the anti-Amiga o.s. "shared objects".

Strange...

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Steady 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 7:22:25
#31 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2004
Posts: 163
From: Melbourne, OZ

@cdimauro

I don't have a problem with it either, I just personally wouldn't be interested in doing it.

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KimmoK 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 8:09:22
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5038
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@BrianHoskins

I have looked into LabView, but IMO it's harder if one is used to traditional programming.
I Think I have tried three times to use it professionally. It seems good for building wrappers around third party drivers etc but for more complex stuff it needs practice & more learing.

In 1995-1996 I did my graduation thesis with NI CVI & C language. (fast to do GUI apps and to use NI tuned drivers etc, but executables required 1Mb engine, just to say "Hello World".
1996-2010 I did other programming & design & testing work (C, C++, Rhapsody, no NI tools).
2012-2013 I did production support work and used NI CVI & TestStand & C.
2014 I started to implement a automated testing system for mobile device R&D testing. Made some experiments with LabView & TestStand & CVI & MeasurementsStudio & C#. Ended up using only C# and VisualStudio as the existing codebase and NI tools integration started to look like they need too much work (+more expensive licences).

My automated test system still runs from command line as the "real work" has required all my time, so far, no time for fancy GUI yet.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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Massi 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 10:03:13
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 516
From: Rome, Italy

@BrianHoskins

Well, in that project I remember Java and C# being discarded in favor of C++.
It was a project where the GUI part had to be rendered according to strict time requirements. The GUI itself consisted of many objects to be plotted all at once.

I guess otherwise C# is OK for many applications (but surely not for all).

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broadblues 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 14:19:12
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4119
From: Portsmouth England

@Massi

Quote:

I guess otherwise C# is OK for many applications (but surely not for all).


That surely describes every language on the planet?

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broadblues 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 14:32:20
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4119
From: Portsmouth England

@cdimauro

Quote:

But nobody complains when there are Linux programs to be ported on a post-Amiga o.s.. Nobody complains about porting Qt for helping on that. And nobody complains for the introduction of the anti-Amiga o.s. "shared objects".

Strange...


What's strange is your comment given the vitriol sprayed by various parties at various about all of the above (except perhaps Qt which very much Alfkil's private project to start, so drew much more muted critism).

@thread

I know little about c# or .NET but more languages are generally good, however if the effort is huge, consider whether it might not be easier and more productive, even more fun, to write applications using currently available langauges (we have fair few).

I'd rather a keen developer wrote agreat application they would enjot using themselves, than burnt themselves out porting, optimising and maintaing a beast of programing language environment...

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Massi 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 17:51:43
#36 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 516
From: Rome, Italy

@broadblues

Actually not ... C for example is much more "general purpose".

_________________
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cdimauro 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 20:31:58
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 1832
From: Germany

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

But nobody complains when there are Linux programs to be ported on a post-Amiga o.s.. Nobody complains about porting Qt for helping on that. And nobody complains for the introduction of the anti-Amiga o.s. "shared objects".

Strange...


What's strange is your comment given the vitriol sprayed by various parties at various about all of the above (except perhaps Qt which very much Alfkil's private project to start, so drew much more muted critism).

I don't understand what kind of problems you have with what I've written.
Quote:
@thread

I know little about c# or .NET but more languages are generally good, however if the effort is huge, consider whether it might not be easier and more productive, even more fun, to write applications using currently available langauges (we have fair few).

The effort is huge. Maybe starting from Mono can be a good idea, since it runs on several hardware platforms, but still there's a lot of work to do.

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itix 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 20:56:52
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@Steady

Quote:

I personally have no interest in porting all of .NET. It is huge and would just give the possibility of running some "Windows" programs on Amiga. If that's the case, may as well get a cheap Windows box that runs it natively.


If you write "native" Amiga program in C# then it is very likely there is better and more advanced C# version for Windows anyway... .NET is huge but there is very little you could leave out. There is of course some obsolete APIs from C# 1.x era what should not be used anymore but not that much.

Quote:

My main driver was the creation of a cross-amiga-platform framework and using the CIL to support CPUs.


I like that idea. But at the same time it is very bad idea have native System.Amiga.Drawing namespace conflicting with System.Drawing implementation. It would be even worse because Amiga bitmaps have even more limitations than GDI+ bitmaps what .NET is internally using in Windows.

.NET is indeed very Win32 centric inside... Luckily you dont have to know anything about Win32 API. Except when you get an obscure Win32 exception thrown out (We still target x86 although we develop and run on x64 machines these days...)

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broadblues 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 21:15:17
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4119
From: Portsmouth England

@cdimauro

Quote:

I don't understand what kind of problems you have with what I've written.


Your statement "But nobody complains about" followed by short list thngs many people have complained and derided others for, seemed a bit strange.

Perhaps something was lost in translation....

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itix 
Re: Mono C# on Amiga?
Posted on 11-May-2015 21:17:41
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@Massi

But C is quite low level language. Object oriented languages are much nicer when your project get large. And not only nicer but more productive.

Except that I dont like C++ at all...

Last edited by itix on 11-May-2015 at 09:18 PM.

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