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PosterThread
olegil 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 13-May-2015 12:08:07
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@broadblues

However, there is something called FPGA-to-ASIC conversion, and it should fit the minimig nicely. Include the functionality of the PIC/ARM and the 68k (Possibly also the RAM?) into the FPGA first, then look into converting all of it to an ASIC. Should be possible to shave quite a significant cost off by doing this, if the volumes are big enough.
Edit: I realize that this COULD mean a sub-100 USD minimig with screen, keyboard, battery and enclosure is possible, negating my own point.

Last edited by olegil on 13-May-2015 at 01:07 PM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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KimmoK 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 13-May-2015 13:15:35
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@olegil

>sub 100 means sub-25 for the CPU alone, so the 1.2GHz 2-core T1 is too expensive for such an endeavor

Yep.
I have not yet spotted any real estimation of the price for T1014, have you?


( http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/components/displayCollateral.jsp?code=T1024_BD_1&iframe=true&height=510&width=910
(should be pin compatible with T1022, T1042 and with T2081 (in theory)))

Last edited by KimmoK on 13-May-2015 at 01:16 PM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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olegil 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 13-May-2015 13:41:32
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@KimmoK

Nope. Is it still coming?

If that is below 25USD, coming in around 100EUR for the complete product as a mini-ITX is possible (yet not very plausible). If a suitable laptop shell can be found, I have an idea of doing the PCIe opposite of what is usual. Make it a straddle-mount connector suitable for having the graphics card inline with motherboard, then make a riser so it can be standing the normal way up if user is more comfortable with that. This would also be awesome in a slimmed-down version of the X500+

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Trekiej 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 13-May-2015 14:09:16
#44 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Oct-2006
Posts: 890
From: Unknown

@thread
With today's tech. I wonder how small a c64 or A1200 could be made.
A wearable computer would be interesting.

_________________
John 3:16

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olegil 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 14-May-2015 8:40:45
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Trekiej

Now you're obviously talking ASICs, as it's a philosophical question rather than a realistic one

C64: pretty small, a single ASIC with minimal support components should be able to do it just fine. SID emulation still is a bitch, though. I figure someone NEEDS to make a SID replacement ASIC soon. Maybe fit in the back of a 2 inch LCD?

A500: here you're looking at something in the 3-inch LCD domain. Imagine taking all the chips on a minimig into the FPGA package and replacing all the D-Subs with much tinier connectors. Maybe MicroHDMI?

A1200: needs a fairly big device, everything gets a lot more complex in 32 bit than 16. If an ASIC was to be made with AGA support I would hope it also had Buster and Mediator capabilities built-in.

However, a hand-held Amiga makes no sense until someone makes a good keyboard/mouse/joystick emulation. A 3 inch device with a 3-inch keyboard that has mouse and joypad buttons, using touch screen for the mouse movements could of course be done. Might not be too bad.

Obviously, this is something it's possible to implement around a minimig today, then shrink later.

And here's the crux of the problem. Every time we discuss laptops or handhelds or something, it can always be tried out using todays technology then shrunk later, but noone seems to want to DO it. Everyone wants the finished result, but at zero risk and effort.

Last time it was the 460Ex we discussed, where I found all the parts needed to make it into a laptop, and discovered that given a suitably large laptop shell it's probably possible to make one now for your personal use. Once a device has been made, drivers for laptop'y things become needed and should be worked on (power consumption, charging cycle counters, suspend to disk etc). Hardware wise one would need to strip connectors off the board, replacing with wires, to save vertical space. sintered copper heat pipes can be bought for prototyping, so a laptop cooler can be made.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Rob 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 14-May-2015 11:55:44
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@olegil

There's already Minimig design that measures 110x65mm and has through-holes for the I/O.

http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/mini-minimig/mini-minimig.htm

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olegil 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 14-May-2015 15:32:05
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Rob

still not small and cheap enough

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 14-May-2015 17:40:38
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@olegil

Btw, for anyone who needs in-circuit programming of a PIC at 3.3V: Use a DIP to select power for just the PIC, either 3.3V for running or 5V for programming. I see this mini-minimig suffers from lack of in-circuit programming of the PIC because it's 3.3V.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Chuckt 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 0:55:43
#49 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2008
Posts: 445
From: Unknown

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@olegil

Btw, for anyone who needs in-circuit programming of a PIC at 3.3V: Use a DIP to select power for just the PIC, either 3.3V for running or 5V for programming. I see this mini-minimig suffers from lack of in-circuit programming of the PIC because it's 3.3V.


