@wawa

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mazze is updating and including software in aros ports section. same source for all architectures.

@OlafS25

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In ideal case they just need to be recompiled. In case of applications it already works.

You both mean current games for AROS? As something appealing to classic gamers? Good to see I´m not lone BAF in town.

@wawa

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what features does aros lack in comparison to os4 as example?

AROS 68k? Hardware accelerated 3D drivers?

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petunia/trance is cpu emulation. you cant run os4 application on amiga without ppc accelerator no matter what.

You can´t run 68020 compiled applications on 68000, such argument is void.

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also in this respect 3.x is superior to os4.

Without doubt.

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besides the very low end systems may not need aros anyway. so its fine like it is.

Exactly!

@pavlor

I mean current ported games like Hurrican that are ported to Aros but not available for 68k. Unfortunately most games do not work at the moment, Tools/Utilities and Applications already do. When platforms are synchronized (already the case for X86 and ARM f.e.) you can port everything by simple recompiling on the target platform without any source changes. One of the advantages of AROS.

@WolfToTheMoon

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But Amiga technologies never released a PowerPC port of AOS.

In 1995, Amiga Technologies announced a cooperation with Phase 5 to bring PowerPC accelerator cards to A1200, A3000 and A4000 systems. While Amiga Technologies failed to deliver a PowerPC-native OS in time, Phase 5 did their part and released PowerPC extension boards.

By 2000, PowerPC had been established as the new processor architecture for demanding software applications on AmigaOS among users, developers and resellers.

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In 2000, the fastest desktop PPC CPU was 500 MHz G4. Intel and AMD were already crossing the 1 GHz barrier.

You might want to watch this: PowerPC G4 500 Mhz vs. Pentium III 1Ghz
While I am not endorsing Apple´s benchmark results, it is certainly worth pointing out that clock rate is hardly a reliable performance metric.

@ASiegel

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You might want to watch this: PowerPC G4 500 Mhz vs. Pentium III 1Ghz

In most tasks Pentium III and G4 have same performance at same MHz (except AltiVec of course).

@AmigaDave

You've done a great job here. Set up for another nice thread with page after page of the same old, same old. In the hours this has been created I was using my X1000 and my Sam440 for quite a bit of enjoyment -- wasting time, I guess. I'm going to do some more of that later this evening. The ongoing development of Amiga NG hardware and software has brought me so much enjoyment in recent years. Reading these same arguments from the same people on the same website during this time has been the real waste of my time.

Going forward, I will discipline myself to only check in at AW once every few days and avoid the threads that are not productive, that seem to be the grounds for people who do not appear to be enjoying themselves at all.

I am sorry to be rude, but you people are going in circles. It's your right to do so, so have at it.

I was absent from the Amiga scene for a few years and came back in the last decade. In that away time my assumption was Amiga was down and out and forgotten. Glad to have been wrong. I was and am excited to see there IS an Amiga scene and new stuff available to enjoy, with more on the way. To me the dadgum glass is not half full or half emtpy. From this standpoint, it's running over.

_________________

@OlafS25

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in this case I referred to official statements from Ben H. and the Frieden brothers who exactly used that.

Their views are hardly representative for all the NG options that you had referenced.

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Yes certainly you have some kind of nostalgia when running MorphOS (or AmigaOS) but obviously not enough for most users or at least 68k seems to be enough nostalgia for most obviously.

It is important to differentiate between differents forms of nostalgia. There are plenty of former Amiga owners who barely or even never used the OS but still have an attachment to specific games or application. They would likely be as content to run their favourite software titles on whatever mainstream computing platform they already own, which might be a computer, a tablet, a game console or a smartphone. For them, the OS hardly matters and you are unlikely to get them to support any OS development either as a user or developer, which does pose a challenge when you try to move a platform forward (no matter how small those steps may be).

Last edited by ASiegel on 30-May-2015 at 06:30 PM.

@pavlor

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@wawa Quote:what features does aros lack in comparison to os4 as example? AROS 68k? Hardware accelerated 3D drivers?

you are talking of warp3d, right? at least i dont know any other form of 3d acceleration os4 had. if so, you can use 68k version of wazp3d under aros68k winuae with its hardware accelerated backend.it certainly wont work with os4 on winuae, so im curious what other kind of hardware acceleration do you use?

