Hello there!

@thread

Although I like the idea of a new [very accelerated] "68K style"
Amiga, NG 'emulation' would be very appreciated, as far as I am
concerned. Though I already have a Micro-C AmigaOne at home that
was booted-up on about 10 times since I got it [sadly it does not
boot-up anymore, so it sits there, unused].

A very big gripe I have though, is the constant 'tit-pauvre'
(little poor) mentality of 'that new Amiga NG computer is too
expensive and so and so...'. That, to me sounds like the very
worn out 78 Rpm record [remember these? ;) ]that plays the
same track over and over... So if I didn't see that comment
about a million time I have not seen it once! Don't you people
try to be more 'original'? LOL!

Sure, any Amiga computer never were inexpensive to buy; I
remember when I bought my very first Amiga 2000 [in 1988 or 1989,
I do not remember exactly]. I paid 4000$ (CDN) and it didn't have
a hard drive! BUT! I never complained one bit, and I was a
university student at the time... and not exactly very rich [thanks
to Quebec universities where tuition fees were not very high at the
time, compared to that of other areas, even in Canada :) ] It was a
major expense... and due to the fact that the computer had an IBM
emulator, that Amiga 2000 sounded like a better investment than
buying one of those 'PC boxes'...

I still use Amigas [the 68K variety] up to this day for about 95%
of my everyday [both professional and 'play'] work. Though I do have
an IMac G5, I rarely use it...

See you all! / A la prochaine!

M.

@Megamania

the problem with comparing today with 80s and 90s is that we do have 2015 now

If NG is so advantageous and the price is no problem why do you not own a new one (working)?

That is the problem... a lot of people are defending the strategy but not owning one themselves because not enough interest in NG or more often price is not justifyable or simply they cannot afford one.

That is what I wrote... NG is not good enough and missing lots of software to compete in any way with the big platforms and for nostalgy 68k is enough.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 30-May-2015 at 02:11 PM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

and for nostalgy 68k is enough.

Enough? Then explain why most remaining skilled software developers leaved 68k for NG?

@pavlor

how many are left?

@pavlor

Rosetta doesnt emulate Classic Mac environment.

I think you mean Amithlon kind of environment where you rum 68k Amiga o.s. on x86.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@amigadave

The future of Amiga users is right here right now. What it is tomorrow is impossible to say because each user have different vision for the future.

Last edited by itix on 30-May-2015 at 02:59 PM.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@pavlor

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OS4 built-in 68k emulation offers nearly 100 % compatibility

Sorry but that's false, sure some well behaved old Amiga programs will run, a lot have DSI errors or random lock-ups at times though, I'd say it's closer to around 20% of old Amiga programs work properly, the lack of the custom chips breaks a lot of older software.

@itix

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Rosetta doesnt emulate Classic Mac environment.

I used Rosetta as example of possible solution of compatibility problems connected to platform change. In this case MorphOS on "x86".

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I think you mean Amithlon kind of environment where you rum 68k Amiga o.s. on x86.

Yes, but not in my Rosetta comparison.

@OlafS25

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That is the same reason why using PPC to avoid competition with Windows was wrong from beginning because people always compare alternatives before they decide to use/buy something.

You are rewriting history here. Some individuals may believe in this hypothesis but this was certainly not the reason why PowerPC hardware was introduced to the Amiga market way back when. In fact, even Intel were convinced that x86 processors were a deadend and invested billions of dollars in the Itanium CPU line and IA-64 architecture in the mean time.

Also, Microsoft had WindowsNT running on Alpha, MIPS as well as PowerPC processors for a time. So, when Amiga Technologies first announced plans to move AmigaOS to the PowerPC architecture, WindowsNT was available for the same CPU architecture.

Quote:

If someone asks you "What is the advantage of MorphOS?" (or AROS/AmigaOS) and this person is not a active amigan what would you say? If you have no real persuading answer then you have a problem. 68k has some interest because having fun and nostalgy but what is the purpose of "NG"?

You can experience fun and nostalgia if you run MorphOS on a ´dated´ Mac or AROS on an old x86 machine. Your definition of nostalgia appears to be rather narrow.

@danwood

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Sorry but that's false,

I think my words were misleading: I had in mind Petunia+RunInUAE.

@cdimauro

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cdimauro wrote: I cannot give a measure here, just some rough estimates. Emulating a 68000 or 68020 processor doesn't require that much. Suppose that no JIT is used (pure emulation), and that on average 100 cycles are needed to execute one 68K instruction, for a 8Mhz 68000 / 1.4 MIPS it takes 140M cycles, whereas a 14Mhz 68020 / 4.8 MIPS requires 480M cycles. Regarding the chipset, it performs 3.5M transactions/s, where a lot of things can happen for every single transaction because you have a lot different components that works at the same time. Here is very difficult to make an estimate.