Maybe it is because of the difficulty for those who make electronics but there is a fix.

Mixed Voltage Systems: Interfacing 5V and 3.3V Devices

http://www.savagecircuits.com/content.php?85-Mixed-Voltage-Systems-Interfacing-5V-and-3-3V-Devices

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Raffaele 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 2:40:48
#50 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1906
From: Naples, Italy

@Trekiej

Quote:

Trekiej wrote:
@thread
With today's tech. I wonder how small a c64 or A1200 could be made.
A wearable computer would be interesting.


@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@Trekiej
C64: pretty small, a single ASIC with minimal support components should be able to do it just fine. SID emulation still is a bitch, though. I figure someone NEEDS to make a SID replacement ASIC soon. Maybe fit in the back of a 2 inch LCD?


Actually Jeri Ellsworth shrinked C64 in a Joystick with Flash ROM for 30 games and called it C64-Direct-To-TV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C64_Direct-to-TV



It was originally priced US$ 59 if I remember well.

Tulip Computers in Netherlands sold 250.000 units of it.

Seems that a firm called Uncrate by "ZombieCorp" (?) is selling it again at 20 US$.

http://uncrate.com/stuff/commodore-64-joystick-with-30-games/

It is remaining only one in stock at Amazon and price raised at 85 $.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000701CSM/ref=nosim/uncrate-20

If you want to transform it in a "real" C64 there were made modding hacks to transform it and adding keyboard and interchangeable memory sticks.

(Check on Google for hacks)

Last edited by Raffaele on 15-May-2015 at 02:49 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 15-May-2015 at 02:46 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 15-May-2015 at 02:44 AM.
Last edited by Raffaele on 15-May-2015 at 02:43 AM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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olegil 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 4:50:50
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Raffaele

Everyone knows about that one, but it's hardly going to classify as "wearable", is it? Also, that's using an ASIC, just like I'm suggesting for the minimig. You'll need to sell a few boards to justify the NRE cost of the ASIC, but it's been done before.

Last edited by olegil on 15-May-2015 at 04:52 AM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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KimmoK 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 8:43:14
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5211
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@olegil

>Nope. Is it still coming?

To me it seems they have updated T1014/1024 related documents in April 2015, so it seems that work on those chips continues.
btw... it seems T1024 should become available for USD37+tax. So, most likely, neither T1014 would be below 25...

Last edited by KimmoK on 15-May-2015 at 08:46 AM.

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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olegil 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 12:13:00
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@olegil

I guess there is one place where one could "wear" a joystick, but this is not that sort of forum

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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olegil 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 12:30:05
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Chuckt

Mostly a series resistor works just fine for me, but that single MOSFET solution was awesome. Thanks. I can see why I hadn't thought of that myself, since it's using a parasitic diode as a feature instead of a bug

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Chuckt 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 16:40:07
#55 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2008
Posts: 445
From: Unknown

@olegil

There are other products to consider like PSOC or FreeSoC2.

It is simply a system on a chip where you can design digital and analog circuits and program any pin. It can support 5V and 3.3V circuits and you can also program it with cores like the Arduino core. It is probably more versatile than your PIC.



Last edited by Chuckt on 15-May-2015 at 04:41 PM.

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Nameless 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 19:58:04
#56 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Nov-2008
Posts: 315
From: Unknown

@olegil

FPGA-to-ASIC was basically what I had in mind when I mentioned my 'dream amiga' being a 68K retro handheld device w/screen. Otherwise it wouldn't really fit so well, or be cheap enough.

Another option which would certainly be a lot cheaper in regard to upfront costs, is to take a simple ARM device, be it something like this $9 computer, or Pi 2, paired up with JIT ARM. Slap it into a little Amiga-ish case, include all roms, and it may be close enough, at least for some people.

How much would it cost to create something like this, but pair it up with a super cheap FPGA, one just big enough to hold AGA/Amiga chipsets, but not the CPU? Then use JIT ARM for the CPU stuff? Does it make sense at all to even go that route?

I seem to recall Clone A thinking of doing something like that, but with MIPs instead of ARM.