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Quote: petunia/trance is cpu emulation. you cant run os4 application on amiga without ppc accelerator no matter what. You can´t run 68020 compiled applications on 68000, such argument is void.

pavlor, really gimme a break. no matter how you twist it, the difference between 68k processors is some updates to more-less the same instruction set. probably even if one wanted you could program a library trapping 68020 code for 68000 and patching it on the fly as it is the case on 040 or 060. only there is no necessity since pretty every binary useful for 68000 has its appropriate version.

ppc for that matter is completely different architecture. running 68k code on ppc is emulation, like it or not. you are really running out of arguments and it shows, im sorry.

Last edited by wawa on 30-May-2015 at 08:02 PM.

@pavlor

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You both mean current games for AROS? As something appealing to classic gamers? Good to see I´m not lone BAF in town.

the subset of aros game ports usable on amiga hardware will probably be about the size of the subset of os4 ports usable on amiga ppc accelerators. however this doesnt apply to aros68k under uae, as speed, graphics and ram bottlenecks are not existent here.

aros contribs and ports already contain some software that will run well enough on an amiga or uae. i know because i did or tested partly unreleased ports of this software to os3. certainly there will be some choice for everyone.

@wawa

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wawa wrote: @amigadave late insight...

What can I say........... I'm a slow learner!

I was also gone during the darkest years, when the worst fighting was going on, so I wanted to try out everything I had missed out on, before making any concrete decisions. Now that I have spent several years evaluating where we currently are and the reality of what can be accomplished with the remaining resources, I have a different view of the future than I did just a couple of years ago.

I don't want to discourage anyone from working on any of the current, or even future Amiga inspired projects. I have just made a personal choice and decision for myself.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@resle

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resle wrote: I never thought I'd see the day I would agree with anything AmigaDave says, but here you go. I think he's as right as it gets. Just a note: "68k" systems an order of magnitude faster than a 68060 exist today: UAE boxes. That's where my heart will remain ... until one of the projects AD mentioned really comes to completion.

Yeah, UAE makes the most sense, but the FPGA stuff has a geeky sort of satisfaction and provides some separation from the industry mainstream hardware that everyone owns. It allows a better, faster, hardware Amiga to be built, which has an appeal to many users who keep the Amiga in their heart as a hobby, and something to enjoy tinkering with.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@resle

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Just a note: "68k" systems an order of magnitude faster than a 68060 exist today: UAE boxes. That's where my heart will remain ... until one of the projects AD mentioned really comes to completion.

Yes, I agree, at least partially. I think emulation and hosting are currently the best ways to use Amiga and Amiga-like systems. It's really nice being able to run Workbench 3.1 or AROS in a window next to the most recent version of Chromium or VLC on a modern quad-core system.

As far as a dedicated UAE box, I think that would be interesting, but less useful. I've got to have my modern web browser and Unix tools/libraries/development environment.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@wawa

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if so, you can use 68k version of wazp3d under aros68k winuae with its hardware accelerated backend

WinUAE? Well yes, of course. However, I had Amiga (the real one) in mind.

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ppc for that matter is completely different architecture. running 68k code on ppc is emulation, like it or not. you are really running out of arguments and it shows, im sorry.

I never disputed such fact. But this emulation is so powerful, there is no difference between 68k and native applications. As 68000 version will work on 68020 (and not vice versa), same 68000 version will work on PowerPC (and again, not vice versa). I think you really underestimate work behind both AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS: such degree of compatibility feels (from user point of view) like natural progression from one CPU to another in the same CPU architecture.

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @amigadave You are including AROS there but the situation is a little different there. There is also a 68k branch that even runs on average amiga hardware without needing PPC. Wawa and me are right now working on a version for real hardware, there is a option to run it directly from a stick (Phoenixkonsole) and much more. The 68k branch is part of the AROS family and automatically benefitting from progress there. For me personally it is the best of both worlds, on one hand 68k and running most old software and at the same time being in development getting new features and software. Also interesting is AROS for Raspberry 2 native and of course all related work by Phoneixkonsole (aeros). Raspberry is potentially the perfect platform for AROS and offers the potential to win new users outside existing Community. Bur in general I share your view, the idea of "NG" to bring users and developers has failed, in my view it already failed before it started because both MorphOS and AmigaOS were too late already. 68k has a magnitudes higher codebase and that has not changed over the years so bringing better hardware to the 68k codebase is more promising than trying to make AmigaOS, MorphOS or AROS to compete with Windows, Linux or MacOS.