Using dedicated processors for processor and chipset emulation will make better use of cache resources and allow many optimizations in general. It isn't without problems though - synchronization between the cores will be expensive so in some pathological cases it could perhaps run slower than the standard emulator design or at least much slower than the normal case.
The worst case was (IIRC) code that used the same loop to touch memory and chipset registers as one couldn't simply fast-path the detection but would end up with expensive context switches involving both the CPU core and the Chipset core.

@ASiegel

in this case I referred to official statements from Ben H. and the Frieden brothers who exactly used that.

Yes certainly you have some kind of nostalgia when running MorphOS (or AmigaOS) but obviously not enough for most users or at least 68k seems to be enough nostalgia for most obviously.

@pavlor

Rosetta approach in Amiga context pretty much mean using UAE.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@OlafS25

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official statements from Ben H. and the Frieden brothers who exactly used that.

Well, forum comments, official...

You certainly know this was only one of reasons they mentioned (compatibility being the primary reason).

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users or at least 68k

Most of these "68k users" don´t care about OS or hardware - they only want to play their favourite Amiga games.

@itix

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Rosetta approach in Amiga context pretty much mean using UAE.

If MorphOS Team decides port to another CPU architecture without maintaining compatibility (except UAE), it will be step to grave.

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @Boot_WB If someone asks you "What is the advantage of MorphOS?" (or AROS/AmigaOS) and this person is not a active amigan what would you say?

I'd give them some advantages I find over other OSes, and why that suits my needs.

Did you ever read the story of the town mouse and country mouse? :) I've no need, desire, or anything else to try to convince someone else to use it. Your perspective differs, as you roll your own distribution so presumably feel that user numbers are somehow indicative of the success of your work.

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If you have no real persuading answer then you have a problem.

Oh noes!

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68k has some interest because having fun and nostalgy but what is the purpose of "NG"?

42.

With this approach, one might ask what is the purpose of AROS68K - an NG OS targeting the most limited hardware platform with, until recent times (FPGA viability), the least promising future of all in terms of increasing cpu power (media, internet).

So why did people 'waste their time' on such an apparently dead-end approach? Could the answer be just for the fun, intellectual challenge, and satisfaction of doing it?

Last edited by Boot_WB on 30-May-2015 at 03:52 PM.

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

@pavlor

Quote:

Most of these "68k users" don´t care about OS or hardware - they only want to play their favourite Amiga games.

you dont need to exclude these amiga users who just want to play their games by putting them (as unworthy) in quotation marks, just because they happen not to be interested in the aspect you are interested in. it is software that best defines platform, because its what gets actually used. silicon and the operating system are just means to get the software to work, not anything essential as such.

@Boot_WB

Quote:

With this approach, one might ask what is the purpose of AROS68K - an NG OS targeting the most limited hardware platform with, until recent times (FPGA viability), the least promising future of all in terms of increasing cpu power (media, internet).

the purpose lays, as i wrote above, in software. 68k provides lowest common denominator as a platform for amiga software. it has an existing library, which judging by aminet is still growing fastest, has the most users and interest. aros on the other hand has multiple features the original os is lacking, is compatible and is actively maintained and developed. the problem is (as many see it) that aros needs to maintain multiple platforms, binary incompatible to each other. but this is also the case between mos, os4 and aros. all this is fragmenting user base, draining developer resources and limiting availability of software.

aros 68k is the most logical intersection containing the best of both worlds:
- it has features of an ng system
- it has binary compatibility to amiga software library, but not by means of emulation.
- in fact aros software is backwards compatible and runs on amiga without aros as long as it is in hunk format and isnt linked against aros exclusive libraries.
- aros68k runs without restriction on amiga emulators, allows for almost unlimited ram and rtg options.
- aros68k is theoretically able to run on almost any amiga configuration down to 68000 and 2 mb chipram and doesnt need exclusive foreign architecture processor expansions.

enough?

no.. apart from all else aros is open, and anybody willing can step up and try to help. even me. also its free to have, you are not wasting money on companies with doubtful abilities, morale and future. work invested in n aros will be preserved open no matter who walks away and can be continued.

Last edited by wawa on 30-May-2015 at 04:17 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 30-May-2015 at 04:12 PM.

@wawa

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you dont need to exclude these amiga users who just want to play their games

I don´t exclude them, far from that. I only insist these aren´t interested in powerful "NG" 68k platform (be it emulation or FPGA).

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it is software that best defines platform, because its what gets actually used.

Here we agree, that is why raised my concerns about MorphOS to "x86" port.

@pavlor

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I don´t exclude them, far from that. I only insist these aren´t interested in powerful "NG" 68k platform (be it emulation or FPGA).

you put them in quotation, as in being fake, not really amiga users by your definition. its pretty clear.