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Fransexy 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 21:10:23
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@Nameless

Quote:
Another option which would certainly be a lot cheaper in regard to upfront costs, is to take a simple ARM device, be it something like this $9 computer, or Pi 2, paired up with JIT ARM. Slap it into a little Amiga-ish case, include all roms, and it may be close enough, at least for some people.


it's done:

http://www.armigaproject.com/


Well almost if only Android wouldn't be required and the disk drive would work directly and not only for ADF dumping

_________________
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Make Amiga Great Again

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Nameless 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 21:26:43
#58 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Nov-2008
Posts: 315
From: Unknown

@Fransexy

Eh, not exactly what I was thinking of. The disc drive stuff is probably the least important hardware factor in my mind. And floppy dumps to adf would seem really sort of useless to me. It's also too expensive.

To me, a retro 68K device either needs to be dirt cheap ($50) and marketed properly, probably focusing on games. Or if closer to $100, sort of go all out, handheld gaming device.

The idea would be to get enough sales to revive a small developer base, probably meaning at a min. 50K-100K+ sales. It'd have to appeal to users outside of this forum, go full retro nostalgia, and disc drive stuff would be meaningless (and probably a negative... most people don't exactly have fond memories of loading games via disc).

Just what I'd hope for, anyway. Don't wish to say anything negative about the Armiga thing, but it wasn't really what I had in mind.

Last edited by Nameless on 15-May-2015 at 09:27 PM.

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amigadave 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 15-May-2015 23:05:59
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1731
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@Nameless,

I can understand your points about the Armiga project, and definitely agree that any retro project would need to sell in the 50,000 to 100,000 number of units, in order to provide any kind of resurgence in programming for 68k Amiga games and programs.

@fransexy,

As an owner of hundreds of old floppy based Amiga games and productivity programs, the Armiga project is actually interesting to me. It needs 2 more USB ports in my point of view, so it would be possible to connect a keyboard, mouse, joystick, and still leave a USB port open for accessing a USB memory stick.

Does anyone here own an Armiga, or even know of any other person who owns an Armiga and is on the Beta Testing Team? I have never seen hardly any info about the Armiga here, or on any other Amiga forum sites. I wouldn't mind learning more about it and it's specifications, or how it works. Does it use AROS for ARM devices, or some version of UAE? What ARM chip does the Armiga use? When was it first designed, and what are the plans for it's future development? The Armiga website provides very few answers to any of these questions, and since there has not been much discussion on any of the Amiga forum sites about this product, it is hard to form an opinion about it.

Edit:

It would be great to see the Apollo Team finish their work and find the financial backing to produce a truly high performance, hand held Amiga compatible game machine, with additional ports that could expand it for more productive computer work and network connectivity when desired. Something that could surpass the success of the C64 in a joystick and sell hundreds of thousands of units to a market that includes people outside the former and current Amiga fans.

Last edited by amigadave on 15-May-2015 at 11:11 PM.

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Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

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Rob 
Re: The First $9 Computer
Posted on 16-May-2015 0:19:24
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6344
From: S.Wales

@amigadave

Quote:
I can understand your points about the Armiga project, and definitely agree that any retro project would need to sell in the 50,000 to 100,000 number of units, in order to provide any kind of resurgence in programming for 68k Amiga games and programs.


You'd need those sort of volumes to produce an ASIC and get the price down anyway.

Quote:

It would be great to see the Apollo Team finish their work and find the financial backing to produce a truly high performance, hand held Amiga compatible game machine, with additional ports that could expand it for more productive computer work and network connectivity when desired. Something that could surpass the success of the C64 in a joystick and sell hundreds of thousands of units to a market that includes people outside the former and current Amiga fans.


If you were going to make an ASIC for mass production then Jens' Clone A chip cores are probably the ones to go for. They were developed by analyzing the the real chips in operation and each chip was individually tested by dropping FPGA version into an A500 motherboard to make sure they worked properly with the real chips. The last thing you want to do is commit something to ASIC that's not fully compatible, although from experience the Minimig core is pretty mature but I haven;t extensively tested it.

If your building a 68k core into an ASIC you should need a fancy Apollo core to get good speed and it could be quite some time before Apollo is mature enough to commit to ASIC. An incomplete core with bugs in FPGA isn't a problem since you can update it later for free and existing customeraren't left in the cold.

Lastly, for mass market you really need the Amiga name to have a chance of selling properly.

Jens already tried getting getting a license from Amiga Inc and had a big financial backer ready to go but in the usual McBill way things went quiet before any deal was struck.

I don't know if Jens has tried since but I know he was pretty pissed off at the time.

In case you're not gamiliar with Clone A, you can read more here.

http://www.totalamiga.org/files/TA25_JensIviewExtract.pdf

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