Honestly, I have not tried AROS for 68k, since a few years ago when I demo'd it on my FPGA Arcade Replay board at one of the AmiWest Shows. I will look at it again in the future, but I don't see how AROS on 68k can be better than AmigaOS3.x, until AROS for 68k is optimized and shrunk down to the same footprint of AmigaOS3.x. Perhaps this has already happened, and I just don't know it.

Although I occasionally use WinUAE, when I think of Amiga for 68k, I think of the original Amiga systems with Motorola CPU's, or hardware implementations, like MiniMig, FPGA Arcade Replay, Viper, and the future of the Apollo FPGA accelerators. I understand that UAE on the fastest, most modern Intel hardware is the most powerful way to run Amiga 68k OS and software, but it just does not register with me as the hobby way of enjoying the Amiga experience. In the future, I might feel the same way about all FPGA projects as I do today about AmigaOS4.x and MorphOS on PPC hardware, that it is a waste of time, effort and money, when UAE is so good. Today I don't feel that way.

Edit: I have just recently received my Raspberry Pi 2 and would like to demo AEROS for the Pi 2 at the up coming 30th Anniversary of Amiga event in Mountain View, California.

Last edited by amigadave on 30-May-2015 at 09:17 PM.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @pavlor Why shouldn´t they be interested in a powerful new 68k platform? Nothing makes more use of resources than games and there is no reason why not new ones could be ported. To run some old games with WHDLoad you do not need that of course.

If the idea is to just port existing software, a new 68K platform isn't appealing and doesn't make sense, since even with a low-cost PC you can have an excellent "68K experience" and you can run those games much better in their native platforms.

The only thing would be new, native, specific 68K software, which is very unlikely.

@OlafS25

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OlafS25 wrote: @cdimauro I know that you would prefer a real big break and as I understand it this planned for MorphOS at ISA change

We'll see for MorphOS, because it means also forking the o.s.: there'll be two different, incompatible, versions.
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but my thesis is that it is 10 years too late for that, at least if you want to do it successfully. A big break at the start would have had more chances with a OS that offers all modern features and has a Amiga inspired API making it easier to adapt the software for it. The problem is that most developers (here I mean 3rd party developers) have long left, many already in the 90s (visible when you look at aminet). For 68k integration you can use UAE but where do you get the native adapted software that justifies to use the OS?

That's the point. At the end the real problem is always the same: the (native) software. Which is missing...
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When you make a radical break you have a OS that runs 68k software in emulation but no other software. Hardly attracting new users either.

The same happens to every new, hobby o.s.. However I think that an Amiga-inspired o.s. is in a better position, due to the "nostalgia" factor. Remember that the Amiga sold around 5 millions machines.
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On Raspberry I see no reason why they would not use a amiga-inspired OS even without MP.

Because there are many competitors which offer a more solid, modern experience. How do you think to attract people which hasn't ever seen an Amiga before? There's very little chance; not impossible, but rare. IMO.

@pavlor

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WinUAE? Well yes, of course. However, I had Amiga (the real one) in mind.

on an amiga os4 wont even budge without ppc expansion, not to speak of 3d acceleration, which demands at least mediator bus board with radeon9xxx. by your argumentation this setup with its 7mb/s bus throughput and some 70mb ram limit will be likely too weak for any 3d software ported to os4. im not certain how much of ppc software including warpup titles actually still work on os4.1fe. aros opens at least an option for volunteers implementing hardware drivers in the future. with rigidly locked up system as os4 you are at mercy of its owners.

@pavlor

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pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: If I speak of apples and you answer about oranges, yes, everything becomes possible. Quote: And just to recap this part of discussion You: It cannot be done on a little-endian or 64-bit architecture. Forget it. Me: Rosetta? Done on little-endian or 64-bit architecture.

I've already explained in more detail the reasons why you are talking of a completely different thing.

You replied reporting only two sentences, "strangely" leaving out the other which defined the context, and continue repeating "Rosetta" like a parrot.

You also ignored itix which tried to explain that a Rosetta approach in an Amiga context (which was the start, and also the kernel, of the discussion, BTW) means... UAE (so: NO Trance/Petunia).

It's clear that you don't or don't want to understand, but it's not my problem anymore.
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Quote: I don't think that just a simple screen doubling can be so costly on a SAM with a Radeon HD card. I see your experience with emulators is rather limited. That explains your "answers". In UAE, you need far more CPU resources for hires/double lines configuration (in comparison to lowres/single lines). As even you wrote, chipset emulation is CPU intensive, for highres/double lines mode, you need 2 times more CPU power in both x and y directions.

I don't luck experience, but from what you reported it's clear that you have no idea of how an Amiga works and how it's emulated.

No, you do NOT require double the CPU power every time that you double the resolution in one direction.

I already tried to explain you that the Amiga chipset is a 3.5MTransaction/s machine. If you use lo-res, or if you use hires, there'll be always 3.5MTransaction/s. The same if you use interlace or not.

The Amiga games were usually at 320x200 or 320x256 without interlace, so you have to render the framebuffer at this resolution for every frame, whatever is the real resolution of your screen. After that, you have to just scale the framebuffer, which is a very fast operation even for a low-end CPU, and certainly it do NOT require double the CPU power (for every resolution doubling).

However, since you seem to be an expert about the Amiga emulation, you can show me how, technically, such doubling happens for each resolution doubling. You can go deep into details as much as you want, I have no problems following you.
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That may be not problem on faster G4 CPUs, but is too much for 440/460. If you have access to slower hardware (eg. faster Pentium II or slower Pentium III class), you may try it yourself.

The slowest hardware which I've is a dual-core, 1GHz, AMD C-50, so it's not possible to check it.

But honestly I prefer a technical explanation, since you seem to know many things about how an Amiga work, and emulating it. Thanks.

@ASiegel

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ASiegel wrote: @WolfToTheMoon Quote: But Amiga technologies never released a PowerPC port of AOS. In 1995, Amiga Technologies announced a cooperation with Phase 5 to bring PowerPC accelerator cards to A1200, A3000 and A4000 systems. While Amiga Technologies failed to deliver a PowerPC-native OS in time, Phase 5 did their part and released PowerPC extension boards.

Right, but... when Amiga Inc. started the Amiga o.s. port to PowerPC, aka OS4? It wasn't the 1995. It was the late 2000. And you have to take decisions based on THAT period.
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By 2000, PowerPC had been established as the new processor architecture for demanding software applications on AmigaOS among users, developers and resellers.

Nevertheless, that architecture wasn't a top notch anymore at the time. In fact, and as I already reported, Apple decided to abandon it and release the new Mac OS X just for x86. Yes, Apple: the co-founder of the PowerPC consortium.
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Quote: In 2000, the fastest desktop PPC CPU was 500 MHz G4. Intel and AMD were already crossing the 1 GHz barrier. You might want to watch this: PowerPC G4 500 Mhz vs. Pentium III 1Ghz While I am not endorsing Apple´s benchmark results, it is certainly worth pointing out that clock rate is hardly a reliable performance metric.

Indeed, it's very difficult to endorse Apple's benchmarks.

The day before the transition to the Intel processors they reported Apple's G5 machines "up to 2 times faster than PCs".

The day after the announcement of the transition they reported the new MacIntel machines "up to 4 times faster than the old G5s".

@mbrantley

I think AmigaDave just want to be in the winning future but it doesn't exist.
Quite frankly both side are enjoyable (68k vs PPC/X86/ARM).
To me what is lacking on NG is full memory protection and ressource tracking, maybe Arix will bring those features before anyone else.
While waiting I'll be playing with WinUAE and for a 1.0 core for my FPGAArcade.
Kamelito

@itix

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itix wrote: @amigadave The future of Amiga users is right here right now. What it is tomorrow is impossible to say because each user have different vision for the future.

Yep! I was just explaining my own future and inviting others to re-evaluate why they are supporting or promoting any of the NG Amiga systems.

For me, I no longer think that a medium performing Amiga-Like OS is the answer. I'll still use my MorphOS systems and stay informed on their progress, just as I will use my X1000 and stay informed about AmigaOS4.x. I'll use Windows or MacOSX for new games and demanding applications that can't be run as well, or as efficiently on any Amiga, or Amiga-Like system, and I will go back to AmigaOS3.x or earlier, for the fun and simplicity of computing and programming as only a hobby. I'll be satisfied with either emulation on modern and powerful hardware, like WinUAE on an i7 system, or I will check out the possibilities of newer and faster FPGA solutions to emulate in hardware the Amiga experience, while also supporting those developers who wish to add new features and software for original Amiga systems, as well as software and hardware improvements through FPGA systems, or emulation.

Every Amiga user is free to make their own choice. I have just changed directions and perspective.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .